mikkling

Slight thread-jack here -- does an overview of Gloranthan foodstuffs exist? Or is this information scattered all over?

This is interesting. Was Flintnail's payoff for his participation in the Pavis project/conspiracy simply proof-on-concept methodology on reanimating stone? He vanished fairly quickly after helping Pavis set up his thing within Paragua's walls, after all. By the by, is Flintnail the same mostali as Isidilian? Or are they two different individuals? I haven't found any source that states this unequivocally.

Getting back to Lord Pavis' plan -- We still don't know what Pavis was/is up to, but it seems likely that it is connected to the Man rune. We can further assume that Ginkizzie, the human-aldryami-mostali hybrid, and the cult of Flintnail, is the lynchpin of it. Ginkizzie has been there since the beginning, occupied with maintaining and, later on, repairing the magical geometry/architecture/sigil of the City. The cult of Flintnail holds rank over the cult of Pavis -- Flintnail leaders have seats in the leadership of the Pavis cult, but the reverse is not true. So, I'd say the cult of Flintnail is there to carry out the plan, and the cult of Pavis is there to supplement the cult of Flintnail. Whatever Pavis' plan is, it involves whatever Power is hidden at/under what is now the Cacodemon temple -- the Red Stick Circle is centred on it, with the maximal radius allowed by Paragua's walls. I also note that Pavis very deliberately let the Faceless Statue fall to precisely place its head, his future Villa, right on the circle. My take is that the Cacodemon temple is the place where the Eye of Wakboth landed and that it is the birthplace of Cacodemon and the race of ogres. I imagine the Godlearners of Feroda built Robcradle when they discovered the Power there, and Tapped it for their own ungodly ends. I don't doubt that Pavis saw a walled-in place of Power as a ready-made site for his experiment -- or he formulated his experiment based on that very resource. A very real possibility, as noted up-thread, is that Lord Pavis was the Muad'dib to some EWF Bene Gesserit Man rune conspiracy and groomed for this very purpose. Witness the Uz of Dagori Inkarth. Why would they send a non-negligible portion of their population, supported by heavy magics, to a ruined city in the middle of nowhere? What great rewards could the ragged human survivors possibly promise them that could justify that move? Was it the case that Jarkanita Ab or her underlings was aware of the Man rune conspiracy, having opted out of it when it was proposed to her by the conspirators (they obviously already had humans, aldryami, and mostali in on it), and then saw the chance to seize the experiment for herself when asked for aid by the survivors? EDIT: One of Jarkanita Ab's main concerns is breaking the Trollkin Curse -- having the Original Man available is likely to be a major boon to that project. Given that nothing of importance has been reported on either side since the troll invasion of Pavis except for sporadic violence means that neither the Flintnailers nor the trolls have met with any noticeable success.

I'm not so sure that he is, in fact, a deity. In P:GtA, the cult provides no rune magic. I think he is still a mortal, biding his time inside his pretty pink stasis chamber.

And This is interesting. So, stacking assumptions on each other here, can we assume that Pavis' plan to become or create the Original Man is connected to some idea of a Green Age "humanist" Utopia?

Still, 15+ years seems a long time, unless they are awaiting a particularly auspicious date. Also, I don't think the Lunars care a lot about (boosting) the power of Pavis; it's not as if he is going to be a great asset to the Empire. I think they primarily want to pacify/lunarise the city and, as a bonus, gain access to Pavis' EWF magics. Thus, I think the time it takes is a rather precise measure of how unimportant the matter is to the Provincial Army. If they believed it was a matter of great importance and urgency, they would have poured more resources into the project.

Marrying Pavis to the Red Moon is the official story, and I'm sure most of the straight Lunars believe it, but there seems to be a lack of urgency to the project. Nothing happens on this front between 1610 and 1625 when Argrath White Bull liberates the city. And the cult of Pavis wasn't exactly eager to make it happen -- instead, they were stalling. Thus, I don't really see a conflict between Ginkizzie and the priests of Pavis -- Ginkizzie has had centuries to make sure that the Pavis priests are faithful supporters or at least not harmful to the plan. If we assume that there is a Gbaji conspiracy among the lunars, I don't think they care much about Pavis -- they want control over Cacodemon's birthplace, and access to the Eye of Wakboth (now that they have learned of its existence). And thus neither the Lunars or the Pavisites invested much into the marriage. I don't doubt that the dwarfs are pulling the strings, but I think Pavis is a willing partner in their plan (as far as he knows the plan). It seems Pavis retired to his crystal palace quite voluntarily -- Flintnail had already left, Ginkizzie was only about 30 years old, and I doubt that the remaining dwarfs were powerful enough to be able to command Pavis. I wonder if the Plan requires Pavis to remain mortal (Grandfather Mortal's defining trait). That would explain why he has been pottering about in his stasis chamber instead of gaining immortality, like a proper superhero/godling. I also note that P:GtA portrays the cult of Pavis as strictly sorcerous -- and allied with the materialist-atheist-sorcerous dwarfs. Is there an anti-theist materialist-humanist agenda to Pavis' Plan -- the Man rune as secular-civilized humanism? Both elves and trolls have been present a long time, but there is no mention of Pavis/Flintnail attempts of diplomacy, treaties or alliance with them. But God Learners were evidently welcome, given that they were given a settlement in the city.

Good ideas all around! I like the idea of Pavis as a tragic failure, and his priesthood a pointless remnant of his shortcomings. Well, he is/was not a complete failure; he did do some extraordinary things, even though he might not have been as successful a hero as he wanted. Actually, if we assume that Pavis' plan was simply to found a city, he succeeded quite spectacularly, although that seems a rather low-key ambition for such a powerful man. I also like the Mostali plot (we all know they are the real puppet masters). The very fact that Ginkizzie has remained in a ruined city for 600-700 years indicates that he has something keeping him there (hope/the Plan). Or, he could simply have nowhere else to go -- a half-mostali elf-human abomination might not be particularly welcome with the dwarfs. But to counter that point, he *is* half-mostali -- and half a mostali might be better than no mostali in the eyes of lesser dwarfs, given that full mostali are hard to come by these days. Another thing that strikes me as odd is that none of Pavis' daughters make a name for themselves; none of them founds a dynasty and there is no mention of descendants. They are laconically dismissed as "unsuited to rule". They "began the cult of Pavis" and then disappear from history. Though, I note that Ginkizzie also did/does not (overtly) hold secular power. Given Pavis' Man rune mastery, he should have had little problem producing puissant progeny, and so their lack of secular strength seems to have been intentional on his side. Perhaps he wanted faithful servants rather than heroes with ideas of their own? Whether or not his Plan is to become or create the Original Man, it stands to reason that he was playing a quite long game -- he must have needed his cult to amass power; he did nothing noticeable for 80 years after retiring to his crystal sanctuary until Jaldon came and messed things up. Of course, fighting Thog probably drained a bit of power as well. That also means that Pavis might very well still be playing his game. Why would he need the Flintnail cult? One answer that comes to mind is that Pavis needed Ginkizzie to maintain (and, now, repair) the magical circle/diagram Pavis inscribed using the Faceless Statue before it collapsed -- the magical infrastructure needed to channel/contain/Harmonize the power from the city's inhabitants and/or the place of Power on Ogre Island, the very centre of the circle. P:GtA says that "centuries of warfare and magic have left a twisted and warped ruin of a city. Ancient and incomprehensible magics are at work here. Repeated attempts to study the mysteries of the Rubble have ended in frustration and failure, including the recent attempts of the Lunar Magicians. As Ginkizzie once remarked to a Lunar scholar after reading his treatise concerning the Rubble, 'You know very little, and everything you know is wrong'." It might be the case that once the nomads wreck the circle, the God Learner descendants on the Island start getting slowly corrupted by the Power there (Robcradle was smashed before the effect became noticeable). By 1200 ST, they are consorting with demons, and a Chaos Market has appeared. By 1500, the residents are a tribe of ogres.

Slave collars! If such are not available, gagging and immobilising prisoners makes it quite difficult for them to cast spells.

If we posit that Ogre Island is the birthplace of the ogre race, then they might retain legends about it, especially if ogres have lived in the vicinity ever since. Not that they are going to tell anyone, but their machinations will draw upon that secret. In the scenario Troubled Waters, it is stated that the ogres have recently divined the presence of the Eye, and that it is their actions that have provoked the gorp plague. And the Krarshti that came with the Lunars have been busy tunnelling through the Devil's Playground. So, the conspiracy has been active. The God Learners might have divined something about the place, since they built Robcradle on top of it. I'm leaning towards the idea that the area around Ogre Island is a place of Power -- magic in general is potent there, not only chaos (but the presence of the Eye means that the risk of corruption is non-negligible). The Pavis/Flintnail cult might also have divined something about it after the city was established -- and it seems like at least some Pavisites did become corrupted in their desperation. In Pavis: Gateway to Adventure, the God Learner settlement on Cradlesnatch Island has turned into Sorcerer’s Island by 1200 ST ("this fortied settlement is home to the Jrusteli descendants. They are feared by the other inhabitants of the city and have turned to evil demons [Fiends of Cacodemon, perhaps?] to defend themselves against the nomads"). There is also a Chaos Market within Pavis at this time. Also mentioned is Jokat Pulos the Dark Priest who died defending the Pavis Temple when Toras Joran cracked it. Presumably he was part of a mentioned group of humans experimenting with the powers of Darkness and Hell. I don't know if this by itself is indication of corruption or indication of needing the powers of Darkness and Hell to defend against Chaos or both of those things. But by human standards it definitely seems out of the ordinary. It seems even the trolls were affected. "One group of rebellious trolls is known to have worshipped at black stone altars topped by impaling spikes". Sounds odd, even by troll standards. By 1500, "a tribe of ogres reside [on Ogre Island] and summon Chaos demons in unholy rituals at this temple. At times they extract tribute from all the residents of Pavis". If there is a tribe of ogres powerful enough to exact tribute from the humans during the troll occupation, they are not gonna disappear once Pavis is reopened in the 1550s. It gets even more fun if we assume that the ogre tribe are descendants of the sorcerers. The Chaos Market still exists, where humans hire chaos mercenaries to protect themselves from trolls. The Lunars in general probably know nothing about the Eye, but the ogre-krarshti-gbaji-conspirators in the Provincial Army do know that there is a Chaos Nest beneath the Big Rubble -- I guess Pavis ogres initiated contact with Lunar ogres/chaos worshippers after Pavis was reopened in the 1550s. I am a bit annoyed that we know next to nothing about what the Pavis/Flintnail/Ginkizzie cult is up to -- or Lord Pavis' motivations and plans. We know he built an extravagant city, but why? He retires into his crystal tomb [stasis chamber?] -- why? He was a master of the Man rune -- he crossbred mostali and human (Ginkizzie -- still alive), himself a half-elf. He was a magus from the EWF, aided by mostali -- there has to be something more to it: a grand plan or mytho-magical experiment. Perhaps his plans and his priesthood was simply upset/stymied/put on hold by Jaldon and his nomads, and then by trolls. Has his plan been irrevocably lost, himself a tragic failure, with the surviving priesthood simply clinging on to meaningless traditions? Or is Pavis still alive/not dead/undead, and the priesthood remember the secrets and still try to realise the plan? Or is Ginkizzie, the grandson of Pavis, the real mastermind, mover, and shaker of Pavis' plan?

The proximity of the Eye of Wakboth and Ogre Island, and Cacodemon being a part of the Devil's INT, makes for an interesting connection. Now, Ogre Island/Devil's Playground could have been someplace else during the Great Darkness, dragged into its present location by Waha's Net. What if Ogre Island is the birthplace of Cacodemon? The Devil gets squelched by the Block, and parts of it fly off. The Eye of Wakboth, with some offal of Wakboth, lands somewhere, and Cacodemon spawns from the Eye. Or, the Eye IS Cacodemon. Though, the Cacodemon write-up says he was driven to the Hero Plane, and the Eye is still in the middle world. Or is it deep enough into Gata that it is no longer in the middle world? From the Cult Compendium: "the ogre race claims it originated during the Great Darkness when a band of people, perhaps human, chose his disorderly way as the guide to their survival. Since then, all ogres have had connections with the demon." So, is Ogre Island where this happened? The wretched band of people near the landing spot or the Eye itself start worshipping Cacodemon to save themselves. At some point, the Eye starts burrowing to its resting place far beneath nowadays Devil's Playground. Or perhaps it is still be burrowing downwards into the heart of Gata? Given that the Zola Fel river valley is fertile and has always been populated, it is reasonable to assume that ogres have always been present among the humans up and down the river in the vicinity of Ogre Island. Oll, the Pocharngo priest, could reasonably be one of the original group of wretched humans that bathed in the offal of the Devil, given how ancient he is.

I note with some interest that the Grotto of Pocharngo (Troubled Waters) is directly connected to the Eye of Wakboth. Is this connection more than physical? Is Pocharngo in fact a part of the Devil, like Cacodemon? I also note that the chaos priest Oll seems to predate Robcradle (he has been there "for time beyond memory"). I think it is safe to assume that the Cacodemon temple on Ogre Island is also ancient. So, the God Learners abandon Feroda and build a settlement right on top of a Chaos Nest. Paragua and the giants build walls around it. Lord Pavis builds a city there -- with a Chaos/Broo Market. Trolls, known defenders against chaos, invade and seal the city. The Lunars (unwittingly or not) bring Krarsht to Pavis -- did Lunar Krarsht worshippers and ogres initiate the invasion of Prax to get close to this Chaos Nest? I think it might be time to write an updated version of my old Eye of Wakboth conspiracy and make a campaign out of it... Orlanthi and Lunars (the Coders, perhaps) working clandestinely together to root out the Gbaji conspirators in the Lunar administration. But the Gbaji conspiracy isn't local to Pavis -- it goes much higher, all the way up to power-hungry-and-secretly-Krarshti Tatius. Following the leads from Pavis, the players must work hard to convince anti-chaos Lunars in the provincial army (Fazzur?) to help them. In the end, they get the intel that allows Kallyr and her group to infiltrate the Reaching Moon ceremony. Not a bad campaign. Sorry for the thread jack, but thanks for inspiring me!

Isn't that Ethal Rist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethal

Aw, I was already speculating about Lord (Lady?) Ethel Rist, famous Rokari heroquester desperately trying to hide that she is female...

Ethelrist? I thought it was Ethilrist.