BRP Mecha

[RosenMcStern]

This is a possibility, but not a certainty. The spirit of BRP Mecha was that of providing you with a tool to play Anime Mecha action (not Battletech), which implies supporting a very broad spectrum of possibilities, plenty of variations and at least two sub-genres which are as complete as an entire game. While an example can be useful to understand the mechanics, it can in no way replace a good, flexible set of rules.

"Linking" the rules to an example settings may work for you plain vanilla fantasy game, but it is still rather uncertain whether it would be compatible with Mecha D100. In other words, if you expect something like Robotech or Battletech, you will probably not find it in Mecha D100.

[Atgxtg]

That is the double edges sword of rules for a particular setting. The better the rules are tailored to the setting the harder is is to take them out of the setting to use elsewhere. Conversely, the more generic the rules, the easier they are to adapt, but the more work will be required to use them for any particular setting. 

High-Tech (Mecha included) is worse than most genres in this regard, since the assumptions on what technology will be able to do vary greatly from one sci-fi setting to another. 

[RosenMcStern]

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

High-Tech (Mecha included) is worse than most genres in this regard, since the assumptions on what technology will be able to do vary greatly from one sci-fi setting to another. 

Yes... and no. Anime mecha is a rather codified genre where, as long as you stay in one of the two main sub-genres, the effects technology can achieve are rather predictable. The exceptions are few (ex. Evangelion). In a real robot game, you fire guns which run out of ammunition. Be it 40mm shells or pulses of Minovsky particles, the effect is similar. In a super robot game, you fire punches and beams, and very ineffective missiles. And if you have a "final" attack, you can call it flaming sword, trinity energy or getter shine, it is basically something that sucks up all of your energy and terminates the bad guy if he has the courtesy of remaining still.

Too much detail really does not help here; as you mentioned. Over the years, all details of Minovsky physics have been explained. Putting all of this fluff in a book would certainly make it a pleasant read and inspire you to run a fantastic Universal Century game, but it would also give you the false impression that the rules would not work for Macross. Whereas they would.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, but what I mean is the scale of those effects. We saw this to some extent with BRP Mecha. It looked like you originally wanted to be able to rate everything on the same scale, but had to use two different scales for power (MW and GW), depending upon which anime you wanted to run.  

 

Oh, and speaking of Macross, one of the house rules I came up with for BRP Mecha to help match up performance with listed data was an "Overtechnology" ability. All it did was bump up the stats for an item a step. It was good when dealing with advanced era items that had the same "stats" as modern items, but performed better in the anime. 

Conversely I had an "Obsolete" houserule that bumped stats down a step. That way I could put WWII era Maus Tanks (with 126 mm cannon) and a 70s era Leopard 2 tank (120mm cannon) in the same battle without giving them the same "120mm gun. 

[Canis latrans popus]

On 8/28/2018 at 12:47 PM, seneschal said:

I guess my brain doesn’t work that way.  I need something more like “10 build points gives you X units of energy, which will power Y devices” (depending on how much juice they require).  I don’t want Aftermath! levels of complexity, but I do need a consistent system to work with.

I did make a massive spreadsheet that could output usable stats for BRP Mecha from techspecs from their anime. I was also working on an automated form-fillable mecha sheet that the spreadsheet could output to. I didn't get enough interest IRL to do a mecha game, and I started picking at the rules and stats, looking to rebuild them into something less fiddly feeling.

But I really don't think the game as written works for cross-franchise, or even intra-franchise in the case of long running serial franchises like Macross, mecha.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Canis latrans popus said:

I did make a massive spreadsheet that could output usable stats for BRP Mecha from techspecs from their anime. I was also working on an automated form-fillable mecha sheet that the spreadsheet could output to. I didn't get enough interest IRL to do a mecha game, and I started picking at the rules and stats, looking to rebuild them into something less fiddly feeling.

I did something similar

1 hour ago, Canis latrans popus said:

But I really don't think the game as written works for cross-franchise, or even intra-franchise in the case of long running serial franchises like Macross, mecha.

It could with a few tweaks. {art of the problem is the linear scale for some of the stats. It's great for ease of conversion, but restricts the playable range. I've experimented with using a doubling progression for the stats, like how BRP./RQ/Superworld does for SIZ and it opens thing up a bit.

I've also played around with ditching POW point pools and instead giving the mecha generators that can spend up to a certain amount of POW per turn. 

 

[Canis latrans popus]

Yeah. It seems like the linear scaling causes the lack of granularity that made certain mecha that should be stronger have effectively the same stats. My next attempt with BRP mecha is going to use something like a Heat track instead of POW.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Canis latrans popus said:

Yeah. It seems like the linear scaling causes the lack of granularity that made certain mecha that should be stronger have effectively the same stats. My next attempt with BRP mecha is going to use something like a Heat track instead of POW.

The granularity problem is not due to linear scaling, but simply how big the increments are. It you use smaller increments you get more granularity, but possibly at the loss of playability, and even of realism. A weapon with ten times the energy isn't necessarily ten times as effective, not is a 105 kW engine much more powerful than a 102kW engine.

I just put energy (POW), thrust (STR) and other things on the "doubles every 8 points" scale that SIZ uses. It keeps things constient and makes it easier to  put everything on the same scale. 

 

As far as a Heat track goes, well it's very Battledroids/Mechwarrior, but has even one mecha anime series ever made heat dissipation a major limitation on what the mecha could do? 

Personally, I think that for the most part POW isn't a problem and most machines are designed with enough POW to handle their normal needs. That's how the egnineers do it in real life. Those shows that do put a POW limit typically give the machines a limited fuel/battery supply or a time limit (like the 60 seconds limit once the umbilical cable is cut in Evagellion), or have a weapon so powerful that it can't be used with most other systems (the main weapons in Yamato and Macross). 

 

So I don't think we really need to track POW points or Heat Points to make the mecha from most shows playable. 

 

 

 

[RosenMcStern]

I do not really see how all this is supposed to be a problem in game. I understand your desire for coherence, but the focus for the rules of a RPG should be on how the machines perform in battle, not on keeping power levels proportional and coherent with the physical dimensions provided.

STR is arranged on a logarithmic scale, as in all BRP games, to allow the resistance table to work. The reason why is that sometimes mechas wrestle each other, and STR vs STR rolls may be necessary.

On the other hand, no mecha will ever plot its POW against another one's POW or Power Points, so why should POW become logarithmic, too ? POW is used only to limit the amount of energy available at a given time for a given Mecha, thus limiting - for instance - Getter Robot to one single use of Getter Shine per battle. A linear characteristics is more than enough tor this. For most real robots, POW is irrelevant, as their weaponry has an independent power or ammunition source and will run out of ammo after a fixed number of shots, no matter how much POW the mecha generator can output. Even the few weapons which actually draw power from the core, like a gundam light sabres, do it by simply transferring a charge which corresponds to a fixed amount of energy, and should thus be treated as "ammunition" rather than "power output per time unit".

Barring the case of wrestling, coherence among the stats provided for mechas is irrelevant, as it will not influence how the various machines actually perform in combat. What is really important for mecha games is that the amounts of armour and damage be balanced, so that the battles you see in the various anime can be reproduced faithfully. And so far I have seen no one commenting on that point.

 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

 I understand your desire for coherence, but the focus for the rules of a RPG should be on how the machines perform in battle, not on keeping power levels proportional and coherent with the physical dimensions provided.

Becuase how give machines perfomr in battle is often best repsented by those values, and putting them on the same scale helps to do that. 

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

so why should POW become logarithmic, too ?

Because it can simplfy bookkeeping and mecha might be in situation where they do pit POW against POW or even STR or SIZ. It depends on how you go with it.

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

POW is used only to limit the amount of energy available at a given time for a given Mecha,

And a POW stat threshold allows for that without having to go into tracking POW points. Think of it like getting rid of fatigue in RQ3. YOu don't have to worry about small POW expenditures interferring with the big guns, just the reverse.

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

thus limiting - for instance - Getter Robot to one single use of Getter Shine per battle. A linear characteristics is more than enough tor this

Which then could be handled more elegantly without POW point then,. Just make it single (later double) use. 

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

. For most real robots, POW is irrelevant, as their weaponry has an independent power or ammunition source and will run out of ammo after a fixed number of shots, no matter how much POW the mecha generator can output. Even the few weapons which actually draw power from the core, like a gundam light sabres, do it by simply transferring a charge which corresponds to a fixed amount of energy, and should thus be treated as "ammunition" rather than "power output per time unit".

Which again gos to show why POW points are needed for most designs. Just give the weapons a clip with anumber of shots. Or, hollywood clips in some anime. 

5 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Barring the case of wrestling, coherence among the stats provided for mechas is irrelevant, as it will not influence how the various machines actually perform in combat. What is really important for mecha games is that the amounts of armour and damage be balanced, so that the battles you see in the various anime can be reproduced faithfully. And so far I have seen no one commenting on that point.

Okay, I will comment on it. For starters how faithful BRP Mocha is at reproudcing a given series,  depends on the anime. Some weapons, often the same weapon, can be more effective against a given armor one series than in another. That's just the effect of multiple people doing anime series and having multiple takes on things.

 One of BPR Mecha's strengths though it that a GM can easily fine tune or shift the damages up or down a little to better reflect a given series. That makes it very adaptable and customizable. So if A GM thinks a weapon is underpowered ot too powerful in BRP they can adjust the damage die pretty easily enough.

 

BRP Mecha is a good game. One of the better anime RPGs too. Coomperable to later versions of Mekton, but with BRP's treasure trove og addtions and options to back it up. I think it's biggest "fault" such as is, is that, well, gone. Is Revolution Mecha still in the pipeline? 

 

 

[RosenMcStern]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Becuase how give machines perfomr in battle is often best repsented by those values, and putting them on the same scale helps to do that. 

I cannot think of a situation where this is true.

Quote

Because it can simplfy bookkeeping and mecha might be in situation where they do pit POW against POW or even STR or SIZ. It depends on how you go with it.

Ditto. There is no situation in which a Mecha could use its POW on the resistance table. If you disagree, please provide an example.

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Some weapons, often the same weapon, can be more effective against a given armor one series than in another. 

Example ?

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Is Revolution Mecha still in the pipeline? 

It is, but it will require a lot of changes from BRP Mecha, so it may take years. Other titles have been prioritized. Do not forget that BRP Mecha was originally to be released late 2009 / early 2010, and it actually appeared in 2013.

PS - Revolution has no POW, so the above considerations will not apply to Mecha D100 in any case. 

[Atgxtg]

16 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

I cannot think of a situation where this is true.

Speed, and Performance are derived from those stats. You don't have a airplane or a flying mech traving at supersonic speeds without the power to do so. Armor effectivness has a lot ot do with thickness.  Accleration and top speed actually translate into game terms.  If somebody knows something about the math they can figure out a lot about mecha that list real world data. 

16 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Ditto. There is no situation in which a Mecha could use its POW on the resistance table. If you disagree, please provide an example.

Sure, a wheeled mech is in a tug of war with another mech. Horsepower/KIloWatts are POW, not STR. Likewise with a tank. So having a way to use POW or at least to covert POW to STR in some fashion (STR=2/3 POW is probably the simplest real world rule of thumb that almost works. Probably works better with a +24 after it).

 

16 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Example ?

Compare how effective the GU-11 55mm round is in Macross to how any 55mm round is against any modern tank or anime tank. Outside of Macross 55mm is a too weak forfrontal armor. 

 

16 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

It is, but it will require a lot of changes from BRP Mecha, so it may take years. Other titles have been prioritized. Do not forget that BRP Mecha was originally to be released late 2009 / early 2010, and it actually appeared in 2013.

That's cool. As long as it's still in the works. Timing could just about be right for when when my Pendragon campaign ends, too.

16 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

PS - Revolution has no POW, so the above considerations will not apply to Mecha D100 in any case. 

For the most part, you don't need POW points. You just need what mecha can do and how many times before it runs out f ammo, needs a new barrel, overheats, or needs to refuel. 

[Jeffrywith1e]

Do you suppose the new SRD may allow this book to resurface? a 2nd edition?

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, Jeffrywith1e said:

Do you suppose the new SRD may allow this book to resurface? a 2nd edition?

Given that @RosenMcStern is in the business of publishing a mecha game for his in-house game Revolution D100, I think this will be unlikely.

[RosenMcStern]

Joerg is correct here. And let me take advantage of this little threadomancy to clarify a couple of points.

• BRP Mecha is a "genre pack", that is a refinement of an existing generic tool in order to provide a more focused "tool" for the production of your own setting or the emulation of an existing IP. In specific, it allows you to play Gundam, Macross, Mazinger, Voltron, Code Geass and such with modified BGB rules.
• In the context of 2009, it made sense to produce genre packs for the BGB. Today... less so. As you have seen, we have gone a different way and licensed a specific Mecha IP for the revival of this project.
• A portion of the rules present in BRP Mecha will be in Dynamic D100. However, only the "super robot" genre will be covered. The rules will not be immediately applicable to other mecha settings such as Robotech or Evangelion.
• Other parts of the rules have been incorporated in Revolution D100, which unlike other iterations of D100 includes vehicular combat in the core rules and Size Class instead of Size. All these were distinctive features of BRP Mecha that we should retrofit into other systems if we had any intention of using other systems. You can easily see that there would be extra pain and little gain in using any other OGL for a new BRP Mecha.

That said, there is room for other books about other aspects of the mecha genre. Gundams and Valkyries are still interesting tools for roleplaying, and Dynamic D100 will not cover them. We might want to do something with non-Nagai mechas. However, it is too early to determine which route we would take: a genre pack for real robots? another licensed IP from the land of the RIsing Sun? something original we come up with? This is certainly a choice we will not make before the evening of April 30th 2020, when the crowdfunding for Dynamic D100 is over. And perhaps even later. 

[RosenMcStern]

Oh and please do not discuss the pros and cons of the Chaosium SRD here. There is a thread for this, and it is possible that more will appear in the future. It is ok for me if someone uses BRP Mecha as an example of a past project, in order to assess how the BRP OGL makes it easier or harder for it to re-appear. But please do it in a Chaosium related thread, not in an Alephtar related one.

[Job]

@RosenMcStern I wish to reproduce Fin Funnels from UC/Gundam in BRP Mecha. I saw in one of the examples in the book about the usage of psi-guided drones in a battle between Tetsuro Rey and Rana Moone, but I can't find any rules about such a drone. I guess that Support Vehicle rules might have something to do with this. Any recommendation?

Another point is, in Gundam, shield breakage happened often, but the shield rule in BRP Mecha, shield is indestrictible. Any recommendation if I wish the shields to be destructible? I thought of giving the shield an AP/HP value and losing points when getting critical or special attack like normal BRP.