Magic Heavy Fantasy Supplements

[Robsbot]

UPDATE: I've picked up a huge load of supplements for high fantasy, high magic settings and wanted to share my findings. My original inquiry saved at the bottom of this post with my findings being posted below with the most useful at the top. All inclusive means it's a complete overhaul to the BRB for a fantasy setting containing Character Generation, Magic, Combat, Equipment, Spot Rules, Creatures, and in some cases Settings:

BRB: Well, you wouldn't be reading this if you weren't a BRP core book holder would you? For obvious reasons, It's a great idea to pick this up first!

Classic Fantasy: (All inclusive) Pick this ASAP if you're running a fantasy campaign. It's got a magic expansion, some rules and spell adjustments, and great overall content. It also contains rules for turning BRP more like D&D without levels. It's a bit more broad with little setting help but that's also what makes it great. You can plug something from this book into any fantasy setting!

Michael Moorcock's Elric!: (All inclusive) This book is fantastic. The BRB contains the sorcery system found in Elric! but Elric! expands everything about demons, binding elementals, and some great darker fantasy setting information as well as a great "good vs. evil" backbone that drives lots of high fantasy settings. If you don't like the sorcery rules or darker settings, put a bit lower on your buy list.

Runequest 6th Ed: (All inclusive) I feel this is a really good book. Like Classic Fantasy it contains adjustments to all aspects of the game but unlike Classic Fantasy I find it less modular. The rules are meant to be used together. Great new magic options, combat styles, and includes some setting options Classic Fantasy intentionally ignores.

The Green: (All inclusive) I have not purchased the main book yet but the Venturer's Guide supplements the existing BRB magic systems wonderfully. I can't imagine that The Green brings any less amazing adjustments / additions, plus it adds a highly regarded setting. I wouldn't pass on this one if you enjoy the magic presented in the BRB and Classic Fantasy.

The Bronze Grimoire: This is an Elric! supplement that expands upon sorcery immensely. You don't need the Elric! main book to find it useful as the entire base sorcery system is included in the BRB. Elric! just provides more setting and summoning / binding information. Again, if you don't really enjoy the Sorcery system put this a bit lower on your to buy list.

Unknown East: This is another Elric! supplement but this time the focus is on a more eastern setting. The main reason to buy this is the free form magic system. If none of the BRB power systems really inspire you this one should. If you're looking for something far from the BRP norm, put this very high on your to buy list.

BRP Witchcraft: This is actually one of my favorite fantasy BRP additions, but I put it at the bottom as it's very narrow in scope. If you want hermetic magic, stereotypical witches, or divine aligned (white and black) magic then this is absolutely the book for you. It adds some great adjustments to casters that make them INCREDIBLY fun to role play and with many more options at the cost of less raw power. It gives different options for achieving your goals like killing targets slowly with diseases instead of fireballs and ways to pervert, subvert, and convert society to your whims even when playing a white aligned warlock or witch. It's just a great supplement, pick it up.

The Magic Book: This is basically a copy of the RQ3 magic rules and you'd probably be better served finding a copy of the entire RQ3 ruleset. RQ6 does everything this book tries to do only slightly better but if RQ6 is too expensive for you then this could be useful. I find using them side by side to be useful as RQ3 magic was more restrictive but could be more powerful. Having a copy of both allows me to pick and choose parts of the systems I enjoy.

Note: Magic World is coming out in 2013 as well as a supplement named Advanced Sorcery. These should cover most of Elric! and the Bronze Grimoire, but in a more colorful high fantasy setting instead of the dark setting of Elric!. It may be worth waiting for Magic World to come out and I'll update this post as I acquire Magic World and a few other books suggested in the thread.

Hey guys,

BRP's magic system has left a little to be desired for my current campaign. I'm doing a magic / divine heavy fantasy campaign. Since Chaosium is having a huge sale I was wondering which supplements would be worth picking up.

I'm looking for:

Magic system adjustments

I heard bad things about brp witchcraft, basic magic, and the magic book. They are $5 right now (pdfs) so are they still worth picking up for that cheap? Why are they so bad? Would it be better to wait for magic world and the other supplement book (those look GREAT)

Creature / NPC expansion

Is basic creatures worth picking up? Are there any other type of monster manual type books that would be good for a high fantasy campaign?

Magic item additions

I'd like a good list of some magic items I could use in my campaign. Magic weapons, amulets, the like. Any suggestions?

General good fantasy books

Is Classic fantasy worth picking up? Also, although they may not be available from Chaosium, would a core setting book like Runequest be good to pick up, read, and adapt to my campaign?

Thanks for your time.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Robsbot

[ORtrail]

There is a section here on the upcoming Magic World for BRP. I have not been following it, but that might be what you are looking for. I do have the Basic Creatures PDF and it is handy versus sorting through my collection of BRP PDFs and printed RPGs.

[Mankcam]

Robsbot, for $5 I don't think you could go wrong with Witchcraft, its pretty good for what it sets out to do, describing psuedo-historical witchcraft magic, I personally quite like the product. Its not really vanilla fantasy though, its aimed at a more serious market, so it depends on what flavour you want your fantasy setting to be.

Basic Magic is the old RQ3 magic system, its okay for fantasy campaigns, but if you are after this you'll find it is portrayed better in the more recent versions, MRQ2/ LEGEND or RQ6. If you are only after the magic system I'ld buy the LEGEND pdf as its always extremely cheap (its still only $1 for the pdf at DrivethruRPG) as you'll get a better version of the RQ3 magic (in my opinion) as well as the whole LEGEND core rules for such a cheap price in case you want to try it out.

RuneQuest 6 is a more recent edition of those rules and designed to be played in the fantasy setting, its the best current product as far as content goes for a BRP fantasy variant, but it will be more expensive, or you could just wait for Magic World.

As far as creatures go, if you're sticking with BRP as opposed to LEGEND or RQ6 then you can't go past the Basic Creatures book, it is the old RQ Creatures book and covers alot of ground. Also possibly of interest may be the Call of Cthulhu creatures books which are easily ported over for dark sword and sorcery fantasy settings. The most recent publication was called 'Malleus Monstrorum", although early versions may be cheaper, such as the "Ye Book of Monstres Vol 1 & 2"

If you are after D&D style fantasy with BRP rules then it appears that Classic Fantasy has been well received by many in this forum. So I guess its up to whatever your tastes are ...

Edited November 26, 2012 by Mankcam

[Robsbot]

Thanks guys. The PDF's are so cheap right now I think I'm going to go ahead and pick up The Magic Book, Basic Magic, Basic Creatures, Witchcraft, and Classic Fantasy. At the very least they could give me ideas for how to add to / tweak the current system in the big gold book. Plus I saw that Magic World was coming early 2013 and the supplements not until some time in 2013. As I don't want to wait that long I can always adapt my campaign after they come out or scrap it and start a new one. Thanks again for the advice guys.

Edit: I will also be picking up Runequest 6th Edition as it is only $25 at drivethrurpg.com at the moment. Hard to pass that up! Even if I don't add any of the systems the ideas always help.

Has anyone ever tried to run a fantasy campaign with just the magic from the big gold book, and if so how did it work out?

Edited November 26, 2012 by Robsbot

[Mankcam]

Oh and I forgot to add that Mythic Iceland is an exceptionally good product, well worth the outlay. It is perfect for Norse sagas and such, but much of it can be used in other fantasy settings with some minor tweaking. I really dig the use of Allegiance with the Gods, that concept can easily be ported over to fantasy pantheons to good effect. There's also a great little section on Creatures as well as Icelandic Rune Magic, lots of fantasy goodies to be had in this product, more than I have time to describe.

As far as BRP BGB Magic goes I have only used Psychic Powers for a Mesmerist character in my Pulp Cthulhu setting and they work well. For my fantasy setting I tend to use my Gloranthan resources and as such the RQ magic, or a variant of it.

I played Stormbringer and the magic worked well for that setting, and BGB Sorcery is based from that so it should work. I see no reason why the BGB Magic won't work. No doubt you will want to grab the Advanced Sorcery sourcebook for Magic World once its published, I think it will have a few goodies for you.

Picking up RuneQuest was a good move, you'll be happy you did, its a great fantasy game (in all its editions).

Edited November 26, 2012 by Mankcam

[Robsbot]

So I picked up all the supplements and have spent some time going through them.

Witchcraft is AMAZING. Talisman rules (not exactly anything exceptional, but still cool), potion rules (again, pretty intuitive but nice to have a guideline), and hermetical magic with an alignment system? Awesome. I highly recommend it to anyone looking to spice up magic items, potions, or the casting system from BRP.

Classic Fantasy seems to unbalance casters a bit, but I can always pick and choose what I let my PC's have access to. I had crafted several spells (notably animate dead) myself that are pretty spot on with Classic Fantasy did and I like some of the class specific small abilities it gives. Plenty of monsters as well. It's just overall a great book to buy for people looking for a fantasy campaign.

Basic Creatures does what it's supposed to. It's a pretty solid book of bad guys for your romps in the fantasy world. Good buy.

The Magic Book was actually INCREDIBLY disappointing as I expected the most mileage out of it. The magic "classes" seem clunky and Classic Fantasy seems to handle magic classes much better. Some of the spells just seem terrible or borderline unusable. The restrictions on the magical classes are just horrid and really unjustified, although they could easily be ignored. However, the Ritual magic is really cool. I like the idea of group ritual magic as that's something that I feel a lot of mainstream RPG's don't touch but they seem useful, thematic, and fun to RP. Since I got the PDF so cheap the book was almost worth it for that section alone and the few other spells I'll use for inspiration / tweaking.

I haven't actually purchased RQ yet, but is the magic section similar to The Magic Book or did they tweak it significantly? I've read a few reviews and it seems they did some decent changes from the RQ3 The Magic Book is based off of but I'm not sure if it works similarly or not.

What edition of stormbringer would you suggest I pick up? I really like the sorcery system from BRP and any expansion of that would be great.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Robsbot

[Chaot]

Witchcraft is AMAZING.

Yes. It really is. I don't know who was saying bad things about it. Also note that it was written to work in conjunction with Classic Fantasy. One thing that I really like about it is that it's stated up for both Magic and Sorcery, so that one can choose the one's preference.

Had I seen this earlier I would have told you to skip the Magic Book and Basic Magic. Creatures is decent for the critters, but tracking down a copy of the rq3 boxed would at least give you something that has some quality production value.

I've more thoughts on the subject, but alas, they must wait. I'm being summoned for errands most mundane.

[Robsbot]

I would love to hear any thoughts you have on any supplements that would be worthwhile. Even if I don't use the entire setting / world rules the magic supplements and some odd rules here and there are always useful for inspiration at the very least. Every little bit helps.

The Magic Book was semi-worth what I paid for it, but I just can't believe how bad it was. While BRP's magic system is rather simplistic it's rather elegant at the same time. The Magic Book just takes a hammer to the whole thing for very little benefit. I would have been much happier with just a big book of new spells and rituals for the styles presented in BRP and maybe the addition of spirit and divine spells without all the junk they threw in with it. But for ~$6 I can't be too upset.

Current books I'm considering: Runequest 6th ed., Stormbringer 4th ed., Mythic Iceland, and Elric!. I keep seeing references to the Bronze Grimoire. Is this part of the Elric! supplements and would it be useful by itself or should I purchase both it and Elric!?

[rust]

There are also some nice things in the forum's download section, one I would

recommend is Fergo's work on Middle Earth magic, which has a somewhat dif-

ferent feel than most BRP based magic:

ME-BRP - Chapter 7 - Magic-image free version - Downloads - Basic Roleplaying Central

[Puck]

At the risk of being self-promoting; the Green has a slightly different take on magic while using the basic idea of the BGB. You can get the just of it in the Adventurers Guide for free here:

Venturers Guide (The Green) - Downloads - Basic Roleplaying Central

The basic take on magic is at the end of the supplement.

The Green Monograph has a number of similar traditions in it as well .

[Robsbot]

Awesome! Thanks guys.

I kept seeing The Green was highly recommended but I had no idea what contents it had. Another take on the magic system is certainly not a bad thing in my eyes!

Edit: Nice illusion magic adjustments. I was thinking of the size adjustments for an illusion specialist myself. Illusionist rogues / bards are absolutely my favorite class. I'll be picking it up shortly to contribute to your work.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Robsbot

[Chaot]

You mention Stormbringer, so here's the skinny on it. The Sorcery system in the BGB is from the Elric! book and Stormbringer 5th edition. The earlier editions of Stormbringer don't have the Sorcery spell system. All versions of it, and Elric!, have a demon summoning system. Mongoose now has the rights to sell these pdfs, so if you're interested in taking a look, there's a place to start. I recommend Elric!, as I find it to be the cleanest presentation of the rules, although Stormbringer 5e is the content of Elric! with more setting information (and a few things like the Fly skill and additional weapons) added.

The Elric! line had a lot of magic content published. Biggest single source is probably the Bronze Grimoire, which had things like Runic magic, Necromancy and a whole slew of magic items. There is also the supplement, The Unknown East, which has a nifty 'verb' + 'noun' free form magic system.

The good news is, this stuff is going to be revisited in the upcoming Magic World books. However, if you you like Demon Summoning and wouldn't mind picking up a few more magic systems you should seriously think about picking up the Corum book from Chaosium's website. Elric!'s demon summoning rules has a bias for demons as bound weapons. Corum undoes that a bit with it's Pact system. I think it's a big improvement and now use it for my games.

Corum has a Chaotic Meld magic system in which individual spell effects are combined to form new spells. They have a Lawful magic system that centers around creating lawful artifacts. They have a brief but substantial run down on things like Elemental Tattoos, Fetishes, and, um, something else that I'm forgetting right now. Note that currently Corum is only available in dead tree and only from the print run that Chaosium is selling.

An excellent and free addition to the Elric! line is Lawful Virtues and Focus Skills. They can be found on this site and over at stormbringerrpg.com in the 'Gods of Law' pdf. Really worth a read.

[Robsbot]

Awesome, thanks!

I see a couple versions of Elric over at Drivethrurpg. The ones you mention wouldn't happen to be these would it?

Michael Moorcock's Elric! - Mongoose | Classic Moorcock | DriveThruRPG.com

The Bronze Grimoire - Mongoose | Classic Moorcock | DriveThruRPG.com

I've been doing a lot of review reading and searching but all the threads I've read assumed a bit of familiarity with stormbringer/elric or runequest. Since I currently have zero experience with either you guys have been a great help.

[Chaot]

Those are they. Again, a lot of the material is being repurposed for Magic World, which will be out soon. But those are two really solid books there.

Actually, since you have the BGB, I think you have most of the sorcery spells that are in Elric! What you would be getting is Demon Summoning rules and a combat option, Riposte. Demon Summoning rules are also present in 'Chronicles of Future Earth' but I don't remember how comprehensive they are. Bronze Grimoire is a good buy with an expanded Sorcery spell list, expanded Demon Ability list, a bunch of magic items as well as Runic and Necromantic magic.

Since Puck mentioned The Green, I'll add that his Glyph magic system is cool and his setting even cooler. I dig The Green.

Also, since you mention magic items I'm going to point you at Lucky Trinkets, Heirlooms and Named Items.

Once you've collected all of these systems, the trick will be in deciding which one to use and how to use it!

[Mankcam]

It's also worth considering some of the BRP Mythic Earth setting books published by Alephetar. Merrie England is a great setting for fantasy medieval games, as is Crusaders Of The Amber Coast and Stupor Mundi. If you want a more ancient setting then ROME is great, and Asian fantasy can also be portrayedwell with Celestial Empire and Dragon Lines.

[GianniVacca]

Has anyone ever tried to run a fantasy campaign with just the magic from the big gold book, and if so how did it work out?

I have, but only for low-magic settings. For magic-rich settings, I use the RuneQuest rules.

[Questbird]

Actually, since you have the BGB, I think you have most of the sorcery spells that are in Elric! What you would be getting is Demon Summoning rules and a combat option, Riposte. Demon Summoning rules are also present in 'Chronicles of Future Earth' but I don't remember how comprehensive they are. Bronze Grimoire is a good buy with an expanded Sorcery spell list, expanded Demon Ability list, a bunch of magic items as well as Runic and Necromantic magic.

Also, since you mention magic items I'm going to point you at Lucky Trinkets, Heirlooms and Named Items.

The Lucky Trinkets article is great thanks, Chaot!

The Bronze Grimoire isn't so much a new magic system (except for the rune magic), but it has a lot of cool spells. It's worth getting. Corum is really well-put together thing, though I haven't really used it in my campaign. I haven't tried the Green yet. If you just want spell lists, Call of Cthulhu's Dreamlands supplement is also a good source.

[Robsbot]

Riposte and demon summoning rules are enough to wrench free the 10$ the PDF will cost me for sure! I would love an expansion to the brb on demon summoning as I feel out of combat ritual magic is one of the most innovative things I've ever seen in a RPG system. That and the pact magic from D&D 3.5's magic supplement. I may work on a rough port of that one day.

I want to be able to go to my players, ask them what they want their character to do and maybe present them a few ideas and then use the systems for inspiration or help crafting their character. I seriously doubt I'll use one system in its entirety but I'll certainly have a demon summoning sorcerer NPC, a necromancer raising legions of skeletons, A fire and ice slinging arch mage, and probably everything inbetween during their adventures. The more systems I have the more I can check to see how balanced my ideas are and the more inspiration I have for both PC ideas and NPC ideas.

To research list: Everything Mankcam mentioned.

Current to buy list: Runequest 6th ed., Elric!, The Bronze Grimoire, Unknown East, Corum (although I'd like a PDF version so I may wait until Magic World and the Advanced Sorcery supplement and see what it does with the system), The Green.

Edited December 3, 2012 by Robsbot

[Robsbot]

I just wanted to pop back in and give a quick thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. I've got tons of great supplements now and tons of ideas and possibilities for future games. Thank all of you for answering all my annoying little questions and giving great advice!

I still have yet to get any books from Alephtar Games, mythic iceland, chronicles of future earth, and the full version of the green (but the supplement Puck posted was great!) so I've still got a bit to go but I've got a great base and some good books to look forward to picking up. Thanks again guys!

I'll be updating the OP with my findings for future reference.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Robsbot

[Chaot]

The Lucky Trinkets article is great thanks, Chaot!

Thanks QB! It's been met with a warm reception from my players. I need to get around to updating that thread.

Ok Robsbot, if you're interested, I've got some more to lay on ya. I almost feel like I'm doing a disservice to your bank account.

If you're looking for cults, Moon Design Publications' Cult Compendium is overwhelming. It's reprinted Glorantha material from RQ2 and is really excellent to steal ideas from. The Mongoose Elric line went down the cult path and there's a lot there as well. Pete Nash and Loz have done a really fantastic job with the line. Of note, tucked away in the Magic of the Young Kingdoms book is small section called Elemental Paths. (I think it's in the Magic of the Young Kingdoms book.) The closer you are aligned with an element, or the further down the path you are, the more you develop abilities related to the element. You also take on obligations to and personality traits of said element. That's a Charles Green system.

That ties nicely in with the magic system from Nephilim, which hermetical with a heavy dose of elementalism. Originally published in the core Nephilim book and tehn massively overhauled in Liber Ka, this system is scheduled to be republished through Chaosium by the author, John Snead.

And here I feel like I'm going over to the enemy, but 3rd edition Gurps Magic is a wonderful source to steal from.

And for something different, if you want to get your kung fu groove on, I highly recommend Dragon Lines. It's another Charles Green system. Actually, at the risk of embarrassing him, I recommend keeping your eye on Green. His stuff is really innovative.

Riposte and demon summoning rules are enough to wrench free the 10$ the PDF will cost me for sure! I would love an expansion to the brb on demon summoning as I feel out of combat ritual magic is one of the most innovative things I've ever seen in a RPG system. That and the pact magic from D&D 3.5's magic supplement. I may work on a rough port of that one day.

I'm very glad that you like Elric! If you have a chance, I hope you check out how it runs in general. A bit fuller than CoC, but still lightning fast during play. I really think BRP starts to sing when you allow skills over 100%. But that's another thread.

Corum (although I'd like a PDF version so I may wait until Magic World and the Advanced Sorcery supplement and see what it does with the system)

Sadly, I don't think it will ever exist and I haven't heard of Magic World bringing any of that stuff into the fold yet. (Although I would be very happy to be wrong. Please Ben? ) I can give you the run down on the Corum pact system though. It's fairly simple but very game changing.

[Robsbot]

Ok Robsbot, if you're interested, I've got some more to lay on ya. I almost feel like I'm doing a disservice to your bank account.

If you're looking for cults, Moon Design Publications' Cult Compendium is overwhelming. It's reprinted Glorantha material from RQ2 and is really excellent to steal ideas from. The Mongoose Elric line went down the cult path and there's a lot there as well. Pete Nash and Loz have done a really fantastic job with the line. Of note, tucked away in the Magic of the Young Kingdoms book is small section called Elemental Paths. (I think it's in the Magic of the Young Kingdoms book.) The closer you are aligned with an element, or the further down the path you are, the more you develop abilities related to the element. You also take on obligations to and personality traits of said element. That's a Charles Green system.

That ties nicely in with the magic system from Nephilim, which hermetical with a heavy dose of elementalism. Originally published in the core Nephilim book and tehn massively overhauled in Liber Ka, this system is scheduled to be republished through Chaosium by the author, John Snead.

Unfortunately I've hit my book budget for this holiday season so I've started a running "to purchase" list now.

I could absolutely use more cult ideas especially with the array of magical systems I plan to have scattered about my setting. I plan on making the different magical talents hail from different parts of the world so they'll each need a structural back end to fit into their societies.

I've also got both Nephilim and Liber Ka on my to buy list as well as from the book reviews and summaries I've read the magic system and setting seems quite awesome. I hadn't heard of the reprint though. Any idea on a time frame?

Edit: WAIT, is this it? http://www.chaosium.com/article.php?story_id=512 if so 2013 can't come fast enough with Magic World and this on the way.

I'm very glad that you like Elric! If you have a chance, I hope you check out how it runs in general. A bit fuller than CoC, but still lightning fast during play. I really think BRP starts to sing when you allow skills over 100%. But that's another thread.

I enjoy the Elric line immensely. I spent all last night avoiding studying because I couldn't stop reading the Elric setting information between Elric!, The Bronze Grimoire, and Unknown East. I'm looking to pick up most of the supplements for it as I feel I'll use it in a future, darker campaign. It really is great and keeps the fluff down so it seems like it runs very smooth. One of the major downsides to RQ6 in my opinion is all the optional rules start to add a ton of unnecessary complexity. While I tend to pick apart pieces of RQ6's systems I want to use and tweak them to avoid their optional rules, I can easily see me picking up large chunks of Elric (both mechanics and setting) and plopping them into my games.

Sadly, I don't think it will ever exist and I haven't heard of Magic World bringing any of that stuff into the fold yet. (Although I would be very happy to be wrong. Please Ben? ) I can give you the run down on the Corum pact system though. It's fairly simple but very game changing.

I would love that. I'd be pretty much buying Corum for the system adjustments. Is the setting any good? I might be willing to break my rule and pick up a hard copy of it if it's going to give me more than summoning changes.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Robsbot

[Chaot]

I could absolutely use more cult ideas especially with the array of magical systems I plan to have scattered about my setting. I plan on making the different magical talents hail from different parts of the world so they'll each need a structural back end to fit into their societies.

I like the cut of your jib. Granted, the downside is mentally juggling the associated rules but I've found it manageable in the past. I actually had a Ravenloft game planned for this past October that fell through because of life getting in the way where I plan on making available several different magic systems. I agree that it gives flavor to different magic disciplines.

Edit: WAIT, is this it? Chaosium.com: News - Enlightened Magic if so 2013 can't come fast enough with Magic World and this on the way.

That's it. Looks lovely, yes? No idea on how far along it is.

I enjoy the Elric line immensely. I spent all last night avoiding studying because I couldn't stop reading the Elric setting information between Elric!, The Bronze Grimoire, and Unknown East. I'm looking to pick up most of the supplements for it as I feel I'll use it in a future, darker campaign.

Those are some heavy hitters there. For the Unknown East I would recommend taking a look at Seljos' house rules.

Sailing on the Seas of Fate offer some really great ship rules. The original ship rules were found in White Wolf( I think) which also contains write ups for a Lawful, Chaotic and a Fire Elemental temple and includes the adventure Yellow Hell. White Wolf (again, I need to check, but I think) is really gonzo but has a bunch of ideas to mine. Pan Tang, Isle of the Purple Towns, Melnibone, Rogue Mistress, all of these are great reads. None of them pertinent to your immediate magic systems question though.

However, if you haven't done so yet, you should go over to stormbringerrpg and read Gods of Law for the Virtues system.

I would love that. I'd be pretty much buying Corum for the system adjustments. Is the setting any good? I might be willing to break my rule and pick up a hard copy of it if it's going to give me more than summoning changes.

The settings good, but the real draw is Pacts, Chaotic Melds, and the Lawful Constructs. Elemental Tattoos, Fetishes and such are icing.

Different people have different issues with Elric! Summoning. My only issues with it are that 1) it's biased towards binding demons into weapons and armor and 2) it's out there without a correspondingly powerful magic system to contrast against. Virtues and Lawful Constructs go a long way for issue number two. I think Corum's Pact system completely solves issue number one. The best thing is, it's just tweaks on the Elric! system. I'll give you a run down tonight or tomorrow.

[BMonroe]

Sadly, I don't think it will ever exist and I haven't heard of Magic World bringing any of that stuff into the fold yet. (Although I would be very happy to be wrong. Please Ben? ) I can give you the run down on the Corum pact system though. It's fairly simple but very game changing.

I haven't looked at Corum's Pact Magic in... well, since the game first came out. I'll keep it on "the list", though; maybe there's somewhere we can fit it down the line. I'd have to talk to the authors, of course.

[Chaot]

I haven't looked at Corum's Pact Magic in... well, since the game first came out. I'll keep it on "the list", though; maybe there's somewhere we can fit it down the line. I'd have to talk to the authors, of course.

It's good stuff. Of course, it's got a very solid foundation on which to build.

Note that I’m conflating Chaos Critters with Demons a bit here. Chaos Creatures are like lesser Demons, but the PC has a different relationship with them under the Corum rules than they do with lesser Demons under the Elric! rules. Chaos Critters also do not have as wide a range of special tricks that are found in Demon Abilities. With Chaos Creatures though, the GM is ultimately the one who determines the abilities, so some special powers can be introduced if desired.

Now, the problem with Elric! summoning is that it highly encourages a summoner to bind their demon into a weapon or armor. Let’s use Froderick the Megalomaniacal for example.

Froderick is a sorcerer with a Pow of 18. He’s got a problem with authority figures, is more than a bit paranoid and has decided that in order to fulfill his life’s goals he needs to leave behind him a body count. He decides to summon a demon lackey. Let’s break it down so that we have examples of our standard demon, a demon weapon and then standard demon and demon weapon when Brazier of Power is introduced into the mix.

SUMMONING A STANDARD DEMON

Froderick summons a demon. It’s going to take him 1d8 hours. He’s going to bind it, because he wants this demon’s services as needed.

He casts the spell, costing 1 mp for Summon and 8 mp to set the demon’s attributes. This gives him 1d8 for all of the Stats except for Pow which is 3d8. Froderick is down to 9 mp. He’s going to want to keep 1 mp in reserve so that he stays conscious through this whole summoning, leaving him 8 mp to play with.

Froderick wants a body guard. Something that will do some damage in combat. If he a demon ability like Claw or Gore or Gout Fire the demon will be impressive but will do a fixed amount of damage; 1d8+db, 1d8+2+db and 1d8 fire damage per round/1d3 scorching outside of radius.

But Froderick knows his demon is tiny, not very strong and fragile at 1d8 Siz, Str, and Con. He decides to divide his 8 mp between offense and defense. Because this is a minor demon, he can’t increase his Stats higher than 3d8. He can invest in his Stats and hopes he rolls high or he can invest in Abilities, which is more of a sure thing. Froderick goes with Abilities.

He gives his little fellow 4 points of Carapace, giving the guy a 1d8 in armor. He then debates on whether to invest in Bite or Vomit Acid, because they scale with magic points invested, but he only has 4 mp left to invest, which will give his demon an attack of 40% and 1d8 damage. His demon is not going to have a positive damage bonus, so Froderick decides his best bet is Gout Flame.

Now Froderick has his little buddy and he can dismiss him and call him whenever he wants at no mp cost. It just takes one combat round. Or the little pyro can ride around of Froderick’s shoulder or something. He is effective in combat but not very versatile. Froderick now has a Pow of 17.

SUMMONING AN ITEM BOUND DEMON

Froderick wants to be a combat monster, either untouchable or doing enormous amounts of damage, or both. He decides to bind demons into weapons and/or armor, let’s say a dagger and leather armor.

1 mp for the spell, 8 to set the Stats, 1d8 for everything except Pow at 3d8. 1 mp to stay conscious, leaving 8 mp to invest. He says to himself, “To live and fight another day is optimal,” and drops those 8 points in Demon Armor, giving him Soft Leather armor that will protect him for 1d6-1+1d10+1d6 points of damage and leaving him at 17 Pow. He then summons and binds again, giving him 7 mp to play with. He binds a Demon Dagger that does 1d4+1+db+1d10+1d4, leaving him with a Pow of 16. Froderick can still cast spells and is a terror in combat.

THE BRAZIER OF POWER

STANDARD DEMON EDITION

Now with Brazier of Power things get scarier. Froderick has a Pow of 17 and a magic point reserve of 35. That means that Froderick has 26 points to play with instead of 8 when defining his demon. He can bump up stats now, but let’s say he sticks with improving abilities.

If he puts 1 more point into Pow he’s got a greater demon and 25 mp to play with. The average of 3d8 is 14 and 4d8 is 18, which he eventually has to beat in a Pow : Pow contest. Froderick has to keep this in mind when he’s rolling up a demon. If he goes with a greater demon he can select Vomit Acid and Carapace. If he’s happy with his demon’s 1d8 armor he can up Vomit Acid to a ridiculous level. 4d10+1d2 points of damage at 210% skill.

Even if Froderick keeps the demon at lesser status, he can create on with a 2d10 point Carapace and a Vomit Acid 100%, 2d10 damage and still have points left over to spend.

Finally, a respectable demon but still not versatile at all.

ITEM BOUND DEMON

But say I’m Froderick, Pow 17, mp 35, and I’m going with weapon and armor.

At lesser demon level I’m getting Soft Leather 1d6-1+2d10 and 15 magic points to invest in Abilities. Then I get my dagger 1d4+1+db+2d10 and 14 magic points to invest in Abilities. At that point, my Pow is 15 and I can’t cast spells anymore until I can raise my Pow up to 16 again. But really, Froderick is doing just fine decked out in gear without his spells.

If Froderick gambles on greater demons and actually succeeds, things get really crazy.

Now in Elric! a demon can be summoned and negotiated with to perform one task. It doesn’t cost Pow as it’s not a binding, but it does take 1d8 hours and it’s a one time deal.

CORUM

Corum is incredibly friendly to the concept of a ‘demon’ as an agent. These take the form of Chaos Creatures. There’s no defined spell to summon. A sorcerer just spends 6 mp and performs a ‘summoning ritual.’ Heck, a sorcerer who rolls two fumbles in a row might accidentally summon a critter. (If a chaos creature is accidently summoned it drains 3d8 mp from the unfortunate sorcerer and the GM gets to define it).

When summoned, the chaos critter comes along with 3d8 in all stats, one skill at 100% and two skills at 50%. Magic points may be invested to define these further as well as to impart new skills.

Here’s where the important difference come in though. When summoned, a chaos creature enters into a pact with the summoner and expects it’s pact price. The first time summoned, there’s a bit of a time allowance for coming up with the price, as the summoner doesn’t necessarily know before hand what the price is going to be. From that point on though, all the summoner needs to do is spend a round, expend a single magic point and have her pact price ready and the critter will show up. There’s no Pow expenditure for bindings. However, if the sorcerer wants to bind the chaos creature into an item the cost is 3 Pow.

In a binding like this, there are no abilities like Demon Armor or Demon Weapon. Rather, someone in possession of the item is able to call forth the Chaos Creature. It still requires a pact price to do it caller’s bidding.

Froderick under the Corum rules can amass a retinue of ‘helpers’ who, while are generally focused in abilities, are accessible, varied individually, and have a significant game costs when called upon, but are not heavy investitures of Froderick’s Pow.

There are other considerations. In Corum, a fellow with a Chaos Allegiance higher than Balance or Law starts to run into the possibility of trouble. Brazier of Power also works differently, but points in Chaos bump up the PC’s magic point total too. Pacted Chaos Creatures take up two points of INT in Corum where as Bound demons in Elric! take up one. The summoning process in Corum encourages a lot of the decisions on how the final critter turns out on the GM whereas Elric!’s emphasis is ‘you get what you ask for.’

[BMonroe]

You know, ironically, I never really use the Demon rules. I've used them most frequently as a way for me as a GM to allow the PCs to make enchanted items, but never really as 'demons shoved into a sword' or whatever. A few times I've run campaigns where I've just told the players to create enchanted items for themselves equal to a number of points and then let them start off with cool ancestral doodads.

Indeed, I thought about rewriting the Demon rules in Advanced Sorcery to reflect that; repurposing them as an 'enchantment creation system'. But, when I spoke with a few people about it, in the end I decided to leave them as-is for the people that like them as Demon rules.