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Question about Deep Magic


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#1 tooley1chris

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:21 PM

I might be missing something but I can't see anywhere in Advanced Sorcery the effects of wearing armor has on a mage using Deep Magic. I see the LUC roll for using non-specialized spheres /glyphs but...there is no required roll if using specialized spheres/glyphs.
I see a very nasty full plate anti -paladin type character in my players next wish list.

#2 Harshax

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 07:04 PM

From what I've gathered, Deep Magic is the same magic system found in Elric! The Unknown East, right?

I don't recall there ever being a spellcasting penalty for wearing armor.

Edited by Harshax, 22 April 2014 - 07:23 PM.

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#3 lawrence.whitaker

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 08:00 PM

From what I've gathered, Deep Magic is the same magic system found in Elric! The Unknown East, right?

I don't recall there ever being a spellcasting penalty for wearing armor.


Harshax is right: there was never any armour restriction on magic in The Unknown East supplement. I don't have 'Advanced Sorcery' so I don't know if the authors have written some form of restriction into the other forms of magic, but UE magic didn't have any armour-based limitations.
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#4 tooley1chris

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:45 PM

This seems rather unbalanced. Nothing to stop a mage from wearing full plate, helm,and shield? Hell, he can even spend all his skill points in long sword since there's no actual skill involved with Deep Magic to beef up. INT can be raised with no cap so starting at 16 (for 1 sphere&1 glyph) shouldn't be a problem if you gimp something else a bit...
Who'd be a "regular " fighter?
I'm not familiar with Elric! Is there some other restrictions I'm missing?

#5 tooley1chris

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:23 PM

Of course, I suppose everything I mentioned previously is somewhat balanced out by spells taking 3,4,5+ rounds to prepare using Deep Magic.
Ooh, and since there is no skill roll, there's no aretes for it...

Edited by tooley1chris, 22 April 2014 - 10:26 PM.


#6 tooley1chris

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:45 PM

Another question...the Area of Effect section of Advanced Sorcery doesn't mention effecting multiple targets in an area. Does this make, say, a fireball type spell, or Cone of Frost, as examples, impossible?
Are there rules in Elric! governing this?

#7 Harshax

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:54 PM

Deep Magic has a lot of balancing factors to keep it in check. First, even the most familiar spell costs a minimum of 2 MP. Sorcerer's Bulwark, 2MP compared to 1 from straight Sorcery.

Secondly, spells that are far afield from your specialty cost many more MP, but the parameters for targets and duration are unchanged. Some spells which cost 1-3 MP in standard sorcery can cost 8-10 MP when cast with Deep Sorcery.

Thirdly, spells outside your specialty require Luck rolls to succeed. Since MW has a POW economy, you're going to spend permanent pow for a variety of benefits, most important of them, is to gamble maintaining a certain level of POW to keep earning POW gain rolls, so you can spend it on binding demons or other enchantments.

Lastly, BRP has no arbitrary rules for 'balancing' magic v melee. I rarely use this term, but that sort of arbitration belongs in 'That other Game.' It has never been an issue in my games. Take two skilled and active players who focus their skill attempts in different ways and you will clearly see a difference between magicians and 'fighters'.
And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

#8 Harshax

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:57 PM

This is not cometely accurate. All sorcery affect 1 target. The difference with Deep Magic, is that once prepared, you are allowed to cast the same spell in 1 round after the first casting.
And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

#9 tooley1chris

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 12:02 PM

I just want to make sure on this but none of the Deep Magic example spells are damage dealing. If I use the fire sphere and creation glyph to make a fire attack would the "Rule of Four" dictate damage done? Ie: POW of 16 would cause 4d6 damage? (POW divided by 4?)

#10 Harshax

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:33 PM

I just want to make sure on this but none of the Deep Magic example spells are damage dealing. If I use the fire sphere and creation glyph to make a fire attack would the "Rule of Four" dictate damage done? Ie: POW of 16 would cause 4d6 damage? (POW divided by 4?)


I think that's too much damage. Flame of the Sun does 1d6+2 fire damage and costs 4 MP.

I think I once used a sliding scale for damage based on the 4 to 1 rule:
d4 d6 d8 d10 d12 2d6 ...

A magician with POW 16, would do d10 damage with a damaging spell, while someone with POW 24 would do 2d8.
And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

#11 tooley1chris

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:06 PM

Does flame of the sun allow a MP: MP resistance roll? I don't have my book in front of me, but all Deep Magic spells against a living target allow MP:MP resistance.
I may be over thinking this anyway. Or under thinking it, since having ,say, the Flesh Sphere and Transmutation Glyph would allow Flesh to Stone. LOL.
Kinda short sighted of me to think about damage spells.
I really appreciate your insight Harshax. I'm surprised none of the authors/editors had anything to add...

#12 Harshax

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:42 PM

Does flame of the sun allow a MP: MP resistance roll? I don't have my book in front of me, but all Deep Magic spells against a living target allow MP:MP resistance.
I may be over thinking this anyway. Or under thinking it, since having ,say, the Flesh Sphere and Transmutation Glyph would allow Flesh to Stone. LOL.
Kinda short sighted of me to think about damage spells.
I really appreciate your insight Harshax. I'm surprised none of the authors/editors had anything to add...


Flame ofSun has no RR.

Also, I looked at RQ6 damage progression for Wrack and it skips d12 and goes straight to 2d6:
d4, d6, d8, d10, 2d6, 2d8, etc...

Fireballs and Lightning Bolts may look flashy, but you definitely have the right idea that turning your foes to stone is a far more efficient and impressive use magic. :)
And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

#13 lawrence.whitaker

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 08:18 PM

I'm surprised none of the authors/editors had anything to add...


I would comment more, but because I don't have 'Advanced Sorcery', I don't know what changes may have been introduced since the system was first presented in 'The Unknown East'. So it's really pointless me contributing unless I can do so from an informed position.
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#14 tooley1chris

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:51 PM

I would comment more, but because I don't have 'Advanced Sorcery', I don't know what changes may have been introduced since the system was first presented in 'The Unknown East'. So it's really pointless me contributing unless I can do so from an informed position.


I appreciate that!

#15 Mankcam

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:57 AM

I will have to dust off Unknown East, but from memory the Deep Magic rules look very similar. I would be surprised if there has been any significant alterations to the mechanics that Loz came up with.

I remember at the time of original publication I was blown away with the versatility of that magic system, I finally had a version of White Wolf MAGE magic for BRP!

I am happy to see it in a more generic rule set, although I also wondered if it could be a bit unbalanced due to its scope. Sorcerers in full plate with longswords were very much in keeping with the stories of The Young Kingdoms, but for generic rules it does strike me as unbalanced.

However as I had never had the chance to use it I am unaware if it actually is unbalanced. Harshax describes numerous in-game limitations that I haven't thought of, and I think this would provide a level of balance. I would much prefer game balance occurring within the narrative context as opposed to an arbitrary gamist limitation, which has been an innate strength of RQ and BRP, and the reason I was initially attracted to BRP.

The inclusion of Deep Magic has great potential for MagicWorld or any fantasy setting. I'm glad it's been brought back!

Edited by Mankcam, 26 April 2014 - 05:06 AM.


#16 Chaot

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:51 PM

It seems an opportune time to refer to this document. Charlie Seljos wrote some great house rules that expands on the versatility of what was to become Deep Magic.

Here are those rules.
70/420

#17 tooley1chris

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:24 PM

It seems an opportune time to refer to this document. Charlie Seljos wrote some great house rules that expands on the versatility of what was to become Deep Magic.

Here are those rules.


This is wonderful. Thanks Chaot! Published in 1996? I have some research to do.




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