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Critical and Special vs just Critical?


nerdvana

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Does anyone see any problem retooling the degrees of success in Legend (Critical, Success, Failure, Fumble) to match those from BRP (Critical, Special, Success, Failure, Fumble). I am considering doing this for a game (where I was going to use BRP but am switching to Legend based for how attributes affect skills) and cannot see any problem as long as I make it a universal change. I'd like to see if I'm missing any inherit complications from this choice from others' POVs.

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Main thing is combat manoeuvres. You will generate a *lot* more of them. 

Yeah, there's a whole table for comparing degrees of success in Combat in the BGB which I'd be porting over also. So it sounds like you are saying it won't fundamentally break the system to do this.

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There is another level here, which I'm not math-savvy enough to properly explain.

BRP has 5 levels of success, while Legend/RQ only has 4.

But BRP mostly just uses the 3 first levels - Critical, Special and Success. Failure and Fumble rarely do anything other than "Nope. Better luck next time, bub."

BRP's rolls stand more on their own as opposed to Legend's opposed/differential roll-mechanic.

Legend actively uses the failure ranges as well, effectively ending up having as many as, or one more, success-level than BRP, depending on how harshly you rule fumbles.

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There is another level here, which I'm not math-savvy enough to properly explain.

BRP has 5 levels of success, while Legend/RQ only has 4.

But BRP mostly just uses the 3 first levels - Critical, Special and Success. Failure and Fumble rarely do anything other than "Nope. Better luck next time, bub."

BRP's rolls stand more on their own as opposed to Legend's opposed/differential roll-mechanic.

Legend actively uses the failure ranges as well, effectively ending up having as many as, or one more, success-level than BRP, depending on how harshly you rule fumbles.

Could you explain that one. In Legend you fumble on a 99 or a 00 unless your modified skill is over 100% in which case it is only on a 00. In the BGB (p172-174) your chance for a fumble can be as large as 96 though 00 (at skill levels 20% or lower) though 00 (which starts at 81%). It seems like Legend white washes Fumbles much more than the BGB does.

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I would think it is better to have the Legend system.

 

The special has always been a nice to have, doing a bit more than a normal but less than a critical, but what does it really achieve? It allows thrusting weapons to impale. 

 

If you lose the Special then you get a few benefits:

  • Maths gets easier to work out criticals
  • The roll-high mechanic makes sense
  • It ties in with HeroQuest, allowing you to use the HeroQuest results table

So, rather than introducing specials to Legend, remove them from BRP.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Could you explain that one. In Legend you fumble on a 99 or a 00 unless your modified skill is over 100% in which case it is only on a 00. In the BGB (p172-174) your chance for a fumble can be as large as 96 though 00 (at skill levels 20% or lower) though 00 (which starts at 81%). It seems like Legend white washes Fumbles much more than the BGB does.

No, I can't explain it. I am, as I said, not math-savvy enough.

But my point is: 

In BRP a skill of 81 will yield a critical on a 5 and a special on a 17. An 18-81 will produce a normal success. It will fail to produce anything on a 82+ and fumble on 00. 

In Legend a skill of 81 will yield a critical on a 9, a normal success on 10-81, a failure on 82-98, and a fumble on 99+.

 

But, and this is my point, most rolls in Legend will be directly opposed by another roll, where as they won't be in BRP.

If A rolls a normal success, A has succeded. B can try to counter, and if successful, negates A's success. 

If B fails, BRP doesn't care - it is as if B hadn't rolled anything at all. Legend let's A generate a CM.

Alternatively, if B counters with a critical, BRP doesn't care - B negates A's success, who goes next (yes I realize there are some more details, but no details that matter much right there and then). Legend let's B generate a CM. So with this, Legend introduces an extra level that makes up for, and then some, the missing Special-range.

Those examples are obviously combat-related.

 

In straight-up pass/fail skill challenges it won't be as big a deal, but still.

This is the one thing that caused me the most trouble when I ran RQ6 - reprogramming my brain from thinking BRP. I got it eventually, though, and I don't think I'll be going back.  

As far as the fumbling goes, as I said, it depends on how harsh you are with them. Legend's fumbles are bad, bad things.

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You can mish-mash various elements between all BRP-related systems (ie: Magic, Ship Rules, etc), but fiddling with their inherent combat systems is probably a no-no. I have found that if you muck around with core mechanics too much then unanticipated problems arise.

 

I would go either with BRP BGB or LEGEND/RQ6.

My gut feeling with this situation is to listen to the wise words of Egon Spengler:

 

"Don't cross the streams..."  

 

:)

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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"But, and this is my point, most rolls in Legend will be directly opposed by another roll, where as they won't be in BRP."

 

Um, that's not actually true of the current BRP "Big Gold Book" rules, y'know - the default combat rule is that the defense roll (Dodge or Parry) is opposing the offensive roll, with results cross indexed on the results table on page 193. Outside of combat, opposed skills are discussed on pages 173 and various alternative options detailed on page 174.

 

cheers,

 

Nick

 

 

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To clarify, though most d100 is pretty modular I wouldn't recommend using combat manoeuvers and BRP 5-fold degrees of success together. It's fiddly to do so and leads to odd results.

 

For example, is a special versus a normal 1 degree of success and, if so, should it be allowed to choose from critical CMs or normal CMs? (Or do you need to go through all the CMs and decide if there should be a 3rd type of CM.)

You will get 2 CMs much more frequently (special vs failure) than you do in Legend and in general you will get a lot more CMs. 

On the other hand you will get much fewer critical CMs.

 

None of these issues are unfixable and they won't "break" the system but they will make it play in ways which feel rather odd. 

 

By the way I would also strongly recommend you get the free (technically "pay what you want") RQ6 Essentials rather than Legend. RQ6 is a much tighter, smoother and all around better designed version of the same system. There are lots of niggling issues in Legend which have been addressed in RQ6.

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To clarify, though most d100 is pretty modular I wouldn't recommend using combat manoeuvers and BRP 5-fold degrees of success together. It's fiddly to do so and leads to odd results.

I had no intention of retaining Legend's manoeuvers. I'm basically looking at taking the base skill calculations and other elements from Legend that I like and the parts of the BGB that I like and working them towards a merged system that I'll use.

 

I will look at that. I know that I liked what I saw in RQ6 but there were too many magical aspects I kept hitting a wall on so the essentials option might be better for me!

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I will look at that. I know that I liked what I saw in RQ6 but there were too many magical aspects I kept hitting a wall on so the essentials option might be better for me!

Looked it over. It retains the fundamental problems I have of (a) no specials and (B) Fumble range does not adjust as much with skill level so I'll stick with my 'Frankenstein' build I'm working on. But thanks for pointing me to that.

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Could you explain that one. In Legend you fumble on a 99 or a 00 unless your modified skill is over 100% in which case it is only on a 00. In the BGB (p172-174) your chance for a fumble can be as large as 96 though 00 (at skill levels 20% or lower) though 00 (which starts at 81%). It seems like Legend white washes Fumbles much more than the BGB does.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. Elric! uses the 99 or 00 fumble rule like Legend, but the BGB allows for much more fumbling. I came up with a dice rolling system which takes care of the maths for specials and fumbles Given the lethality of combat I prefer the 99/00 rule but that's a personal preference.

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I have this same issue.

 

I like the idea of using opposed rolls for Combat Maneuvers as per Legend, but I (and my players, methinks) also like having Specials as it is better than a regular success, which we generally consider a minimal success for whatever action is being done.

 

I'm in the middle of making a full-on AD&D/BRP conversion (not for profit: all credit to Rod Leary as his Classic Fantasy Monograph is what started this whole thing for me), where I could open up an AD&D setting or module and be able to just run things with minimal work, but I find that I'm actually tearing up a lot of the fundamentals of BRP in order to better fit. The Four vs Five Levels of Success/Failure is one of the core mechanics that I've been really analyzing and trying to figure out whether it works or not, so this topic drew me in. I have generally based my work around Legend, but I've deviated quite a bit in a lot of areas.

 

For example, all of my derived statistics (Agility, Effort, Stamina, Idea, etc) are based on a x4 multiplier (making 25 the golden number instead of 20). I also pulled Luck away from POW (which has enough things going for it) and attached it to an eighth Characteristic: FATE. Luck is FATE x5, and unlike other Characteristics, all characters begin with 10 FATE (modifiable at character creation by sacrificing/adding to or from other Characteristics), and FATE is spent throughout the game like Fate Points (albeit at a seriously reduced cost, basically 1 point per use), but only recovers through heroic actions/ideas/whatever, or fully restored at the end of an adventure.

 

I really have to pay attention when I reply on these boards. I write too much...

 

 

Anyway, short answer: I'm glad someone brought up the Four vs Five levels of Success/Failure thing. 

 

Thanks for pointing that out. Elric! uses the 99 or 00 fumble rule like Legend, but the BGB allows for much more fumbling. I came up with a dice rolling system which takes care of the maths for specials and fumbles  the lethality of combat I prefer the 99/00 rule but that's a personal preference.

 

 

Questbird, I like what you did there as it seems pretty intuitive (See a 0, 1, or 2? Passed the skill? Special. Failed the skill? Fumble). I might try it out sometime. When I really got into BRP years back, I houseruled all of my BRP/d100/CoC/whatever games with a scaling Fumble range (to dissuade players from "rollplaying" their characters and instead rely on teachers for really low skills, which I highly encourage):

 

Skill of 01% through 10% = Fumble on 91-100

Skill of 11% through 20% = Fumble on 92-100

Skill of 21% through 30% = Fumble on 93-100

Skill of 31% through 40% = Fumble on 94-100

Skill of 41% through 50% = Fumble on 95-100

Skill of 51% through 60% = Fumble on 96-100

Skill of 61% through 70% = Fumble on 97-100

Skill of 71% through 80% = Fumble on 98-100

Skill of 81% through 90% = Fumble on 99-100

Skill of 91% through 99% = Fumble on 100 only

Skill of 100%+ = Failure on 100 only, no fumbles

 

Fumble range DOES scale with circumstance changes (so halving a skill chance would also increase the Fumble range).

 

EDIT: For those of you wondering what POW x4 does now, it's Will(power). Basically a tool for Fear, Horror, and Madness from Ravenloft, or a more heroic Sanity system.

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