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Musings on Magic


Chaot

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So you're seeing the stuff in the field right now.  That's great.  I'm going to lean on you a bit for your feedback and experience on how you see it playing out at the table.

 

Here are some of my thoughts.

 

Deep Magic gives a mage the tools to create any effect they want.  They are limited by only a few things.  It may actually be easier to look at limitations in order to get a grasp on what Deep Magic can do.

 
One Effect
When you are casting with only two spheres/glyphs, you can achieve one effect.  The spell can only do one thing.  For every 8 INT points you have you can learn a sphere/glyph.  An INT 24 gives you three sphere/glyphs.  Three sphere/glyphs would let you cast a spell with two effects.
 
So if you want to cast a spell that gives you enhanced strength and speed you’ll need three sphere/glyphs.  Otherwise you need to break it up into two spells.  I assume that adding another sphere/glyph at INT 32 would allow for a spell with three effects.
 
Intelligence
Incidentally, the only manner that I noted in the rulesbook to increase INT is through the resistance table.  I don’t recall spells or spot rules that use INT : INT.  However, the one example I was able to find about INT Resistance was a game of chess!  INT isn’t even something you can train.  This means that these Mage enclaves are full of gamers!  They play high stakes intellectual games, slowly building their Intelligence.
 
There’s a natural cap on this.  There’s going to be a mage there that has the highest intelligence.  He’s not going to be able to get an increase because he doesn’t have a challenge.  He’s going to have to find another challenger.  Undines and sylphs actually have decent intelligences, as do nymphs.  He could seek for a challenge there.
 
Eventually he’s going to need a new challenger.  The only way I see a mage getting his INT up in the 32 or above range is by challenging demons!  I foresee mages binding small demon buddies who’s main purpose is to provide quips, mental puzzles and serve as opponents in complex strategy games.
 
Speaking of stats, I’ve previously said that a sorcerer probably wants to keep their POW at 16 or 17.  A powerful mage will want to keep their POW up at a higher level.  Every time a mage steps out of their familiar glyphs and spheres they need to roll to make sure the spell goes off.
 
Spell Failure
Which then brings us to the kinds of spells that a mage might cast.  When a mage casts a spell using their known glyph and sphere it only costs 2 mp and there’s no penalty to cast.  For every step away from the known glyph/sphere it costs another mp and potentially gets harder to cast.
 
I say potentially because a high POW will mitigate this a little.  If a mage has a POW of 24 and casts a 4 point spell outside of their known glyph/sphere combo the still have a 100% chance to cast.  High POW is good for a mage.
 
A high amount of magic points are also desirable for a mage.  It does not cost a mage permanent POW to create a familiar, so this is something the mage should do.  Bonus mp and a get out of death free card.  It does cost a mage a point of POW to make a reservoir of magical energy.  Using Spirit and Creation and focusing it with a point of POW the mage can create a magical battery or two that they can pull from.
 
Other Stuff
So now we get down to the nitty gritty.  What kind of spells do mages cast?  Well, we have things that fall under earth, air, fire and water.  Then we have animals and plants, and flesh and spirit.  Of those, flesh and spirit probably need expanding on.  Flesh is the physical aspects of sentient beings.  Spirit is the emotional and intellectual aspect (including the five senses) of sentient beings.  If I were making a mage my sphere would probably either be Flesh or Spirit.  These spells are more likely to have a direct effect on the target.  They are also more likely to involve spell Resistance.
 
Spell Resistance
Speaking of spell resistance, let’s take a look at it.  The notes in Advanced Sorcery mention that casting a spell on an opponent will involve an mp : mp roll.  This is generally true.  One thing to keep in mind when you are making effects though is how Resistance is used in normal sorcery.  As a general rule, mp vs mp gets rolled when the spell makes opponents weak or changes them temporarily (normally involving changes to skills and stats).  POW vs POW occurs when the effect is permanent change or temporary domination.  Ultimately it is up to the Chronicler to determine which is most appropriate at what time, but that’s a handy guideline.
 
Spell Casting Strategies
Direct damage isn’t necessarily a winning strategy.  Even with Seljos’ house rules, damage is pretty low.  It might be good against one or two opponents but if you’re outnumbered it’s not the best use of your resources.  Area effect spells are key to large groups.  Don’t blind individuals, create a pool of darkness using Diminution/Fire and blind everyone who walks into the area.
 
There’s another important lesson that I picked up from my early days of playing D&D.  As a player, the moment you make the DM go for the dice, you’ve lost.  Your goal as a player should be to keep your Chronicler entertained and in ‘storytelling’ mode.  One way to do this is to already have an idea of what sphere/glyph combo you’re using, describe your intended outcome being specific and to keep the outcome reasonable.  Save the big effects for climaxes or plot points.  Make sure you spread the magic love around too.  If everyone is benefiting from your spells you look like a team player and people will want your magic to succeed.
 
On the Chronicler’s side, remember that being a Mage is a big thing.  Let them get away with well thought out spells.  Don’t worry too much about setting precedent.  This is a free form system.  If you let a spell work once and latter decide that it’s too powerful, talk to the player and let them know it needs retooled and toned down.
 
Ok, I might have some more tonight.  We need to go into glyphs and what kind of spellcasting we’re likely to see during a game.
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  • 2 weeks later...

All good stuff. Don't lose interest now!

Some of the things my player who runs a mage has discovered is, yes, both the flesh and spirit spheres rock for effecting individuals. And IMO most of the spirit spells will call for the important POW:POW resistance.

As far as glyphs go I love the Transmutation glyph. Again, potent against individuals. A nice flesh to Stone spell might not be permanent but smashing an immobilized statue to pieces can still ruin a critters day. In tune with your area effect comment above using Earth Sphere with Transmutation glyph can turn a fairly large area under advancing troops to deep mud. And if the spells duration expires before they get out then their stuck in solid earth with their heads sticking out. Grab your Driver and practice your long game. :)

Yes turning the air in an area to fire can have some nice effects to a group of bad guys (or a building) as well. Transmutation is definitely my favorite glyph. But it's also all I've really played with so far.

Anyone have outstanding uses for others?

Author QUASAR space opera system: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/459723/QUASAR?affiliate_id=810507

My Magic World projects page: Tooleys Underwhelming Projects

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All good stuff. Don't lose interest now!

 

 

Sorry!  Haven't lost interest.  Just been very very busy.

 

Transmutation is an awesome glyph.  It's very handy in most situations.  We were (re: I was) a little scared of it when we first started playing with the magic system.  In it's description it mentioned how it's the most difficult glyph to learn so I house ruled that it couldn't be a starting glyph but could be picked up later if a sorcerer adds another glyph or sphere.  Consequently, I don't have as much practical experience with the glyph as you do.

 

I think I've changed my thinking on it though, and wouldn't use that house rule if I ran it today.

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Might not be a bad idea for such a house rule...my other players have been calling the players mage "God". :)

There's something I wanted to ask you (and anyone reading) about. My Mage player recently figured out that if he uses

flesh transmutation to heal a comrad per Advanced Sorcery, could he not do so on a PC killed in action and then cast Spirit Sphere and Summoming Glyph to call the deceased spirit back. A round about resurrection spell that's missing from the sorcerer spell list.

I've house ruled that such is possible if done before the spirit leaves for the afterlife AND their are no other spirits around that may possess the freshly healed corpse AND the mage must sacrafice point of POW to make it permanent.

The mage is a fairly new character in the group so he really felt the POW sacrifice, but I'm worried about when the mage is more powerful. I don't want him to be a resurrection machine, and I don't want other players to be careless because of it either.

This group is coming from playing Ad&d for the last 15 years where raising the dead is more common and I don't want to shock them with NO POSSIBILITY of bringing back their dear PCs. Kind of a pickle.

My idea I've come up with is making the resurrected PC lose a permanent point of CON as a trade off. Think this is sufficient or am I (as always) overthinking it?

Something else that's rattling around my brain is to do away with Sorcery all together and JUST use Deep Magic. Then, the PCs occupation would dictate what Sphere they start out with. A priest would start with either Spirit or Flesh, a Druid type might start with Flora or Fauna, a Sorcerer could choose between the Elements.

I don't know. Having different magic systems in the campaign has been a lot of fun and I do LOVE variety...I'll probably leave it as is.

Author QUASAR space opera system: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/459723/QUASAR?affiliate_id=810507

My Magic World projects page: Tooleys Underwhelming Projects

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Before my present game evolved to MW, we played RQIII wherein divine magic has a Resurrection ceremony. We house ruled this spell and modified it significantly. Since then it has shown up in all our games modified slightly for each system--BRP, RQ6 and now MW--and have subjected our players to it. You might find it interesting, you may not. I include it here as a portion of the conversation seems to have turned that way. Phrases in italics are from the original RQIII rule. On a side note,  in my game resurrection is VERY rare as the gods are seriously jealous of their prerogatives. This spell was used as part of an adventure to restore the life of a dear sister to the players' mentor and for three or four sessions drove the story line. In the end they had to pay far more than characteristic points to re-balance the cosmic scales  ;)

 

MW HR Resurrect (10)

Range: Touch

Resist: MP:MP

          This Advanced Sorcery ritual allows for an adventurer to be restored to life. First the body must be healed to a level of at least 3 positive hit points. If the body is dead from disease, the disease must be eliminated or the ritual will be futile.

          This spell summons the deceased spirit to approach its former body. The caster of the spell can then start spirit combat with the deceased. If the initiate or priest succeeds in causing the deceased to lose Magic points, then he can force the spirit back into the body. If successful, before the “dead” can be fully re-animated and brought back to life, their STR, CON, DEX, INT, POW and APP must also be restored. This requires the sacrifice of said characteristics on the part of other PCs or NPCs in similar fashion to a magician creating a familiar. Each characteristic can be restored up to, but not exceeding, the dead’s original score. Less can be given, however at least half must be restored for the spell to work. Willing, or not so willing, participants are gathered who have “agreed” to sacrifice personal characteristic points for the sake of the dead. For some this is a major decision, especially those will have to work very hard to restore sacrificed points. As the adage goes, however ‘more hands make light the work’ and in this case, the more participants in the ritual, the less of an impact the sacrifice of characteristic points makes.

            After this has been done, the body will reanimate upon the command of those who gave it life. All that remains is the ceremonial denial of control by the directing Magic User. A Necromancer, who has had to steal or “tap” others for characteristic points, might choose to retain control over the resurrected, making them little better than intelligent zombies. A “good” Mage or PC, on the other hand, will finish the ritual by verbally and permanently “denying” control, over the soon-to-be-reanimated. All skill scores and modifiers on the part of sacrificing PC/NPCs will need to be re-figured.

          Each day after the first that the dead adventurer stays dead permanently reduces his/her current STR, CON, DEX and APP characteristics by 1D3 points. Thus, it behooves those involved to move as quickly as possible. Those who have lost all characteristics due to time, including ancient kings, long dead heroes or magicians, can still be resurrected, however, there must be a skeleton that remains fairly intact from which to work. Characters or NPCs that are missing a complete skeleton in some significant way (no head, lost legs—the victim had been drawn and quartered and this was all that could be recovered after the parts had rotted from the city walls; damn dogs!), or which have been fully cremated, crushed or pulverized have no chance at resurrection. If, however, all the parts could be reassembled…

            Regardless this spell is not to be undertaken lightly, and all should be warned that raising the dead, forcing them back from the afterlife, superseding the directives of deity, is a dreadful and awesome event. Much preparation and role-play should accompany it. Some cultures attach serious stigma to those who have been resurrected by this means, others have banned its practice as a violation of civil law or blasphemy punishable by death for both the animator and the reanimated. It does however, present some delightful opportunities for role-playing and scenarios.

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Present home-port: home-brew BRP/OQ SRD variant; past ports-of-call: SB '81, RQIII '84, BGB '08, RQIV(Mythras) '12,  MW '15, and OQ '17

BGB BRP: 0 edition: 20/420; .pdf edition: 06/11/08; 1st edition: 06/13/08

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I understand why you do the characteristic sacrifice. All campaigns are different and you should balance it how you see fit, however...

There are several spells that allow for creating undead, or even new creations, that call for using Magic Points to augment characteristics, and rules governing a spirit entering or possessing a body that contradict your house rule. Again, it's your campaign and you'll do as you see fit, and rightfully so. While I admire your methods, my players would see the necromancer doing the same thing with far less sacrifice and eventually raise the BS flag. Or worse still, try to have their spirit returned into an undead such as a Create Mummy spell.

I do really like your placing a stigmata on a raised companion though. Since resurrection IS so rare in Magic World (do to a lack of spell /ritual, even for priests) I can totally see any such PC being feared as a demon or what-not. Also imagine if word gets out that a mage has discovered the secrets to raising loved ones from the grave! Such a service would be sought after by many, and also possibly seen as evil and the practitioner hunted.

Author QUASAR space opera system: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/459723/QUASAR?affiliate_id=810507

My Magic World projects page: Tooleys Underwhelming Projects

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Cool, I understand.

 

In my game a Necromancer cannot fully raise the dead and restore life as it was before death. He can create all sorts of undead-reanimates and simulacrum, but once someone is dead in my game, unless the gods intervene, they are dead. Shrug. I should have thought about how the old RuneQuest III spell and the HR it is based on might contradict MW spirit lore. For continuity's sake, I'm gonna have to do more research before I field this ritual again. For sure I would rule that augmentation might be all well and good, but for purposes of the above ritual and truly restoring life as it was known, augmented points would not be considered a true sacrifice. It has got to be original CP or none at all. 

 

This is such an inspiring thread. It really gets the brain going and juices ticking, but I'm gonna sideline my particular train of thought in favor of the thread's original intent. I didn't mean to hijack it away from Chaot's original theme and talk about a HR. My bad.

 

Cheers :) !

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Present home-port: home-brew BRP/OQ SRD variant; past ports-of-call: SB '81, RQIII '84, BGB '08, RQIV(Mythras) '12,  MW '15, and OQ '17

BGB BRP: 0 edition: 20/420; .pdf edition: 06/11/08; 1st edition: 06/13/08

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That's great.  I'm stealing and modifying it for my own game.  Feels very dark and culty and forbidden.  Totally see the RQ influence too.  I admit, I'm envious of RQ.  It seemed to have a cool magic system, with the magic augmentations skills and all.  Then there was Sandy's Sorcery and the Vows.  Great stuff.  I never put the time in to actually learn it though.

 

I think for me I would require seven participants and only make them sacrifice one stat point each.  So someone would lose a STR, someone else a CON and so on.  Spell caster would lose the point of POW.  What I love about spells like this is that they almost demand their own sub plot.  How did death change the poor soul brought back?  My go to plots are 'visions of an impending doom' or 'something followed you from beyond.'

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This is such an inspiring thread. It really gets the brain going and juices ticking, but I'm gonna sideline my particular train of thought in favor of the thread's original intent. I didn't mean to hijack it away from Chaot's original theme and talk about a HR. My bad.

 

Please feel free to post anything about magic that crosses your mind.  Just because I'm trying to stay by the book doesn't mean you need to.  :D

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  • 1 month later...

To be quite honest, I found the magic system too bland and threw it out, still using POW for spells, but instead using the Atomik add-ons from Precis Intermedia. Why not have hundreds of spells handy to run with? I can run any kind of spellcaster and have more spells, rituals and magic items than one would ever need. Better too many ideas at the table than too few.

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But, when at the last the arm of Skarl shall cease to beat his drum, silence shall startle Pegana like thunder in a cave, and MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI shall cease to rest......Lord Dunsany

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For me, the old Bard Game's system ruined magic for me, spoiled me by giving me so many options and variants on spells. Sure, some did the same thing in a different way, but these each had their own flavor. I like the Precis Intermedia magic books because these tomes really open up magic and give the GM/dM/Chronicler/etc and player a huge toolkit to run with. I don't want to knock what you have done at all, I have no intention to, I am just spoiled by the choices offered by a more open ended system. Although I really like the magnitude levels in BoL, which are the opposite of the Atomik add-ons in which the player makes spells on the fly.

****************************************

But, when at the last the arm of Skarl shall cease to beat his drum, silence shall startle Pegana like thunder in a cave, and MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI shall cease to rest......Lord Dunsany

Responsible for: https://ancientvaults.wordpress.com/

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I don't see it as knocking, I was just interested in hearing about your view point.  In my own games I generally pull in other magic systems as well.  For example, I'll be starting up a Magic World game soon and I plan on including Psychic Powers and Focus Skills amongst other things.  I've pulled systems from other games in the past as well.  It's one of the nice things about BRP.  It's so modular.

 

For the purpose of this thread though I plan on sticking with the published systems and trying to do everything as by the book as I can.  Sorry this thread has lain fallow.  I promise to get back to it.

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Yeah. The more I look at that the more I like it...even over my mentalist book. *sigh*

It really does need more powers though. Anyone know if super World covers psychics better?

Author QUASAR space opera system: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/459723/QUASAR?affiliate_id=810507

My Magic World projects page: Tooleys Underwhelming Projects

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Honestly, I just selected it because it's light and I've used it before so it needn't take up much of my brain space.  I hadn't even thought about incorporating netbooks.

 

I'm also adding in a skilled based magic system too but haven't settled between the stripped down one in the BGB or the expanded Classic Fantasy one.

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They're both good. In my campaign I merely have a single Knowledge (sorcery) skill to roll.

I thought about individual spell skills for specialization, but with the inclusion of Deep Magic in my campaign this didn't seem logical.

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Author QUASAR space opera system: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/459723/QUASAR?affiliate_id=810507

My Magic World projects page: Tooleys Underwhelming Projects

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  • 1 month later...

Hi all,

 

While I REALLY like the deep magic rules published in Advanced Sorcery, I have been tweaking (some people might call it an overhaul) them in preparation for a Magic World campaign that my group will start later this year.

 

The tweaks are to provide the following:

  1. Mutable parameters for elements like spell range, duration and area of effect.
  2. A “more” intuitive way to define spells.
  3. An expanded set of possibilities for spell casters in terms of the type spells they may cast.
  4. Potential for the spell caster to affect things on a grander scale.
  5. Rules aligning categories of spell effects, such as creation, transformation and control with power levels.

The homebrew rules developed address 1-4 above by changing the spheres and glyphs used by Deep Magic and by supplying costs for various spell ranges, area of effects, and durations. However addressing 5 above has been more difficult.  Currently the way I am doing that is to provide two tables the first of which supplies costs for creating, transforming or controlling various amounts of mass and the second which provides common spell modifiers (like curing insanity, curing magical disease, opening a portal,  etc...) along with associated costs. I can't reproduce the tables here (I tried - any suggestions?), but you can download the rules at if you like. The tables are number 5 and 6 on pages 14 and 15.

 

For example table 5 deals with the costs of creating, transforming or controlling various amounts of mass and goes from 0MP costs to 13MP costs in increments of 1 MP. As an example it specifies:

  • Controlling (lift, move, resist) a mass of 35 pounds would cost 1MP while transforming the same mass would cost 3MPs and creating the same mass would cost 4MPs.
  • Controlling a mass of 554 pounds would cost 4MPs while transforming the same mass would cost 6MPs and creating the same mass would cost 7MPs.
  • Controlling a mass of 8,652 pounds would cost 7MPs while transforming the same mass would cost 9MPs and creating the same mass would cost 10MPs.
  • Controlling a mass of 135,181 pounds would cost 10MPs while transforming the same mass would cost 12MPs and creating the same mass would cost 13MPs.
  • Etc, etc...

 

 

Similarly table 6 deals with the costs of common spell modifiers (like curing insanity, curing magical disease, opening a portal,  etc...) and goes from 0MP costs to 10MP costs in increments of 1 MP. It specifies that:

 

  • For the costs of 1MP you can affect (add or remove) 2D4 hit points, 2 armor points, 2 MOV points, 10 skills points, 1 characteristic point, 1 POW point or 1 MP point.
  • For the costs of 2MP you can affect (add or remove) 3D4 hit points, 3 armor points, 3 MOV points, 15 skills points, 2 characteristic point, 2 POW point, 2 MP point or cure or cause disease.
  • For the costs of 5MP you can affect (add or remove) 7D4 hit points, 7 armor points, 7 MOV points, 35 skills points, 5 characteristic point, 5 POW point, 5 MP point or cure or cause hearing loss or blindness, create a planar gate, access the future by 5 minutes or access the past by 5 days.
  • For the costs of 6MP you can affect (add or remove) 9D4 hit points, 9 armor points, 9 MOV points, 45 skills points, 6 characteristic point, 6 POW point, 6 MP point or cure or cause insanity, frost or fire protection, access the future by 6 minutes or access the past by 6 days.
  • Etc, etc...

 

I have two challenges. 1.) Identify and address common game situations where a spell (costs) modifier might be called for BEFORE I get into a game and have to hand wave it. 2.) Rationalize some of the modifiers I have already identified.  With that in mind I have a couple of questions for you folks:

  1. The conditions & special occurrences listed in column 3 of table 6 equate things like disease, hearing loss, planar gate and magical disease to MP costs.  These are the costs to create, provide or cure these things with a spell.  Do the values I have assigned for the various effects look reasonable?  Are there other conditions or special occurrences that I’m missing? What improvements would you make?
  2. One of my players proposed the spell “Raise Newly Dead”. He designed it comprising two parts. The first part used the spirit sphere and the control glyph to force the recently deceased spirit back into its body (subject to a POW:POW contest on the resistance table). The second part used the body sphere and the control glyph to heal the body of 5D4 hit points. It seems to me that forcing a spirit back into a body is much more difficult than curing insanity (or something like that) and should require some additional costs in MP points. What are your thoughts? How many points should something like this cost? I was leaning towards an extreme amount like 16 MPSs (which has the benefit of making raising the dead much harder). Also do you see a problem using a similar approach (without the healing part) to create a spell to capture someone’s soul and put it in a jar (Magic Jar)?

 

So that’s it!  What suggestions would you have? 

Thanks!

 

PS - Sorry for the missing tables.  I couldn't copy them over...

Edited by rsanford

Check out our homebrew rules for freeform magic in BRP ->

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  • 2 months later...

It seems that I've hit some sort of block on Deep Magic.  I've got an outline and some other scribbling down but I need to flesh it out a bit.  So, I might jump over to building a better demon or the runically prepared wizard.

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