The caravel and the carrack (nao) for Ships & Shield Walls

[Harshax]

I'm preparing notes for an alternate-History campaign set in the Caribbean that diverges from real world history shortly after Columbus' second voyage. The primary vessels in the region are kayaks, (war) canoes, caravels, and carracks (or nau).

 

I was wondering if anyone had stats on these last two vessels? I don't recall RQ3 having stats for vessels older than the 10th century - knorr and cog. I have some information on crew capacity for caravels but only anecdotal information about nau.

 

Baring that, can anyone point me to good historical resources about these vessels?

 

I guess I also need to start putting stats together for canons and the various vicious ways people killed each other with black powder siege weapons. I have RQ6 firearms which will be an excellent guide.

[Harshax]

I downloaded the Renaissance SRD, but sadly, there isn't anything about ships within. This is surprising to me since the period overlapped so much with the 'Age of Sail'.

 

I have found a gem or two, which I'll share below. Later tonight or tomorrow, I'll start laying out stats and ask for input.

 

Bayonese cogs, Genoese carracks, English dromons and Breton carvels — Late medieval technology transfer in northern and southern European shipbuilding - A Maritime Archaelology blog post by Daniel Zwick

[Jae]

Edit: I should read the title more closer before suggesting things

 

Have you checked out Ships & Shield Walls or Blood Tide?

 

http://www.thedesignmechanism.com/products.php#!/Ships-&-Shield-Walls-PDF-only/p/36842450/category=5186110

http://www.chaosium.com/blood-tide/

 

I don't have either of them, but someone here might be able to confirm if they have relevant information for you.

[Atgxtg]

I think there were Caravel stats in Chaosium's White Wolf book for Stormbringer. THey use a format that is pretty much the same as the one used for RQ3. 

 

I think I have some notes for statting them up in BRP, too. I'm not familar with the stats used for ships in RQ6, but if you let me know what they got, I'll see what I can do. 

[Harshax]

In my reading, I realize that black powder shouldn't be a huge element in a game set in this era, nor should naval warfare.

Most naval warfare involved ramming or boarding actions via bow-to-bow confrontations.

The culverin should be a rare and shocking encounter. The petard would be more common than the hand cannon. The technological height of the middle ages would be rare and powerful in the Caribbean and black powder is moreso fantastic, strange and terrifying.

The most important attributes for caravels and naus is sailing speeds for chases and maneuvers.

[Atgxtg]

Sailing speed is probably more a factor of heading and wind strength, too. Hull shape and streamlining certainly helps, but with a sailing ship wind and sail configuration is key. You're not going to gain on someone if you got a headwind, and he doesn't. 

[Harshax]

Found another good web-article about caravels. The author seems to have determined that a caravel is no more than 20 tons. With a crew of nine plus, I'd gauge its size as M.  A nau, with tonnage ranging from 500 - 1000 would be of the colossal category in Ships & Shield Walls.

 

Need to do some reading on clinker versus other methods of building boats to determine AP and Hit Points.

[Atgxtg]

Be wary, all tonnages are not the same -especially when dealing with older ships.

 

Sometimes people mean cargo tonnage, other times they mean deadweight tonnage, still other times they mean gross registered tonnage, and still yet other times they mean displacement. As a result, you can see "tonnage" ratings between 100 and 500 for the same ship. 

 

Stuff I've seen on caravels show an average cargo capacity of around 40-50 tons, and an average gross tonnage or displacement  of around 100 tons. 

[Harshax]

Stuff I've seen on caravels show an average cargo capacity of around 40-50 tons, and an average gross tonnage or displacement  of around 100 tons. 

 

Do you have non-wikipedia references?

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, for starters:

http://ageofex.marinersmuseum.org/index.php?type=shiptype&id=1

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/inventors/page/c/caravel.shtml

http://www.thenina.com

http://www.christopher-columbus.eu/columbus-ships.htm

 

If I wasn't right in the middle of a Blizzard I could go to the library and get a couple of books. 

 

Oh, and notice that the tonnages for the Nina (50-75 tons) and Pinta (70-101) tons vary depending on source. This is partially due to the method used to calculate tonnage. Back in the old days, they used to estimate tonnage based on length, beam, and draught, with a fudge factor to account for the curvature of the hull. It wasn't an exact science. 

 

It started to turn into a science when the British launched a ship which sank right out of drydock. 

[Atgxtg]

Oh, just a heads up on cannon. Most RPG stats for RQ and related RPGs tend to have it so that one cannot hit would do a lot of damage to a ship, and a full broadside would easily sink a ship. 

 

Realistically, a single cannon ball isn't going to be much of a threat to a ship. Yes, it might punch a hole in one, damage the rigging, or even knock down a mast. And they certainly can decimate the crew or sink a rowboat easy enough. But, realistically, it's the cumulative effect of multiple hits that disable or sink a ship. That's why these ships could slug it out for hours. You pretty much need to roll a critical to really affect a ship with a single hit. It's like throwing marbles at an elephant. 

 

What you might want to do is work out a damage rating based on the weight of the broadside. For example, you could tale the total weight of shot fired and read it as the "Unit Frontage" on the Unit damage table on page 21 of S&S. If you factor in the ship's armor rating, it might not work out too badly. Or you might need to use a fraction of the weight. 

 

 

If you just wanted one roll for the whole ship then:

Crtical: 200% of weight (or 2d6x10%+130%)

Special: 150% of Weight (or 2d6x10%+80%)

Success: 100% of Weight (or 2d6x10%+30%)

Failure: About 50% (or 2d4x10%) weight

Fumble: About 25% (or 1d4x10%) of weight.

 

If you wanted to factor in for each gunl then:

Critical: 2 x weight (for that gun)

Special: 1.5 x weight (for that gun)

Failure: Gun missed (do not add in)

Fumble: Gun failed to fire, mishap (do not add in)

[Harshax]

Thanks for your help with this research. I like to be precise when I do games grounded in reality. Cannons weren't mounted broadside until the earliest 1500's. I'll probably save this for a special encounter.

[Atgxtg]

Cannon's weren't mounted broadside, but damage was still by weight of shot rather than per gun. You're still going to end up with a half dozen to a dozen guns or so being fired at once. At least to start with. Once the battle gets going reloading can get  interesting. Ammo didn't get standardized until the time of the Spanish Armarda.

[Harshax]

Cannon's weren't mounted broadside, but damage was still by weight of shot rather than per gun. You're still going to end up with a half dozen to a dozen guns or so being fired at once. At least to start with. Once the battle gets going reloading can get  interesting. Ammo didn't get standardized until the time of the Spanish Armarda.

 

I would be shocked to learn that you could mount more than one or two, fore or aft, of any sailing vessel. I'm not a naval warfare historian, but guns in the time of Columbus and Cortes were huge and probably a waste of space for missions primarily surrounding exploration. 

[soltakss]

I thought that naval guns in the time of Columbus and Cortes were quite small and hardly worth mounting on ships. 

 

Navies used cannons in earnest when they became large enough to do real damage.

[Harshax]

I thought that naval guns in the time of Columbus and Cortes were quite small and hardly worth mounting on ships. 

 

Navies used cannons in earnest when they became large enough to do real damage.

 

This is also the conclusion I've arrived at using my non-academic research skills. Naval warfare still mirrored land warfare. Archers fought from the stern castle and boarding actions took place when ships were bow-to-bow. It is no wonder that the Age of Sail is a much more popular period of time for campaigns featuring the Caribbean. 

 

Here's a neat tidbit too, an early gunner was known as a culveriner.

[Verderer]

Bit late in the party, but I think Arms & Equipment for Legend (and probably MRQII?) there are stats for carrack (and galleon). Not for caravel though, I think. Assuming of course, that the ship rules aren't too different from RQ6? And Pirates of Legend has more ships as well, but not for those two.