Iskallor

Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

331 posts in this topic

So, let's carry on my old thread from over on the Glorantha.com forum.

The Long Nose Tribe, gone, perhaps hidden.

Were they connected to Teshnos in some way? Have they vanished there perhaps?

When did they vanish, in the Second Age, the Dawn?

And the Plains Elk, not really something I'd have expected in a place like Prax. Did it get to hot for them?

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I recall that the long noses weren't elephants, but some strange Pleistocene hoofed herbivore with a nose/snout similar to that of a Saiga antelope, but longer.

The Plains Elk aren't Plains Moose, to stop a revival of that ancient chestnut of Glorantha discussions. They are a kind of antlered large grazing herbivore. Ok, possibly with a body shape reminding of moose.

If you want to wonder about climate adaptation, the bison are the most blatant misfits wrt climate.

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Good idea moving this over. The forum content to planed to move here at some point, but don't hold your breath.

On the subject of lost tribes, I was reading threads about this between @Joerg and Sandy yesterday:

> I don't think the plains elk of Prax was a  
> moose variety. It might have been a version of the now-extinct Great  Elk (usually miscalled the Irish Elk in the U.S.A.), which we know to  have existed in Ralios before the Dawn. 

You talk about the Irish Deer, certainly. <grins pedantically, though not obnoxiously so> Since you're the biology expert, what environment did the Irish Deer live in? If it was pre-dawn Ralios, there was the Great Primeval Forest. However, Prax and Genert's Garden were somewhat dense Savannah as well at that time, cf. the Oakfed story. Did the lost tribes of Praxian Beast Riders die out when the Oakfed deforestation took their means of subsistance from them? (Not immediately, but constantly declining.)

>Did the lost tribes of Praxian Beast Riders die out when the Oakfed deforestation took their means of subsistance from them?

    No doubt this made an initial impact. The gradually deteriorating nature of the Wastes during Godtime probably also took its toll. Note that in the First Age, the Rhino Riders nearly went extinct. While the Rhinos narrowly avoided this fate, the Nose-Horn folk might not have been so adaptable. 

 

    The Nose-Horn folk, by the way, were Synceros riders -- an antelope-like animal with three horns. Two over the eyes and one down near the nose which forked near the end. They were probably pygmies.

 

---

 

Basically how I'm going to play it in the Prax book is that there were originally 21 tribes of 2-legs/4-Legs. Add in the Zebra's that didn't get their humans until Time began and you have a list of the tribes.

 

You will notice that we are missing the names of some of the tribes, this leaves space for GMs and players to invent stupendous stories about the other tribes and what they were and whether they will return and what if they do. Let the speculation begin.

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Joerg said:

I recall that the long noses weren't elephants, but some strange Pleistocene hoofed herbivore with a nose/snout similar to that of a Saiga antelope, but longer

Yes this is what I had imagined, but then I've had other folk mention elephants to me.

 

news-horse-relative.jpg

Fourhornedantelope.jpg

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When do the Sable riders of the Hungry Plateau reunite with their Praxian brethren?

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I guess that the Lunar-friendly Sable clans may consider emigrating to Kostaddi after the Battle of Pavis. There are plenty other Sable rider clans that are friendly to the White Bull, and I don't think that these might be interested in taking up closer relations to the heretic exiles of Kostaddi.

The Antelope Lancers from Kostaddi have this joke (according to Sandy) - "What has six legs, two horns, and an asshole on its back?" - about the feral Lunar-friendly Sable clans due to these folks' attitude. This doesn't bode well for any reunion.

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It would be foolish to think that the Lunars just marched into Prax in 1610 without any preparation. From 1602 onwards, small scouting parties were sent into Prax. Eventually Sable Riders from the Hungry Plateaux were sent to do the reconnaissance as it was obvious that they would be perceived as less of a threat by the tribes. During this time the distant cousins met. Two important revelations are made; the first is that they claim they are from a lost sable phratry, the second is that their primary spirit society, the Twinstars is the same as the Hidden Ancestor spirit society of the Praxians but with a shaman path. It didn't take long for a Twinstar shaman to reach Prax and reveal the shaman path the Praxians didn't have and to summon their protectress in the original holy land. Within a few years two of the sable phratries became Lunarised much to the dismay of the other three. It was after the first battle of Moonbroth that the whole tribe polarised. One phratry remained neutral but the other two became anti-lunar. It didn't help that the tribal chief Inire (later Inire the Red) was the Khan of one of the pro lunar phratries. As one of the many stipulations of the Armistice of Prax, he was declared Paps Khan by Egajia, the Most Respected Elder. However he did not take up residence at the Paps as was normal for the Paps Khan. He lived in permanent luxury at Moonbroth, only occasionally doing his duty at the Paps. This broke many taboos, and Waha seemingly did nothing. At the Paps, most of his duties would have been taken over by the Paps Storm Khan, but he was a Bison Rider outlawed like his kin after Moonbroth. His stealthy visits were few and far between. Fortunately another sable Khan Roneer the Hue, from one of the anti-lunar phratries secretly steps in.

Later when Argrath, Jaldon and Samistina arrive at the Paps, Egajia declares Jaldon Paps Khan (as is usual), breaks the Armistice of Prax and declares Inire an outlaw. At the second battle of Moonbroth, the two pro-lunar phratries are slaughtered, any survivors must have their Praxian God speak out for them or die. Inire is killed in single combat by Roneer. No one returns to the Hungry Plateaux except as ghosts. 

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Don't forget that many of the Praxian nations have small clans on the Hungry Plateau, not just the Sable Riders. The difference is that the Sable Riders have the Twin Stars, who are intimately connected with their mythology and helped with the Great Sable Conversion. The other nations don't have that Lunar connection, so are sidelined.

 

One of the RQ supplements, can't remember which one, had a Lunar nobleman whose clan owned a herd of bison on the Hungry Plateau. He might even have been a Yelm follower, but my memories fade.

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@soltakss, I don't think this is true anymore. The Hungry Plateau in size is smaller than the Eiritha Hills. The population comparison is Praxian Sables: 75000 (140 clans), Hungry Plateau Sables : 40000 (75 clans). Given the population pressure on the land, other tribes wouldn't just be edged out, they'd be exterminated. The Sables on the plateau clearly are supported by magical means, raiding other tribes just isn't going to work in an area about 40 miles by 65 miles. There maybe small herds of ritually kept beasts of other types, but I doubt they have riders.

Edited by David Scott

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Following up on the previous two posts, some of you may be interested to see this

Comparison.png

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7 hours ago, David Scott said:

@soltakss, I don't think this is true anymore. The Hungry Plateau in size is smaller than the Eiritha Hills. The population comparison is Praxian Sables: 75000 (140 clans), Hungry Plateaux Sables : 40000 (75 clans). Given the population pressure on the land, other tribes wouldn't just be edged out, they'd be exterminated. The Sables on the plateaux clearly are supported by magical means, raiding other tribes just isn't going to work in an area about 40 miles by 65 miles. There maybe small herds of ritually kept beasts of other types, but I doubt they have riders.

That's a shame, as it means that the other Praxians who helped drive out the Pure Horse People from peloria didn't get to settle on the Hungry Plateau and were not given a place in the area.

While I agree that the Sables would be dominant, thanks to the Great Sable Conversion, I don;t see why the other tribes would be exterminated. Weaker than and dominated by the sables, yes, but exterminated?

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6 minutes ago, soltakss said:

That's a shame, as it means that the other Praxians who helped drive out the Pure Horse People from peloria didn't get to settle on the Hungry Plateau and were not given a place in the area.

They were given places in the area.  It's just that they were rewarded with better places than the Hungry Plateau.  As per sidebar p313 of the Guide, the Sable Tribe was given Kostaddi while the Bison received Sylila and Vanch.  

Being given the Hungry Plateau as a reward would be kind of like giving invaders the local tip as a reward for seizing a city.  I think instead the Hungry Plateau was settled some time after the battle of Argentium Thi'rile by Sable overlords worried about the decline of their native traditions.

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Plus you can still find Bison and Sable herds wandering through Balazar and the Elder Wilds.

Of course, the Bison Riders of Vanch were naturally corrupted and transformed by the Vanchites over the years so while you can find odd remnants there, they bear no resemblance to what they originally were.  I suspect in Sylila that the bison riders were largely absorbed into the local Orlanthi culture and probably made up a large percent of Storm Bull followers over time.

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Plus you can still find Bison and Sable herds wandering through Balazar and the Elder Wilds.

Bison and sable antelopes are common in Pent, too, without any overt Praxian connection. They are described as "northern bison, giant sable, and red sable" - perhaps to make a slight distinction to the barely domesticated Praxian varieties.

I don't expect the original sable rider grant to be exactly in the borders of Kostaddi satrapy - I seem to recall bison descended dynasties from riverine Kostaddi satrapy, too. I still think that sending one of these Yelmite bison families into the River of Cradles would be good fun for exploring their roots. Possibly as settlers in Sun County rather than the Grantlands, or at least refugees to Sun County when the Grantlands are overrun.

 

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13 hours ago, metcalph said:

They were given places in the area.  It's just that they were rewarded with better places than the Hungry Plateau.  As per sidebar p313 of the Guide, the Sable Tribe was given Kostaddi while the Bison received Sylila and Vanch.  

Being given the Hungry Plateau as a reward would be kind of like giving invaders the local tip as a reward for seizing a city.  I think instead the Hungry Plateau was settled some time after the battle of Argentium Thi'rile by Sable overlords worried about the decline of their native traditions.

OK, that makes more sense.

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Where can I find a list of how many people in each Praxian Tribe (Major and Minor) and number of clans if possible.

I see up thread there are 75,000 sables and 140 clans.

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Population numbers are in the Guide (or the Genertela Box).

500 heads per clan is the number that has been used for most population calculations throughout these numbers, and probably applies universally wherever something like a clan can be identified. Whether those units actually stay together is yet another question. I guess that this is about the number you need for a genetically and culturally viable unit, give or take a factor between 0.25 and 4. (And the old chestnut who is counted among these numbers - children, slaves...)

In Prax, this may be somewhat different due to different herd sizes (but then the ratio of herd beasts per owner does vary between the tribes, too, with far from all Rhino riders actually owning a tribal mount (if that ancient statement by Sandy still is official). Not that rhinos ever conformed to the term "herd beast" - they are about as gregarious as bears. Which leaves us in the strange situation that we have societies of humans forming communities that cannot conform with the life style of their totemic beasts. But that's probably better discussed in a separate thread.

 

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As @Joerg said the population numbers are in the Guide. 500 per clan is the number used for Prax, with the usual number of half for children (25% Men, 25% women, 50% children). Slaves are extra and not counted in any of the following figures. 

 

Bison

High Llama

Sable

Morocanth

Impala

Actual clans

                             

150

120

140

150

230

These are the current figures for 1621, this will of course change in a few years. Don't divide clans into population to get clan size, the numbers are slightly askew to get variable sizes e.g. a few bison clans are 1000 people! A clan is spread out, normally into its septs. The structure is families group into septs, septs group into clans, clans into tribes. The sables have an extra step: families group into septs, septs group into clans, clans group into phratries, phratries group into tribes. Average family size is 24, families per sept varies with tribe but between 4 to 9, septs vary per tribe but between 3 to 5. There are currently five phratries, with the Hungry Plateaux sables being a lost sixth, legend has it that there were once seven. Each phratry has it's own Protectress!

Under the Covenant, rhinos behave like herd beasts. One of the effects the Covenant has is let undomesticated animals live in much closer proximity than normal. So normally solitary rhinos will happily live in tight herds. As soon as a wild beast enters a herd it becomes a herd beast. There is a welcoming song that binds them to the Covenant, and one to welcome other types of herd beast into the herd. 

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With all these cool posts, David - my question is when will we see the Prax book

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Morokanth.

There's 80,000 of them, same as the Bison riders.  What size are their clans and how big are their herds of Gern? 

Where do all these Morokanth hang out? They can't all be in the Zola Fel area. I have Hoofcrack oasis in their grubby paws but I can't see them traipsing out in the Wastes that much. Would they be over on the edge of Teshnos? Lots of slaves out that way. 

 

Edited by Iskallor

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I want to play an awakened Gern for my next character, who becomes a hero. My name would be Mork.

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Morokanth are just as spread out as the other tribes. Clan size is the same 500 as the others, split as with the others 25% male, 25% female, 50% children. Herd-men numbers perhaps later. Personally I'm not a fan of the name Gern. We've not used it in the Guide, HQG or Pavis IIRC.

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Is there a tradition of Tricksters in Prax? If so how to the locals deal with them?

 

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Hyena is a well-known Trickster who makes peace by getting people to sit down and then telling them dirty jokes.

Raven is a Trickster with a Thief aspect.

They have their own sacred societies, I would expect. Members of those societies would then perform Trickster duties on tribal/clan HeroQuests.

 

 

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