Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[David Scott]

In short there is no tradition of tricksters in Prax. Even in the First Age when the Lightbringers came, Eurmal's cult was the one that didn't find a place in the Praxian tradition. There's not any room for a trickster in the Wastes as normal rules apply to them - kill them. Most "tricking" is done by evil spirits or malicious shamans, some spirits of the tradition are perceived by outsiders to have tricksterish traits, but this is just a misunderstanding of their true roles: Raven's theft aspect is just that, he's a thief with no self control, hyena is Genert's devourer, tricksters devour through greed, but his was necessity. His laughing bark taunts Praxians with with his duality as a predator and sacred animal. 

[TRose]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2015 at 10:46 AM, Iskallor said:

Morokanth.

There's 80,000 of them, same as the Bison riders.  What size are their clans and how big are their herds of Gern? 

Where do all these Morokanth hang out? They can't all be in the Zola Fel area. I have Hoofcrack oasis in their grubby paws but I can't see them traipsing out in the Wastes that much. Would they be over on the edge of Teshnos? Lots of slaves out that way. 

 

 I think there could be a few at Dead bottom as 5 Serpents come together there so there should be a little water there all the time. But its also has large chaos nest all around it so the clans that live there are going to those on the losing end of tribal wars and perhaps have lots  of chaos fighter

[Noita]

So the Thirstless Spirit Society.

 

These are the holders of the Water Rune in the Wastes, the High Llamas and other oddballs.  Are they the appeasers of wild serpents, the water diviners and ? How useful are they in the depths of the desert.

Who are their spirits? As Waha followers doesn't this put them in conflict with these spirits? Until they have accomplished some hero quests such as Waha and the River and Waha and the serpents I presume?

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Iskallor said:

So the Thirstless Spirit Society.

These are the holders of the Water Rune in the Wastes, the High Llamas and other oddballs.  Are they the appeasers of wild serpents, the water diviners and ? How useful are they in the depths of the desert.

Who are their spirits? As Waha followers doesn't this put them in conflict with these spirits? Until they have accomplished some hero quests such as Waha and the River and Waha and the serpents I presume?

The oases are all manifestations of water spirits in the Wastes. They are holy places for all Waha-ites, and there is a lot of mutual respect. Waha visits the oases and does his things about the Protectresses and the altars. No overt hostility here.

Then there are the water spirits we know from Nomad Gods - led by Zola Fel, including Dew Maiden and River Horse. I cannot recall any hostility between Waha and Zola Fel.

The untamed serpents of the Wastes and also Prax are different. They are violent invaders, much like the Godtime waters of the second Flooding (which saw the creation of Worcha). They threaten herds and clans when they rush by. Violent invaders must be fought.

 

[David Scott]

Before I get on the Thirstless spirit society, the Wastes are not a desert. Chaparral is the better term, water is present, it rains, depending where you are it can be hot or cool. The ground has scrub and plants, standing water exists in some places. As the earth is hard, flash floods are a danger. The Wastes main problem is the Earth's fertility is gone, not the lack of water.

 

[David Scott]

The Thirstless spirit society is one of a group called the many friends. This group of societies caters for those with elemental proclivity (In HQG terms they have an elemental rune as one of their three runes). They are also the home for a range of spirits with the same elemental rune that Waha met, befriended and rescued in the Great Darkness. There's no Earth society as this covered by the Paps and there's no Air society as those spirits were gifted to Orlanth when the Lightbringer cults arrived after the Dawn. They are small (in comparison to the other societies) and based mostly with their associated major tribe, although there are splinters in all of the tribes (except the Agimori), so there are about 19500 Thirstless members of which 16500 are in the High Llama tribe. These societies are characterised by having no shaman path, open to men and women, and being led by a shaman of one of the other paths (Waha, Eiritha, Daka Fal etc). Although the members of these societies share a common tradition, many of the societies practices vary from the ways of Waha and Eiritha. These variations are accepted as normal as all the spirits are Waha's friends from the Great Darkness.

"This spirit society is primarily found in the High Llama tribe and is popular amongst the Morokanth, it teaches members how to work with Water spirits. It should be noted that Prax's water spirits hold an antipathy towards Waha due to his actions with the Sounder's river in the Great Darkness. However many Praxians have the Water Rune (water) and the Water spirits of Prax cannot but help acknowledge this. In their case, their Waha connection is overlooked. Waha members without the Water Rune may never have Water related charms, and Water spirits are generally hostile towards them."

The spirits of the society are pretty obvious if you know Nomad Gods and other publications (same for the other societies)...

(water) Zola Fel

(water) Dew Maid

(water) Frog Woman. Frog Woman survived the destruction during the Great Darkness by staying one leap ahead of her foes. Since the Dawn of Time she has been a source of charms that allow leaping great distances through the air, summoning her children (intelligent Traskar spirits), and other frog related magics. She is a benevolent being, a relic of happier days, and can only be contacted at an oasis or on the banks of the River of Cradles. With her leaping magic, a skilled spirit practitioner can jump up to 25 miles, and a shaman may carry friends as well. The taboos of these charms are to Carry a dried frog in a bag around your neck and Use the Peaceful Cut when butchering frogs and other amphibians.

(water) Moonbroth

(water) Oases Spirits

(water) River Horse

(Water) Other Water spirits (elementals, minor river spirits, serpents)

Society members are skilled at dealing with water spirits and never have to fight the serpents, they are water friends. Waha Khans with a water rune that are members of this society could control the serpents for their own benefit in war. 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The oases are all manifestations of water spirits in the Wastes. They are holy places for all Waha-ites, and there is a lot of mutual respect. Waha visits the oases and does his things about the Protectresses and the altars. No overt hostility here.

Then there are the water spirits we know from Nomad Gods - led by Zola Fel, including Dew Maiden and River Horse. I cannot recall any hostility between Waha and Zola Fel.

The untamed serpents of the Wastes and also Prax are different. They are violent invaders, much like the Godtime waters of the second Flooding (which saw the creation of Worcha). They threaten herds and clans when they rush by. Violent invaders must be fought.

 

IIRC, Zola Fel is hostile to Waha because Waha forced Zola Fel's sister out of her course to wash away the remains of the devil.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

IIRC, Zola Fel is hostile to Waha because Waha forced Zola Fel's sister out of her course to wash away the remains of the devil.

You remember correctly, River of Cradles p173 Zola Fell cult writeup "Zola Fel has special hate for Waha, for in the Darkness Waha degraded and polluted Zola Fel's sister, the Good river, forcing her to wash away the remains of the Devil."

Come on @Joerg you're slipping :-)

[Joerg]

Sorry, @David Scott, yes, I am slipping - I was thinking of the clashing of arms and magic, which hasn't happened. Waha's people do cross the Zola Fel regularly, and few are the cases where a khan is drowned by an angry floodwave.

And if you look at the rivers monomyth, washing away bad chaos and closing rifts is thre most honorable thing a river can do. Although the Syphon gets some bad press for syphoning off some of the Creekstream River's waters to deal with the Foulblood void in the Footprint, Sky River Titan set the example, and the rivers of the world followed suit. Waha only helped the Good River to do the godly work.

[Noita]

So is there anything folk can give me about the bolo lizard riders? Favourite cults, creation myths etc.

[Noita]

And another one...

Ransoms. Do nomads accept them or even seek them out, or are they content to keep prisoners as slaves?

I think it's been mentioned before that Praxians will raid to get back their people.

What would a ransom for an average nomad likely be? A herd beast or two?

[David Scott]

It really depends on who is being raided. Native Praxians are not ideal captives; they can ride any herd beast, survive in the Wastes, know the land, and understand the magics of their captors. So when raiding other tribes, the main goal is herd beasts - food, glory, wealth and marriage dowry. Taking native prisoners is just going to slow you down, unless you can render them harmless. The reasons for kidnapping and ransoming a Praxian is the realms of storytelling and not normal as you mentioned, they will raid to get them back. This kind of raiding is the sort that gets people killed and not really the Way of Waha, as it can turn to war. If natives are taken, then they are offloaded onto the Morokanth. Offloading stops the retaliatory raiding and preserves the balance. In order of ransom preference; weapons, trade goods, herd beasts. The Morokanth are good slavers and know how to look after people as well as herd men. The slaver clans only really exist at the boundaries of the Wastes, where outsiders are important. Raiding foreigners for prisoners is for slaves and ransom. Those who need support to survive in the Wastes are preferred, so escape is not an option. A mounted Lunar soldier is not a good choice; can fight, can ride, would try to escape. Raiding for slave wives/husbands is rare except amongst Khans who have something to prove. They dilute your bloodline.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

It really depends on who is being raided. Native Praxians are not ideal captives; they can ride any herd beast, survive in the Wastes, know the land, and understand the magics of their captors. So when raiding other tribes, the main goal is herd beasts - food, glory, wealth and marriage dowry. Taking native prisoners is just going to slow you down, unless you can render them harmless.

There's the (old?) canon example of Norayeep and her brother from Cults of Prax and:

Pimper’s Block is the name of a thriving slave market on the border between Dragon Pass and Prax. Here triumphant warriors come to send their conquered foes into exile for a profit, and here the defeated come to ransom their kin or cult mate. Buyers from the Holy Country and the Lunar Empire also are here to purchase whatever exotic specimens their masters require or desire.

[David Scott]

The Pimpers Block market still exists. I'm not saying there's no native Praxians sold as slaves, just as a percentage of the population it's low. Conquered foes also covers foreigners. I can see raiding to order being profitable to some small bands and clans. 

[Noita]

David, what is the Bolo Lizard's rune? I'm presuming Earth as aren't they descendants of those who lived in the Golden Age. I think I remember seeing that they are connected to the Movement Rune too.

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Pimpers Block market still exists. I'm not saying there's no native Praxians sold as slaves, just as a percentage of the population it's low. Conquered foes also covers foreigners. I can see raiding to order being profitable to some small bands and clans. 

Perhaps, but it seems to reflect the idea that selling captured foes who couldn't be or weren't desirable to be assimilated into the tribe was very widespread. Foreigners wouldn't be sent into exile by being sold to other foreigners at Pimper's Block.

Instead it appears to reflect a mechanism whereby a ransom could be obtained by forcing the prisoner's relatives to buy them back or else foreign exchange (coins, goods, especially metals) could be obtained. It seems to be primarily Praxians selling Praxians, and in sufficient numbers to draw buyers from the Holy Country and Lunar Empire. Prior to the invasion of Sartar by the Lunars, perhaps it was also a place where Sartarites could buy back kin captured in nomad raids.

Given the ongoing cycle of conflict between the Praxians whereby a tribe becomes powerful enough to dominate Prax, forcing its rivals into the Wastelands - until they come back sufficiently lean and tough to wrest control back - it seems a likely place for captured members of tribes defeated and driven off over the River of Cradles to be disposed of.

[TRose]

 I have   two question to ad

Did  the original 21 tribe of the Covenant of Waha include the Loper tribe? I know they range far and wide , but the only people who say they still exist are the tribes of Prax.

 And has any thing else ever been written about the Magical societies in Prax.. I been thinking of running the Red Mask society as Illuminated Shamans allied to the Lunar Empire

 

[David Scott]

The Red School of Masks (dying phase) 
One of the newest spirit societies in the Wastelands. Attracting shamans, madmen, and
other petty magicians who found their magical ways synergizing with those of the Red
Moon. Bolstered by the teachings of its newly arrived followers, the resulting spirit
society became greater than the sum of its parts. It is now a powerful school bridging the
worlds between the Praxian and Lunar traditions. Called the Loonies for their strange rites,
many who are attracted to these new ways are driven mad by the experience. They are
based at Oasis of Moonbroth.

if you've read Pavis: GtA you'll know that it's led by Jakaleel the Witch shaman and spirit talkers. My take on it is that it's experimental magic using some of Moonbroth's fractured knowledge. I think Tatius is keeping them at arms length until they do something useful, if they do, they'll relocate to the New Lunar Temple. No good will come from it (other than slavering chaos monsters).

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, TRose said:

Did  the original 21 tribe of the Covenant of Waha include the Loper tribe? I know they range far and wide , but the only people who say they still exist are the tribes of Prax.

 

No, the Lopers weren't native to Prax or included in the Covenant. The Zaranistangi arrived from Pamaltela and went west from Prax, being defeated by the Seshnegi in the Second Age in 805 when they attempted to conquer Slontos. They reappear during the Hero Wars, being returned by a Melibite Hero.

[TRose]

One problem I would see about raiding tribes for Wives/Husband although very common  in history, you have the size problem in Prax. If an Impala warrior captured a Sable woman and kept her as a wife, she would have to ride a captured beast, and what size would their children be? Although Eritha might make sure all children born into the Pygmy tribes come out the right size and children born into the other tribes grow to proper size even if one parent is a Pygmy.

[M Helsdon]

16 minutes ago, TRose said:

One problem I would see about raiding tribes for Wives/Husband although very common  in history, you have the size problem in Prax.

In our world where similar intermarriage occurs it is almost always Pygmy women marrying outside their group - in West Africa such Pygmy-Bantu marriages are not uncommon. 

[TRose]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

In our world where similar intermarriage occurs it is almost always Pygmy women marrying outside their group - in West Africa such Pygmy-Bantu marriages are not uncommon. 

 

True, but the Bantu are also the dominate ethnic group where Pygmy and Bantu mingle.

 That not true in Prax where the Impala tribe( And Bolo Lizard and Ostrich tribe) can give as good as it take.

 I read some place(Drastic Resolution Prax I think) that the Impala tribe conduct more raids then the other tribes.

Edited January 20, 2016 by TRose

[TRose]

  Also we know the Nomads raid Teshos and Kralorea when they can so do they take slave from those places and sell them at Pavis or Moonbroth. Granted its a distance across inhospitable land , but the  slave trade was carried across the Sahara desert which is longer and perhaps worse then the waste.

[David Scott]

There's a magical ecology that's present in Prax that protects all of this sort of stuff - the Covenant. Inter tribal marriage in what ever form is going to present problems. You don't want tribespeople of the wrong size as riding is going to be an issue. Real world genetics has no part in this. It's an "or" situation. To use an extreme example Pygmies and High Llama people. Their offspring will be pygmy build or High Llama build. If the wrong type, they will be fostered back to their proper people. I suspect in overall numbers this is not going to be common. The family of the clan they came from will be happy to have a new member.

Edited January 21, 2016 by David Scott

[M Helsdon]

16 hours ago, TRose said:

True, but the Bantu are also the dominate ethnic group where Pygmy and Bantu mingle.

Intermarriage between Pygmies and non-Pygmies occurs in several areas: Bantu/Pygmy contact in the western region is several thousand years old whilst sudanic/pygmy contact in the eastern region is less than a thousand years old, based on genetic data. Neither indicates any mismatch arising from relative size.

16 hours ago, TRose said:

 That not true in Prax where the Impala tribe( And Bolo Lizard and Ostrich tribe) can give as good as it take.

And so would take captives from other tribes. The Bolo-Lizard Folk and Ostrich are both minor tribes, and the Impala have been driven out of Prax into Vulture Country. Whilst the Sables remain dominant as Lunar Allies the Impala tribe will remain out on the fringes of the Wastelands.

Relative numbers:

Impala 120,000
Bolo Lizard Folk 2100
Ostrich Clan 1200

16 hours ago, TRose said:

 I read some place(Drastic Resolution Prax I think) that the Impala tribe conduct more raids then the other tribes.

Much in Drastic Resolutions Prax is not canonical.

Edited January 21, 2016 by M Helsdon