New RQ Designer Notes - Part 4

[nDervish]

19 hours ago, threedeesix said:

Even when playing a non-class based game, my players like to specialize. One wants to be the thief, one the spell caster, one the healer, etc. They find that the Experience Roll award system lets them retain that aspect, where a skill check system typically doesn't. They don't necessarily want to be told that only the thief can climb walls (as in AD&D), but the thief wants to be the best at it.

Check-based advancement can cover specialization implicitly:  The one who wants to be the thief does thief stuff.  The one who wants to be the spell caster casts spells.  The one who wants to be the healer heals.  If they're the ones using those skills the most, then they're going to be the ones getting the most checks on those skills and will be the ones who are most likely to improve in them.  The thief is the best at climbing walls because he's the one who climbs walls most often.

Also, training.  Even if everyone uses all skills equally during the session, they can still choose to each train within their specializations during downtime.  Although, if they're choosing to all use all skills equally during the session, I'd question whether they really want specialization anyhow.

31 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

I think few people are getting what Atg is trying to say. The point is that the tickbox approach makes characters advance also in areas where they would not - normally - wish to "spend" a limited resource. Yet it is quite dull that after spending half of a session on  a tree a character does not improve Climb because the player wishes to privilege Dodge and Crossbow instead.

One great thing about the tickbox method is that the character sheet itself tells you your character's history. That odd +4% in Sleight of Hand is there for a reason, not just because you did not know where to put that last IR.

Yes, to both points!  Using a skill leads to getting better at that skill and, conversely, if you're good at a skill, it's because you've been using (and/or training) that skill.  That's what I like about check-based advancement.

[Atgxtg]

Yup Rosen, that's it. 

With the tickbox method, characters advance in the skills they use as opposed to the skills they want to advance in. What seems to happen when the GM assigns a certain number of improvement rolls is that players try to max out a handful of skills and let everything else rot. The group starts to look like a bunch of idiot savants. Sword, Shield and Ride at 150% but can't tie their shoe laces.  

[Texarkana]

The way I got around my RQ6 players always spending their first six improvement checks on Combat Style, Endurance, Evade, Willpower and Magic Skills, was to start giving them 10+ improvement checks whenever a significant quest was concluded (typically around 4-6 game sessions, or once every 2-3 months real time). 

I thought I had on improvement, but have not actually tried, is to allow a player to increase all of the profession skills the character has (typically around 10 skills in RQ6), and then give them a smaller number of improvement rolls to allocate as they please.

[Warthur]

11 hours ago, nDervish said:

Check-based advancement can cover specialization implicitly:  The one who wants to be the thief does thief stuff.  The one who wants to be the spell caster casts spells.  The one who wants to be the healer heals.  If they're the ones using those skills the most, then they're going to be the ones getting the most checks on those skills and will be the ones who are most likely to improve in them.  The thief is the best at climbing walls because he's the one who climbs walls most often.

Exactly. Tickboxes are great for prompting players to step up like that. (It works brilliantly with the personality traits in Pendragon - if you want your knight to be the most courageous in all the land, he's going to have to behave consistently courageously.)

[simonh]

17 hours ago, Texarkana said:

The way I got around my RQ6 players always spending their first six improvement checks on Combat Style, Endurance, Evade, Willpower and Magic Skills, was to start giving them 10+ improvement checks whenever a significant quest was concluded (typically around 4-6 game sessions, or once every 2-3 months real time). 

I used exactly the same method in my last HeroQuest game, many years ago now. Small drives and drabs improvements always went to the same abilities, but less frequent but larger tranches of ponts resulted in much more satisfactory improvenent patterns IMHO.

Simon Hibbs

[simonh]

On 2 March 2016 at 10:41 PM, Atgxtg said:

One other thing I wonder about with the new "runic affinity" based divine magic rules is that getting spells from associated cults would seem to be less productive than before. For example, a Humakti, with a high Death affinity isn't going to be able to cast any divine healing magic at any reasonable reliability.  I wonder if this will impact some of the relationships between the cults. It seems far more useful to bring along an ally from an affiliated cult than to learn any of their divine magic.

Yep and definitely a feature, not a bug.

There's always Spirit Magic, or Spell Trading

Simon Hibbs

[nDervish]

18 hours ago, Texarkana said:

The way I got around my RQ6 players always spending their first six improvement checks on Combat Style, Endurance, Evade, Willpower and Magic Skills, was to start giving them 10+ improvement checks whenever a significant quest was concluded (typically around 4-6 game sessions, or once every 2-3 months real time).

Am I correct to assume that this is coupled with a house rule that you can only spend one XR on a skill at a time?  Otherwise, it seems that players who would normally say "I get three rolls, so one each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" would just say "I get twelve rolls, so four each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" for the same net effect, just chunkier.

Also, doesn't this dilute the effect of the Experience Modifier from CHA?  Getting 1 extra XR when 10 are awarded is much less significant than getting 1 extra when 3 are awarded.  (Not that I think this is necessarily a bad thing...  I've never particularly liked the Experience Modifier in the first place and may have houseruled it out entirely if I were using XR-based advancement instead of tick-based.)

[threedeesix]

33 minutes ago, nDervish said:

Am I correct to assume that this is coupled with a house rule that you can only spend one XR on a skill at a time?  Otherwise, it seems that players who would normally say "I get three rolls, so one each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" would just say "I get twelve rolls, so four each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" for the same net effect, just chunkier.

 

Maybe I've been doing it wrong all this time, but I'm pretty sure you can only increase a single skill once per experience award session. You can't increase the same skill multiple times. That's why the skill still increases by 1% on a failure.

Edit: Looking at some of the discussion over at the Design Mechanism forum, it seems you are correct and I have been doing it wrong.

Rod

Edited March 5, 2016 by threedeesix

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, simonh said:

Yep and definitely a feature, not a bug.

There's always Spirit Magic, or Spell Trading

Simon Hibbs

Possibly. I'm not sure it I like the fact that warrior types are going to suck at healing magic because of runic affinities. I'm hoping there might be something like Pendragon;s Directed Traits to provide a slight work around to keep the old allied cult functionality. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Possibly. I'm not sure it I like the fact that warrior types are going to suck at healing magic because of runic affinities. I'm hoping there might be something like Pendragon;s Directed Traits to provide a slight work around to keep the old allied cult functionality. 

Won't make any difference for spirit magic spells like Healing 1+. Heal Wound is a common spell and has every Runic variation (yes even Death cults have spells that allows one to shrug off mere corporeal damage).

[Texarkana]

5 hours ago, nDervish said:

Am I correct to assume that this is coupled with a house rule that you can only spend one XR on a skill at a time?  Otherwise, it seems that players who would normally say "I get three rolls, so one each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" would just say "I get twelve rolls, so four each to Combat Style, Endurance, and Evade" for the same net effect, just chunkier.

Also, doesn't this dilute the effect of the Experience Modifier from CHA?  Getting 1 extra XR when 10 are awarded is much less significant than getting 1 extra when 3 are awarded.  (Not that I think this is necessarily a bad thing...  I've never particularly liked the Experience Modifier in the first place and may have houseruled it out entirely if I were using XR-based advancement instead of tick-based.)

Yes, it dilutes the CHA XP modifier. We discussed that at the start of the campaign, but no one seemed to bothered by it.

We never thought you could spend more than one improvement roll on a skill at a time. Reading the rules again, I can see how that is a valid interpretation, but I'm surprised none of my players ever raised this.

The "fail and die" nature of a lot of RQ magic/wound checks means my players place a heavy emphasis on increasing Endurance, Evade, and Willpower at every opportunity. When I tried smaller lumps of XP on a more frequent basis they found the tradeoff decision difficult to make.

As a side note, my players have never had their combat styles benefit from the +1% improvement from fumbling. They have always used luck points to recheck the fumble (and NPCs don't score critical hits against the players in combat either for the same reason). They will risk a fumble on social skill checks, but never in combat.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Won't make any difference for spirit magic spells like Healing 1+. Heal Wound is a common spell and has every Runic variation (yes even Death cults have spells that allows one to shrug off mere corporeal damage).

It's not the spirit magic I'm concerned about, just the Divine/Rune Spells. Are there are variants of Heal Wound? Please explain. AFAIK the spells were pretty much the same from cult to cult. One cult might get something reusable or some such, but the spells were pretty much the same.

 

In the new RQ are the Rune Spells tailored to the specific cults and/or runes?  

[Mankcam]

I wouldn't usually expect too much healing abilities for war cultists beyond the First Aid skill and Basic/Common Magic healing spells. The Rune/Divine level versions of Healing magic should be with a Healing Goddess of some type, and this will encourage the community connection between different cults within the same pantheon. Or not. Some war cultists may go to a Healing temple and get limbs regrown etc, although others may refuse that level of healing and let death be their fate, perhaps even welcomed. In my mind if I was redoing the Rune Magic I would probably get rid of the concept of Common and Special Spells, and just describe a typical list of powers that runic trappings enable them to be portrayed very differently, and provide some examples of such. The more magnitude the higher the potency. Then anything beyond this could be explained as Inner Secrets / Heroic Abilities / Mythic Gifts associated with Heroquests.

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Mankcam

[Atgxtg]

16 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I wouldn't usually expect too much healing abilities for war cultists beyond the First Aid skill and Basic/Common Magic healing spells. The Rune/Divine level versions of Healing magic should be with a Healing Goddess of some type, and this will encourage the community connection between different cults within the same pantheon. Or not. Some war cultists may go to a Healing temple and get limbs regrown etc, although others may refuse that level of healing and let death be their fate, perhaps even welcomed. In my mind if I was redoing the Rune Magic I would probably get rid of the concept of Common and Special Spells, and just describe a typical list of powers that runic trappings enable them to be portrayed very differently, and provide some examples of such. The more magnitude the higher the potency. Then anything beyond this could be explained as Inner Secrets / Heroic Abilities / Mythic Gifts associated with Heroquests.

 

Yes but what I am referring to is how in RQ2 characters could go for associate status in an allied cult. That gave them access to the allied cults rune spells. With the new method, I suspect that some of that just isn't going to work anymore. Basically, I'm wondering how the new opposed rune system is going to impact the various cult relationships. 

 

Oh, and I hope Orlanth doesn't have the Chaos rune again!

[Mankcam]

Yes I now see what you are getting at with the Associated Cults, that's a tricky one so I guess we'll see how this rolls out

[TRose]

 To be honest I never liked how healing magic worked in any roll playing game but understand why it works the way it does. The hey a troll just cut off your arm, let me glue it back on presto good as new healing just seems wrong. But to stop an adventure after the first battle cause  the main fighter lost his arm to  lucky hit  would slow the game down big time. Perhaps some mechanism so if the player suffer a major wound  magic can fully heal it but have it take some time before its good as new.

[Zit]

I totally agree. I'd prefer healing spells to merely stop bleeding and accelerate the natural healing process.

[SDLeary]

3 hours ago, Zit said:

I totally agree. I'd prefer healing spells to merely stop bleeding and accelerate the natural healing process.

I like it this way too by default. I don't mind more powerful healing magic, but it does depend on the setting that I'm using. The  more heroic, the more I like healing to be instantaneous. Though to be fair I've always thought Heal Wound and Heal Body to be something of a copout. These I prefer at rituals, taking HitPoint damage in minutes or perhaps even hours. On the flip side though, I would say that these would be instantaneous during a HeroQuest.

SDLeary 

[simonh]

I don't really have a problem with instant heal spells, any more than with instant attack spells. Injuries in RQ are still very significant threats that can reduce a characters effectiveness or take them out if a combat at least temporarily. Unless there's some particular problem in the game that could be solved  by having healing to take longer I'm happy with it as it is.

Simon Hibbs

Edited March 7, 2016 by simonh
Fixed up

[Mankcam]

Regrowing limbs, curing disease, etc should be rare and not just spells that Priests know, perhaps these are miracles that occur due to devout faith, or as rewards for certain tasks etc.

Basic Healing Magic does have its place however. I liked how RQ6 did their Folk Magic Heal spell, it just healed minor wounds, and had no effect on more serious injuries. I hope something like this could be modeled to a degree with the new RQ. I wouldnt want to see initiates running around with Heal 8 for example

[TRose]

 While I think Runequest does need a regrow limb spell a players get them removed  very often,. I think attaching a lost limb should not be an instant heal.. Perhaps if you re attach a limb its only gets one hit point  back and is useless for the first day and then the next week there a minus on strength and skill checks until  it fully heals. 

[Al.]

A: Pulled blows

B: I beg your pardon?

A: Pulled blows

 

Let me expand

The rules that players need follow on from the game the GM runs and the rules (s)he uses

Although I'm not a big fan of Forge pronouncements (or counter-pronouncements) one statement from early on does resonate with me. System matters. Not just the meta choice of tome but which rules the NPCs are going to choose and use.

If the PCs expect to lose a limb regularly then they will need access to zap pow instant healing. Especially if loss of limb just makes the subsequent bits of the adventure less fun and more difficult. If however foes regularly pull their blows against unarmored and or starting adventurers in order to capture and ransom them then the need (or perceived need) for that magic is reduced.

I've (all of this IMMOO clearly) found it frustrating to hear fellow GMs grizzling that their players all optimise their character for combat, ignore social skills (character and player ), tool up for a battle when going to the shops and generally act like sociopaths. But then run games where combat deadliness is dialled up to 11 all the time, and is often unavoidable. Players will choose (and demand) the tools for their characters to succeed (or at least survive long enough to be interesting).

 

[Runeblogger]

On 5/3/2016 at 8:07 PM, Jeff said:

Won't make any difference for spirit magic spells like Healing 1+. Heal Wound is a common spell and has every Runic variation (yes even Death cults have spells that allows one to shrug off mere corporeal damage).

Oh, I liked better what you told us before about the opposite runes making it difficult for Death cultists to be strong in Fertility magic (like healing).

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Al. said:

Pulled blows

If the PCs expect to lose a limb regularly then they will need access to zap pow instant healing. Especially if loss of limb just makes the subsequent bits of the adventure less fun and more difficult. If however foes regularly pull their blows against unarmored and or starting adventurers in order to capture and ransom them then the need (or perceived need) for that magic is reduced.

This sounds very much like the theory that police aim for the legs when shooting folk in order to cause non-lethal damage. Evidence shows that they aim for the center of the body.

From my personal experience with fights, you only pull blows once your opponent is out cold. (And a sufficiently high subset of adrenaline hyped combatants will kick someone on the ground once or twice, too, needing to roll against that trait to stop. Which rune would that be? Disorder?)

The situation might be different in a warrior culture that counts coup.

[Jeff]

7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

Oh, I liked better what you told us before about the opposite runes making it difficult for Death cultists to be strong in Fertility magic (like healing).

Big healing magic - like Heal Body or Regrow Limb or Restore Characteristic (not to mention Resurrection) requires Fertility or Harmony magic. But Heal Wound is a Rune spell with countless names, known by countless cults, with countless different operating assumptions. Like all common spells, the rules effects are the same (albeit with different Runes used by different cults) so all these different spells are lumped together under the rubric of Heal Wound.

And Glorantha is darned dangerous - and RuneQuest is lethal. Even with healing magic, characters will die. Without healing magic, characters would drop like flies.