The Praxian Tradition

[David Scott]

Chris Klug over on G+ asked for a list of Praxian gods with their runes. This prompted me to update my work-in-progress structure of the Praxian Tradition that I'm using for the Prax book. Some of the societies are mentioned in HeroQuest Glorantha, and this PNG puts them into the structure I'm using.

Edited May 7, 2016 by David Scott
updated graphic

[Joerg]

Doesn't include Pavis - I wondered about the low number of Issaries worshippers since there are the Desert Trackers and the saying that peace talks come in black and white. So: are the Zebra folk mostly counted among the Pavis population?

[jajagappa]

It looks like you gave Aldrya the Beast rune instead of the Plant rune.

[David Scott]

@Joerg, The Zebra tribe is included and is basically Yelmalio and Eiritha. The Issaries counted are those amongst the tribes. The Zebra tribe is very small, 600 adults, with 1 or 2 Issaries cultists at most, YGWV. 

[g33k]

@Joerg -- up top, it explicitly excludes settlers (both Pavis and Lunar origin), though it DOES include the "Invader Deities" (including Seven Mothers) so I'm a bit confused...

Also, I'd like to see the green/red/uncolored given explicit key/label treatment somewhere.  And there just seems to be something "off" to my sensibilites having "The Great Three" and then Daka Fal listed below Storm Bull.  Maybe it's just how My Glorantha Varies (or new canonsince my grognard days), but I had always thought Daka Fal's influence (both Divine and within Glorantha) was on the same order as Waha/Eiritha/Urox...

But in general -- and despite my minor quibbles -- I really like this!  Very nice work!

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It looks like you gave Aldrya the Beast rune instead of the Plant rune.

Oops, yes Aldrya should only have the Plant rune. Ill fix it tomorrow. 

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

@Joerg -- up top, it explicitly excludes settlers (both Pavis and Lunar origin), though it DOES include the "Invader Deities" (including Seven Mothers) so I'm a bit confused...

Those are amongst the 5 major and 12 minor Praxian tribes only.  So doesn't include the hungry plateau sables in the Twinstars society or the Jakaleel lunar cultists for example.

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Also, I'd like to see the green/red/uncolored given explicit key/label treatment somewhere. 

It's my reference doc so doesn't need a key:-) however red is the Lunar Way, green are those with shaman paths. Uncoloured no shaman paths. The Paps societies should be green. 

1 minute ago, g33k said:

And there just seems to be something "off" to my sensibilites having "The Great Three" and then Daka Fal listed below Storm Bull.  Maybe it's just how My Glorantha Varies (or new canonsince my grognard days), but I had always thought Daka Fal's influence (both Divine and within Glorantha) was on the same order as Waha/Eiritha/Urox...

The titles come from Waha's Tasks, so the Great three are of course Waha, his father and his mother/wife. They are the basis of Praxian society.

The Old Friends or First friends are those he first met in the Wastes, they form the secondary basis of Praxian society. The truth is that Daka Fal is the largest cult in the wastes. But doesn't wield as much power as the Great Three - this from Cults of Prax. 

1 minute ago, g33k said:

But in general -- and despite my minor quibbles -- I really like this!  Very nice work!

Thanks

[Joerg]

While I do see a point for Kuschile and probably Hyalor worship among the Zebra tribe, all the baggage of the Yelmalio cult seems greatly misapplied for Zebra riders IMO. Cults of Prax had Pavis as the most numerous cult of the Zebra riders.

That 600 people tribe would be the Pavis Survivors among the Independent Tribes of Prax, correct? The Pavis Royal Guard is another pool of Zebra riders and their kin, even if native zebra riders make up only half of that Rubble-based military unit.

[Robin "RoM" Mitra]

Thanks David for this cool chart. Could you elaborate on the surprinsingly high number of Humakti. To my knowledge there is only one regiment (the Sword Brothers) in Prax. Among the Pol Joni I assume the same Humakti-Orlanthi ratio as in Sartar (which is quiet low in itself). Among the other major and minor tribes I expected only a handful Humakti wierdos. Your chart suggests 1,77% of the praxian population to be Humakti. My guess would have been less than 1/4 of that.

 

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

While I do see a point for Kuschile and probably Hyalor worship among the Zebra tribe, all the baggage of the Yelmalio cult seems greatly misapplied for Zebra riders IMO.

Pavis: GtA p11 in the Zebra Rider religion section:

Quote

The ruling families worship a variant of the Yelmalio (Light/Horse) cult (viewing him as a great horseman).

The Yelmalio cult amongst the tribes is very different from the Sun Dome temple setup. They have only Light Khans, and no priests or temples. It's very slimmed down.

Quote

Cults of Prax had Pavis as the most numerous cult of the Zebra riders.

That is still the case 25% of men and women. Pavis is not part of the Praxian tradition, but part of the Pavic tradition. 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

That 600 people tribe would be the Pavis Survivors among the Independent Tribes of Prax, correct? The Pavis Royal Guard is another pool of Zebra riders and their kin, even if native zebra riders make up only half of that Rubble-based military unit.

No, it's all of them. Using our standard clan make up rule of thumb - half are children. So it's 1200/2 = 600. Roughly 2 clans. The population numbers are unchanged from all previous sources. 

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, Robin "RoM" Mitra said:

Thanks David for this cool chart. Could you elaborate on the surprinsingly high number of Humakti. To my knowledge there is only one regiment (the Sword Brothers) in Prax. Among the Pol Joni I assume the same Humakti-Orlanthi ratio as in Sartar (which is quiet low in itself). Among the other major and minor tribes I expected only a handful Humakti wierdos. Your chart suggests 1,77% of the praxian population to be Humakti. My guess would have been less than 1/4 of that.

There are many Humakt initiates amongst the tribes, not organised into a single unit. Humakt is a useful cult in this harsh land of raiding and chaos. The actual number of initiates is 6480, using the 1% magic leader rule gives us 64/65 devotees. Most initiates will be members of spirit societies too. In the Wastes, there are few who are just humakti, most are mixed in. Some will form small brotherhoods within their own tribe, some will be intertribal. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by David Scott

[Martin]

Just a question on this...Are the Three feathered Rivals not part of the Praxian Tradtion either as a whole or each of them seperate?

[David Scott]

The Three feathered Rivals are each part of different societies in the Many Friends - they are rivals. Their overall myth tells their collective story. 

[Noita]

There's also a fair bit of info in the Notes from the Wastes thread.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Iskallor

[David Scott]

I've updated the graphic and included some more info. Hopefully it should make things a bit clearer.

[Noita]

Dogs in Prax are more camp animals than hunting partners? Hence Bother Dog under Helpwoman?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

Dogs in Prax are more camp animals than hunting partners? Hence Bother Dog under Helpwoman?

Yes. Brother Dog is not quite the same in Prax as in Balazar. Brother Dog is actually Waha's Brother, who was turned into a dog. From Greg's notes:

Quote

Waha’s brother betrayed him, for this he was turned into a useless dog. Always at Waha's heels trying to make amends.

He also told me that the Praxians don't use dogs for hunting and the Morokanth don't use Hyenas either (in case you were wondering).

Helpwoman has access to Brother Dog's spirit magic:

(beast) Brother Dog. Sometimes claimed to be the first of man's friends. Brother Dog has always been noted for his loyalty. This spirit provides charms that relate to dogs. The taboo of these charms is never harm a dog.

Brother Dog's rune is actually the Dog rune - a subset of the Beast Rune.

[davecake]

I never really thought of the Red School of Masks as having their own shaman path - rather, I thought of them as providing access to Praxian Lunar spirits to magicians from a range of other traditions, and shamans who were trained within the Red School were either Lunar shamans in the Jakaleel tradition, or Praxian Twin Stars etc shamans from the sable tribe. 

[David Scott]

Given the 10 or so years since the Lunars arrived at Moonbroth, there's been ample time for a shaman path to have been discovered. New Loonies, will have arrived into the fold and be guided into the most appropriate outlet for them. Some will become shaman, some sorcerers, some adherents of the new gods, some all three. The school is very much the epitome of Lunar magical practice and research. Drawing on the mixed magics and mythology of the Wastes, and then mixing in the lunar stuff, the school is syncretic in its approaches, anything is/was possible. Had the dragonrise not happened, I can fully imagine them tearing the fabric of time and turning Moonbroth into a chaos gateway, etc. The survivors from the school would be highly sought after by Argrath, being what I imagine Argraths Warlocks to be. 

[davecake]

That is very much how I see the school (who I have used in my games quite a lot over the years), other than I don't know why a syncretic Lunar school wouldn't just initiate new shamans into the Jakaleel cult or native Praxian traditions, and then just try to rush them to Illumination to master other magics. 

But then, its possible that this new Shaman path has much overlap with Jakaleel anyway, given they have the same runes. The only non-Lunar spirits Jakaleel works with seem to be spirits of the dead, I assume the Red School of Masks usually substitutes some native Praxian spirits for this knowledge, or perhaps even water/tidal/Blue Moon spirits contacted directly at Moonbroth. 

In my game they literally wear masks, and are usually somewhere lurking behind any elaborate Lunar magical plot anywhere in Prax. 

[David Scott]

On 31 May 2016 at 8:27 PM, davecake said:

given they have the same runes

Jalakeel has the Dying phase & Spirit Rune

The School of Red Masks has the Moon Rune.

Given that the Moon Rune has been in the Wastelands since before the Dawn, I think the Loonies have direct access to it, not the phases. This is what makes them special. When Hidden Ancestor society's Twinstars were revealed to be daughters of the Red Moon this caused the new society of the Twisters to be identified with a phase (Full Half) instead of the Moon Rune. At Moonbroth the Loonies have access to the Moon Rune and need illumination to access its full powers, but it's a different set of powers to that of the Goddess.

[davecake]

In the Pavis book, School of Red Masks has been given Dying phase and Spirit Rune as well, exactly the same as Jakaleel. If this is wrong, that is something important to note for errata etc.

The whole Lunar connection to Moonbroth seems to be connected with water powers, possibly Blue Moon, etc - I certainly agree that there are probably Lunar powers accessible at Moonbroth not easily accessible via normal Red Goddess methods. They are probably not directly part of any shamanic path, but associated spirits/spirit societies that any Lunar shaman at Moonbroth could potentially access (or the 'ragtag collection of magicians' description wouldn't really work). 

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, davecake said:

In the Pavis book, School of Red Masks has been given Dying phase and Spirit Rune as well, exactly the same as Jakaleel. If this is wrong, that is something important to note for errata etc.

We are both right! Page 53 has Moon. Page 409 has Dying phase and Spirit Rune.

The section on page 53 is about Praxian societies and Page 409 the Lunar society. This is fundamental to the society, Praxians can approach it from the Moon rune. Lunars on the other hand are tied to phases. The School is effectively a subcult of Jakaleel from the lunar perspective, hence the difference (I went back through the edits on Jakaleel that we did at the time).

Jakaleel is complex as a Seven Mothers subcult - members are treated as members of her Immortal cult. Any experimental subcults/societies are directly attached to the main cult. The same happens with the Sartarite equivalent that also uses the Seven Moons form. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by David Scott
clarification

[Noita]

On 2 May 2016 at 11:07 AM, David Scott said:

 

On 2 May 2016 at 1:16 AM, David Scott said:

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Iskallor

[pachristian]

I did not see the Horned Man, or Oakfed, on your list. As they are both "Greater Gods of Prax" since Nomad Gods, I would have expected them; Although the Horned Man might be under "Other Hidden Paths". And perhaps Oakfed is offered proprietary worship instead of direct worship. I did like the Horned Man write-up in Mongoose Publishing's Cults of Glorantha book. All in all, this is good work, and an important reference.