The Praxian Tradition

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Hyena is listed as a spirit cult of the Morokanth and some other tribes.

This is from Drastic Prax and it says on the credits page for Cult Distribution "based on material by Chaosium, Inc.". It's by the Drastic author and so not considered canon, although as usual YGMV.

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

They give the divine spell Hyena's Laugh (Group Laughter).

The source for this is Tales 15. The article is by Sandy Petersen, Stephen Martin, Scott Schneider and Greg Stafford and so I'm unsure of the author. Looking at the the original unpublished text sent from Chaosium to David Hall for Tales, it has a different piece of Rune Magic - Enthrall. So it was changed (likely by the Drastic author).

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Hyena's taught Morokanth the way of survivial in the Darkness and brought the Dark Eater to them.  So it would seem quite likely that the Morokanth and possibly others have a hyena spirit cult.

I don't know the reference for this, what is it please.

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Iskallor said:

But why and when would Waha have dealt with statues previously? Not the Faceless one surely? Jolanti?

The Waha cult writeup in HeroQuest Glorantha holds the key:

Quote

Waha did many things to save the world; these Tasks of Waha bound the Wastelands together. His Tasks wove a huge net between the peoples, spirits and parts of the Wastelands, catching all that was drifting apart. 

Using that as context, it's clear that Waha would have been to the Plateau of Statues in order to catch it in his net. This doesn't imply that he dealt with the statues, but clearly Jaldon knew otherwise. Clearly he didn't deal with the Faceless statue...

Edited February 15, 2017 by David Scott

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

In fact there is no reason for Waha to die upon Genert's demise, he will merely become a deity with a set of skills that are less relevant.

Elsewhere in Glorantha he becomes the god of Butchers.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Aren't the Eiritha Priestesses, Pavis, and Issaries all engaged in various resurrection projects?

No, but PCs might be. This a plot hook rather than an actual thing. Garzeen followers are compelled to return the hides and this is of course needed for the resurrection. Pavis is more concerned with running a small city than bringing back an Earth God, although Pavis PCs may get involved. Eirtha has another route - acknowledging a land goddess for the region, an as yet unnamed goddess. Samastina brings that knowledge to the Paps when she arrives with Jaldon and Argrath. This is another plot hook.

Edited February 15, 2017 by David Scott

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, the peace and prosperity that a resurrected Genert offers must seem attractive to many people.

I don't see this as a resurrection, more a remaking. Genert is going to be something different, created from Hyena skin, Copper sand, and the vomit from 10000 hyenas. Some bits are missing but other things can be substituted. What could go wrong here, remaking gods has always been a success for some in Glorantha.

Edited February 15, 2017 by David Scott

[kalidor]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Elsewhere in Glorantha he becomes the god of Butchers.

No, but PCs might be. This a plot hook rather than an actual thing. Garzeen followers are compelled to return the hides and this is of course needed for the resurrection. Pavis is more concerned with running a small city than bringing back an Earth God, although Pavis PCs may get involved. Eirtha has another route - acknowledging a land goddess for the region, an as yet unnamed goddess. Samastina brings that knowledge to the Paps when she arrives with Jaldon and Argrath. This is another plot hook.

Hara Orane?

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Hara Orane?

Personally I wouldn't use her. I'd suggest a HeroQuest back to the Green Age to identify her and a few more to establish her as the land goddess of the Wastelands. Then start her cult at the Paps and spread it. Won't take more than a 100 years for her to become established.

[kalidor]

56 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Personally I wouldn't use her. I'd suggest a HeroQuest back to the Green Age to identify her and a few more to establish her as the land goddess of the Wastelands. Then start her cult at the Paps and spread it. Won't take more than a 100 years for her to become established.

What runes do you think it would be more apropiated for her cult? earth and  harmony? i am not so sure she would be able to restore the fertility of the wastelands. Harmonize the powers of the land to make life easier like "Fertilize" spell of caladra and aurelion?. Heal the damage caused by chaos and generts fall is a bit radical i think. thoughts?

[David Scott]

I'd have a look at the other Land Goddesses and see how they work first. It's likely she's called Praxia Generta or something like that, she'll have her own type of grain, something yet unknown in the world - Quinoa or something like that. She will be a child when found and when mature likely produce a son or daughter with a PC who will be her avatar in the World. The land/Grain Goddesses runes are harmony and plant. As she matures she slowly restores the fertility of the Wastelands in her own form, displacing or incorporating whats already there. She needs to marry Storm Bull to tame the Raging Storm.

[Noita]

.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Iskallor

[Pentallion]

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't know the reference for this, what is it please.

Page 108 of Drastic Resolutions: Darkness.  This part is written solely by Sandy Peterson.  "When Dark Eater came to devour him, Hyena offered to aid him instead.  He said he would lead Dark Eater to a greater source of food than himself, and took him to the Morokanth Founder.  Hyena and Morokanth Founder had aided each other already and discovered that together they were stronger than apart.....Morokanth offered to lead (Dark Eater) to a greater source of food than his children...since that time the Morokanth have favored the Hyena's of the plaines."

As for Trickster, he appears in Book of Drastic Resolutions:  Prax in the Waha Heroquest The Freeing of the Protectoress  where it says "Trickster may appear in any shape, but the most common are Raven, Hyena, Human, Jackrabbit and Rattlesnake."

Which infers that Trickster is known in Prax so there must BE tricksters in their tribes.  Else, none of them can free the protectoress with any consistency.  And since it states even Morocanth can take this quest, even Morocanth have Tricksters.  There's even a new Trickster spell, Exchange Gifts.  Since Hyena is on their cult list, then hyena is their trickster.

Further information backing this up:  TORM 15 pg 43 by Scott Schneider and Greg Stafford: "the body that is growing in that cavern must be a strange amalgamation of Genert and Hyena, which, if allowed to come to life again, would be neither Genert (n)or Hyena, but something totally different.   This would be of great amusement to the Hyena Trickster spirit, and the ultimate joke on the continent of Glorantha."

So if you keep the whole Hyena rebuilding Genert mythos, then you're not really entitled to say "YGMV" and "it's not canon" when you're drawing from the exact same source I am.  It's a minor thing, but I think the only conclusion is yes, Trickster DOES exist in Prax.  He's taken the aspects of Raven, Hyena, rattlesnake and jackrabbit and even human (Eurmal).  Trickster, afterall, has the shape-shifting spells.

And finally, when you read How Jackrabbit Stole Waha's Tooth (BODR:P pg 32) you have a Trickster myth and like all good trickster myths, it's teaching someone something.  Both Hyena and Jackrabbit are tricksters working in tandem.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Pentallion

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't see this as a resurrection, more a remaking. Genert is going to be something different, created from Hyena skin, Copper sand, and the vomit from 10000 hyenas. Some bits are missing but other things can be substituted. What could go wrong here, remaking gods has always been a success for some in Glorantha.

Actually bringing back deities is far less problematic than making new ones.  Whose word do we have that it won't be Genert?  If you smelt the copper into bones and use transglutaminase to adhere the hyenas together into muscles and organs onto the skeleton, then you have the body.  Next up cobble a modified Lightbringer ritual together with five friends and a wyter and go get Genert's giant ass out of hock in hell, and suddenly you can even call yourselves the 7 Stooges and everyone will STILL worship you and your friendly new Empire of the Giants.  In case you are wondering what transglutaminase is... 

You're soaking in it.

Yeah, so anyhow you can probably milk that Imperial cash cow for at least a few centuries before it gets trashed by some Arkat wannabe.

 

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Page 108 of Drastic Resolutions: Darkness.

Thanks for the reference. Please note that the Drastic books are not part of canon and I'm directed not to use them. It may seem an odd decision considering some of the content, but a lot of the content was discarded by Greg (look at the sky section in the Prax book and compare it with the Guide). A lot of the articles were heavily edited and altered by the Drastic author who added his spin to the work. Likewise for the Praxian tales 14,15 and 16, although I have the original text for a lot of those articles.

[kalidor]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Thanks for the reference. Please note that the Drastic books are not part of canon and I'm directed not to use them. It may seem an odd decision considering some of the content, but a lot of the content was discarded by Greg (look at the sky section in the Prax book and compare it with the Guide). A lot of the articles were heavily edited and altered by the Drastic author who added his spin to the work. Likewise for the Praxian tales 14,15 and 16, although I have the original text for a lot of those articles.

Hi David. is the "copper knot" canon? are you going to include it in your text?. I think  it was the praxian version of the "EWF Battle Banner". Thanks

[David Scott]

As for tricksters in the Wastelands, there is no specific trickster god, just aspects of tricksters in other guises. These other guises are not solely tricksters. Likewise there are no Praxians who are tricksters like in Sartar. You may have trickster aspects from spirits in your spirit societies, but there is no room for a trickster "job" in the Wastelands. There's no bound system like there is for Eurmal followers. If a trickster appears, it's likely they will be killed as in Sartar. I'm not going to exclude the idea that a Praxian Wind Khan can acquire a bound Trickster, but that's the realm of PCs.

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Hi David. is the "copper knot" canon? are you going to include it in your text?. I think  it was the praxian version of the "EWF Battle Banner". Thanks

The Nomad Gods II board game is not part of canon either, for the same reasons as Drastic Prax. So I won't be including it.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

As for tricksters in the Wastelands, there is no specific trickster god, just aspects of tricksters in other guises. These other guises are not solely tricksters. Likewise there are no Praxians who are tricksters like in Sartar. You may have trickster aspects from spirits in your spirit societies, but there is no room for a trickster "job" in the Wastelands. There's no bound system like there is for Eurmal followers. If a trickster appears, it's likely they will be killed as in Sartar. I'm not going to exclude the idea that a Praxian Wind Khan can acquire a bound Trickster, but that's the realm of PCs.

Without desiring to utterly-flout canon, I nevertheless notice that "Trickster" is in many ways the ultimate flouter-of-authority-and-tradition, and "no room for a trickster" sounds to me like an nigh-irresistable challenge...    . . .   

<cobbles together a myth about how Trickster loaned his cloak to Hyena for hiding, and his boots to Jackrabbit, and taught Thieving to Raven during the Darkness, etc etc etc & how sometimes an entire Trickster just seems to "appear" in the Wastes to pull some Mythic Prank.>

... who, ME???  Nahhhhh!  I wasn't there, yerhonor, just ask Raven or Hyena or ...   

 

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

sounds to me like an nigh-irresistable challenge...

And this is what is at the core of playing RPGs for me. Just because the background doesn't cater for things like tricksters in the Wastes, I'd certainly let my players have a go and being one if they wanted.

[Noita]

I have two Praxian pcs in my game who are doing a great job at being Tricksters.

[davecake]

Of course there are Tricksters in the Wastes and Prax - Trickster is truly universal. We know of at least one unique Praxian Trickster spirit (from the Sartar Companion -Molobanumakur, a demonic imp of Prax), plus as mentioned several other spirits that appear to have Trickster aspects.The Praxians are not so special that they can escape Trickster - no one escapes Trickster. There are Tricksters in Prax, and even some among the Praxian tribes, just like every other society in Glorantha. 

BUT - David is totally correct that there are no 'bonded tricksters', and thats normal. It is the Orlanthi who are weird in having a role for bonded Tricksters. And there are probably very few proscribed roles, and when there are, they are probably even less fun that being exiled and attacked as normal for a Trickster. The Praxians have no positive roles for Tricksters in their society, and generally make them outcast. This is perfectly normal and reasonable of them. Tricksters in the wastes are like most Tricksters - they do not survive because anyone has any need for them, they survive by deception and schemes, and usually get attacked and abused when these means fail. 

There are probably a few Trickster shrines scattered around, at oases (as if the Praxians need another reason to distrust Oasis folk) and in various other places. The Praxians probably think they are clearly bad places and attack anyone they find suspiciously loitering there. The best a Praxian Trickster can probably manage is to hide themselves as a follower of one of the acceptable spirits that has Trickster aspects (Raven, most likely). Even then, they are likely to get beaten up for their misbehaviour unless they are very fast talkers indeed, and exile from the tribe is likely. There are Trickster stories, but they always end badly for the Trickster, and in the end Waha (or whoever) throws them out of the tribe or kills them. 

The only Proscribed role for Tricksters known among the Orlanthi that *might* be known in Prax a little, because its an Ernalda myth and so might be known to Eiritha, is that of scapegoat. While scapegoat is, in theory, better than being murdered, its only very marginally so. 

So Trickster is known to the Praxians, because he is known to everyone. He is known as that bad person you have to exile from the tribe, because they are broken and there is no good that can come from keeping them. 

 

[David Scott]

31 minutes ago, davecake said:

We know of at least one unique Praxian Trickster spirit (from the Sartar Companion -Molobanumakur, a demonic imp of Prax),

I'd missed this - thanks for pointing it out.

[David Scott]

41 minutes ago, davecake said:

Molobanumakur, a demonic imp of Prax

I've had a look for other references to this. It was part of the original Middle Sea Empire manuscript, but there's no further info. I'm going to treat this as an Agimori spirit due to how the name looks. 

[kalidor]

59 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I've had a look for other references to this. It was part of the original Middle Sea Empire manuscript, but there's no further info. I'm going to treat this as an Agimori spirit due to how the name looks. 

Is it posible for a goddess to have the illusion rune in prax and not be a trickster/imp? Like seseine but without the caotic/lust powers? The Canon says that many entities survived in the paps.

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Is it posible for a goddess to have the illusion rune in prax and not be a trickster/imp? Like seseine but without the caotic/lust powers? The Canon says that many entities survived in the paps.

Sure, I don't see why not. Naturally she would have a small cult. Maybe a daughter of Ernalda and Eurmal. Go wild, it's your game.

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

I've had a look for other references to this. It was part of the original Middle Sea Empire manuscript, but there's no further info. I'm going to treat this as an Agimori spirit due to how the name looks. 

I'd be tempted to also draw a link to Niti Fer a Waha, described in much the same way, just for a neighbouring area (As it's a demonic imp of Pent.)

The name alone raises some interesting possibilities.

[Noita]

I remember coming across a list of Trickster spirits/gods from around Glorantha, somewhere on the web or in a magazine a few years back. I can't remember the names but there was a Praxian one. Will have to go search.

In my game he's called Wimoweh and often appears as a cat, though once he appeared as a piece of talking dried dung in the Elder Wilds.