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RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?


Haimji

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35 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

In the theme of thread "2 weapons => 2-attacks-in-the-same-round" you need too skills main_weapon (right hand) + main_weapon (left hand) or in the Land of Ninja way : Main weapon + Two swords usage skill. The latter is simplier, more manageable and also more logic if you often use two weapons. Don't forget that in RQ and Basic, creating a new skill is possible, it's part of the system, the problem is to not create a broken or "duplicate skill that already exist".

The way I see it, Kenjutsu and Ni-tô-kenjutsu only reduce drastically the number of skills needed.

In RQ3, where attack and parry are different skills and you need to develop different skills for your right hand and left hand, kenjutsu is a substitute for Attack (1H Sword, right hand), Parry (1H Sword, right hand), Attack (2H Sword) and Parry (2H Sword) - and perhaps attack and parry for daggers...

And ni-tô kenjutsu is also a substitute for 4 or more skills.

11 minutes ago, Haimji said:

Combat special effects are the only simples rules on RQ6, animism, theism etc are awful. And Actions system is really hard to manage, i used it but i really prefer the RQ2/RQ3 one.

Ok. Given the theme of the thread, I was focusing on the combat rules of the games. I won't comment on magic, as I'm torn between the 2 rulesets, which I appreciate for different reasons.

I agree on Combat Actions, though.

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6 minutes ago, Mugen said:

 

MJ sadique, although I find your suggestions useful, appropriate and based on accurate historical research, I have some problems with the way you tend to present your interpretation of various rules as "how it was really meant to work". I am sure it is not intended, but sometimes your enthusiastic tone ends up leaving no room for disagreement, and this does not facilitate communication. In other words, the implicit In "My Opionion" and "At My Table" sounds (and I stress "sounds") as if it was missing.

In particular:

Quote

(it's the GM job to fill the blanks).

this statement is very dangerous, and historically it has led to Bad Gming Practices as often as it has promoted fun. I disagree.with this formulation: it is the group's job to adjust the rules to their comfort level of realism, not the GM's.

38 minutes ago, Haimji said:

Combat special effects are the only simples rules on RQ6, animism, theism etc are awful. And Actions system is really hard to manage, i used it but i really prefer the RQ2/RQ3 one.

Funny :) Most people say exactly the opposite :)

But I will tell you a secret... I mostly agree. Except on the "awful" part.

 

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2 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Was that an official rule? I remember playing that way in RQ3 but I didn't remember we borrowed it from RQ2.

Every printing I have of RQ2 lists it as a (strictly optional) rule - page 17 in the three I have to hand here. We liked it: on initial "contact" in a melee reach and weapon length (and RQ2 emphasized LENGTH in weapon SR a lot) matter but rapidly these factors were overwhelmed by the fundamental speed of the combatants as the dominant factor. It seemed a reasonable, PLAYABLE approximation.

Certainly, when I started steel weapon reenacting a decade or so later my experience in skirmishes reinforced that feeling: I could regularly thrash a swordsman with my bill hook NOT because it was longer but because I was faster with it. Mind, most of swordsman I fought weren't very good! I know a bunch of HEMA enthusiast now and they are all significantly better than any of the reenactment fighters I knew back in the early 1990's.

Nick

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54 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

1/ ...sometimes your enthusiastic tone ends up leaving no room for disagreement, and this does not facilitate communication. In other words, the implicit In "My Opinion" and "At My Table" sounds (and I stress "sounds") as if it was missing.

2/ I disagree.with this formulation: it is the group's job to adjust the rules to their comfort level of realism, not the GM's.

Enthusiastic... You understate me ! Over-Excited is more appropriate XD.  I usually love n' studied the rules but don't base my game on them ! First is to create a mental image of YourGloranthaMayVary and then make the system fit it. It's our reality principles and science's very fundation : The world is always true, the laws of the world are always here to describe and not to decide what happen. ex: Haimji choose a fight from hidden fortress, if your rule cannot simulate it, the rules are at fault not what he want to do with them !

What I present in the this thread is what you can do at the best  ! Rules are the weapons of the master, how you use them is how your play/are !

A game is made by the Master to describe and to manage everything and the players speaking about what's feel wrong and how things should be. But the GM is the one at work, he is the one who update/interpretate the world. Most systems have flaws but in 90% of times, the gamemaster is at fault because he refuse to change, to hear hsi players or stick to his rules ! (Communication Rune is lost XD)

Glorantha is a Fantastic World Open-mind Universe, if you want to stick to a mechanical rule your are missing one thing : Greg Stafford get the first version of D&D by fax ! and he said "I can do better than this !". Then he and his friends created RUNEQUEST. (to me, it mean) Stick to the rule, just play D&D !

Return to the thread : I give an advice about Viking's book because it's a common theme when a viking jump off a roof (3 meters height) with two axes and simultaneous strike a monster. What will RuneQuest Rules treat this attack if a player want to to this ? (Viking's axe SR = 4) Everyone will say first attack SR4, second attack SR4+3 = 7... but the second attack will be 3,6 seconds latter.
My cunning player will said : "How can my second strike be much latter, almost the time for an object to fall from 50 meters height ! I didn't know i was bron in tchernobyl !"
Another (Mr fumble, Captain of the obvious) will add : "If the monster in an archer that strike at SR6, I will be killed because is arrow will flew between my too simultaneous attacks"

...Two attack in the same rounds : a nightmare for some master or a salvation. depend how you react to it ?
 

 

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2 hours ago, NickMiddleton said:

Every printing I have of RQ2 lists it as a (strictly optional) rule - page 17 in the three I have to hand here. We liked it: on initial "contact" in a melee reach and weapon length (and RQ2 emphasized LENGTH in weapon SR a lot) matter but rapidly these factors were overwhelmed by the fundamental speed of the combatants as the dominant factor. It seemed a reasonable, PLAYABLE approximation.

i can't find the rules page 17 in RQ2 :(

in RQ3, there is a rule about that but its only when the attack can be close contact to the defender.

 

27 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Return to the thread : I give an advice about Viking's book because it's a common theme when a viking jump off a roof (3 meters height) with two axes and simultaneous strike a monster. What will RuneQuest Rules treat this attack if a player want to to this ? (Viking's axe SR = 4) Everyone will say first attack SR4, second attack SR4+3 = 7... but the second attack will be 3,6 seconds latter.

 

My cunning player will said : "How can my second strike be much latter, almost the time for an object to fall from 50 meters height ! I didn't know i was bron in tchernobyl !"
Another (Mr fumble, Captain of the obvious) will add : "If the monster in an archer that strike at SR6, I will be killed because is arrow will flew between my too simultaneous attacks"

...Two attack in the same rounds : a nightmare for some master or a salvation. depend how you react to it ?

i'm wondering if i can manage "2 weapons 2 attacks in this way :

each attack at SR like if there is only 1 weapon, means spear SR6 strike SR6 and sword SR7 strike SR7 not SR9 or 11. what do you think guys?

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4 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

What I present in the this thread is what you can do at the best  ! Rules are the weapons of the master, how you use them is how your play/are !

Rules are the weapons of the group, not the GM.

Quote

Return to the thread : I give an advice about Viking's book because it's a common theme when a viking jump off a roof (3 meters height) with two axes and simultaneous strike a monster. What will RuneQuest Rules treat this attack if a player want to to this ? (Viking's axe SR = 4) Everyone will say first attack SR4, second attack SR4+3 = 7... but the second attack will be 3,6 seconds latter.
My cunning player will said : "How can my second strike be much latter, almost the time for an object to fall from 50 meters height ! I didn't know i was bron in tchernobyl !"
Another (Mr fumble, Captain of the obvious) will add : "If the monster in an archer that strike at SR6, I will be killed because is arrow will flew between my too simultaneous attacks"

This is the typical case where the GM must make a ruling "on the fly". Not frequent enough to deserve a rule in the book, yet it may happen. And this is one of those cases when the GM has a hard time, because the players want to do "kewl stuff" and sometimes they do not realize they are describing impossible actions.

However, I think you are presenting the action from a misleading angle: the Viking is not necessarily making two simultaneous attacks with two axes. It is incredibly difficult to coordinate one's arms so that both weapons cleave at the same time. How is the jump doing things easier? It should make them more difficult. The viking's brave attack implies an extra risk, rather than an advantage.

This means the two attacks are not simultaneous. The GM, in my opinion, should not accept the Statement of Intents "I make two simultaneous attacks" and rule that it is two swings in a quick sequence (with at least the first with some bonus from the jump, perhaps). Thus, even if the gap between the two is a split second, the gap exists, and the opponent, if still able to function after the first blow, should have the opportunity to react before the second slash.

The question now is: how do we know whether the monster can actually place a counterattack between the two blows? That is what Strike Ranks are for, taking into account speed, size and weapon length. The rules say that 3 SR pass between the two, but this does NOT mean, in any way, 3.6 seconds. It means "three levels of readiness". If the Viking is so quick that he still has the initiative at StrikeRank 7 (which does NOT mean "when 8.3 seconds have passed", but at the reaction level of Average Joe with a sword, who is SR7 in RQ3). In this sense, the jump might still be a viable tactics, if the GM rules that the targer did not expect the "death from above" attack and suffers the standard +3 to Strike Rank for being surprised, letting also the second strike arrive within the SR window in which the target cannot react yet. Which makes sense, as you do not usually expect Olaf the Berserker jumping at you from a roof during combat, so surprise might well apply.

As you see, there are always several ways of applying the rules to a situation. And the RQ rules behave decently in at least 80% of combat situations.

 

3 hours ago, Haimji said:

 

@Trif, this quoting software sucks. How do I delete a quote box?

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8 minutes ago, Haimji said:

each attack at SR like if there is only 1 weapon, means spear SR6 strike SR6 and sword SR7 strike SR7 not SR9 or 11. what do you think guys?

That usually the rules are there for one reason :), so better apply them rather than going for houserules "just because".

See my comment above: the 3 SR do not imply 3,6 seconds between blows, just that the difficulty of coordinating the second blow leaves a gap between the two in which the opponent has a chance. The 3 SR gap represent the need to give him a fair chance.

When you attack with two weapons, you are taking an extra risk (no parry) for the advantage of having a double attack, the second of which your opponent will not be able to parry. If you make the attacks of the double wielder simultaneous, two cases may happen:

a. the double wielder hits with his attacks after the single-wielder; in this case, how many strike ranks pass is irrelevant: X attacks, Y does not parry, if Y survives he places two attacks in sequence and X can parry only one of them

b. the double wielder hits with his attacks before the single-wielder; in this case, if the gap is not there this means that the risk of the action is transferred to the combatant who made a cautious statement of intents (attack and parry) while the all-out attacker manages to land his second blow, the one the opponent cannot parry, before the enemy can land his own attack- this is horribly unfair, as the combatant who was more cautious is suffering the most risk! There is no real justification for this "risk transfer": double attacks should be risky manouvres, not cunning ways to slaughter people who happen to strike just one SR later than you.

Think of another, frequent case. You are facing a broo, who gets a free head butt 3 SR after the normal attack. You cannot parry this attack if you have attacked and parried his normal actions. With the SR gap, at least you get the chance of taking the broo down with your attack, before receiving the butt. Without it, the deadliness of the broo would reach unthinkable level.

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25 minutes ago, Haimji said:

i can't find the rules page 17 in RQ2 :(

My bad - page 16.

It's the section "the Main Criteria" in the Strike Rank section:

2. DEX - The most obvious of the criteria. One must be quick to hit first.

    For subsequent rounds of melee against the same foe, DEX can be used as the sole criteria. This is strictly optional.

Cheers,

Nick

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27 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

That usually the rules are there for one reason :), so better apply them rather than going for houserules "just because".

See my comment above: the 3 SR do not imply 3,6 seconds between blows, just that the difficulty of coordinating the second blow leaves a gap between the two in which the opponent has a chance. The 3 SR gap represent the need to give him a fair chance.

Yes, i m ok with you, i really prefer official rules, but i need to understand them before to use them.

Thank you for your explanation, pretty clear and clever.

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And I would add, be very carfull with amazing videos of dudes doing incredible things with weapons. It does not always represent the real life, but are from guys who trained a lot for this particular tricks mostly unapplicable in a real fight.

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2 hours ago, NickMiddleton said:

My bad - page 16.

It's the section "the Main Criteria" in the Strike Rank section:

Found ! thank you !

 

1 hour ago, Zit said:

And I would add, be very carfull with amazing videos of dudes doing incredible things with weapons. It does not always represent the real life, but are from guys who trained a lot for this particular tricks mostly unapplicable in a real fight.

yes, that's true. Don't mix martial sport with real fight. In a sport you want to win with getting points, in a real fight, you want to stay alive et kill the guy.

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2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

That usually the rules are there for one reason :), so better apply them rather than going for houserules "just because".

See my comment above: the 3 SR do not imply 3,6 seconds between blows, just that the difficulty of coordinating the second blow leaves a gap between the two in which the opponent has a chance. The 3 SR gap represent the need to give him a fair chance.

....

To add one final note: when adjudicating a case that is not in the rules, never think of SR as units of time

I always love your answer RosenMcStern, because you stick to the rules all the time and just throw the baby with his water when you don't like it ! In most of case, I don't care about the time lenght of a round but the SR are units of time. And they are a core element for SR because they determine your speed and a lot more...

In case of Olaf the Berserker (thank you for naming him) it take 1SR to jump down from a roof to the ground so in the rule he strike at SR weapon + Sr mouvement = SR 5 the 8. Haimji answer was a good one, simplier and better than RosenMcStern long and complex one. ( Ockham razor :  lex parsimoniae :  the simplier is the better ! ). I've been playing with samurai in RQ3 during 20 years and in hundreds of sessions and the very best answer I can give as GM is : Olaf is making a complex mouvement so the simultaneous actions take 3 SR MORE : The two strikes will happen in the same time at SR5 + 3 = Double strike at SR8 ! the player will roll two separate attacks.

(This is for Rosen) : But as a master I warn you Olaf, if the enemy use one action to dodge, he will roll two test, one for each attack. In case of success, your enemy will be able to attack you, having using your two actions to attack, you'll be at his mercy !

PS : Speaking about risk transfert is not in the rule, your personnal view of the thing, out of this system, and please don't add some fairness or equity in a battle or a system that strictly doesn't need it. Not everyone are old' rules tricksters...

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

However, you can confirm that the "hold several arrows in hand" trick was actually used historically, do you? Not ten, but more than one.

"Used historically" : LOL, even historians aren't all agree about this ! but i can do more : aboriginal archer don't have quiver ! how do they can carry around their bow and their arrows ? Do like me, just look at some reportage about amazonians hunting with a bow and you'll see people with doing it ! And more : you just have to possess a third hand to do the trick, how ? by having a servant like all ancient greeks had done ! It's very usefull a servant (and it's in the rules, you can have servants if you're a noble) some have even 2 hands...

Better close the case because it's not this thread purpose

17 minutes ago, Haimji said:

Yes, that's true. Don't mix martial sport with real fight. In a sport you want to win with getting points, in a real fight, you want to stay alive et kill the guy.

I AGREE but aren't you playing at RUNEQUEST : an FANTASTIC AND MAGICAL UNIVERSE where vegetals elves shoot arrow perfectly at 300 meters, where a berserker warrior fight ten bears head-on and still win without big injuries ? Where trolls eats rocks and sometimes used twin axes in a magical lead ? Impossible is not part of the Glorantha ! but you can play elsewhere...
 

 

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37 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

I AGREE but aren't you playing at RUNEQUEST : an FANTASTIC AND MAGICAL UNIVERSE where vegetals elves shoot arrow perfectly at 300 meters, where a berserker warrior fight ten bears head-on and still win without big injuries ? Where trolls eats rocks and sometimes used twin axes in a magical lead ? Impossible is not part of the Glorantha ! but you can play elsewhere...

True. You can add horses are actually birds without wings :) When you play in Glorantha, forget science and learn mythology. In place of history, perhaps we can go to greek myths.

But let's return to the main discussion : SR in RQ2/RQ3.

On my opinion, its not very important to know if SR = 1 sec or 0.5 sec. Rules didn't say SR = 1 sec but RQ2, 1 rnd = 12 sec, and 12 SR, RQ3, 1 rnd = 1 sec and 10 SR, soo its easy to make SR=1 sec. Actually, SR are usfull to know who strike first and who strike second, i guess we all agree about that.

Thanks to you guys, i understand pretty much better the rules. Its not about "who is right", but "my players and i, as GM, can we have a simple rule to manage a fight". All players are differents and don't want to same.

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12 hours ago, Mugen said:

It seems I've always misunderstood this skill. I always thought it was a skill for attacking and parrying with an off-hand wakizashi, and that your main hand was still using the kenjutsu skill.

But after re-reading the skill, I think you're right.

If you look carefully at RQ2/3 products, there are several skills like this scattered throughout. Horse Archery (Kushkile<sp>) is another one. These combined skills simply replace individual skills.

SDLeary

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Actually, as Rosen alluded IIRC  RQ2 *explicitly* states that 12SR and 12 second round is basically coincidental (although, imo, if they didn't want there to be an implied connection, it was a poor design choice to make them the same value), and should not be assumed to mean that when 1 SR passes, 1 second has passed.

SR are merely a way to resolve/order events in a segment of time that would otherwise be nearly simultaneous in reality.

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7 hours ago, NickMiddleton said:

Every printing I have of RQ2 lists it as a (strictly optional) rule - page 17 in the three I have to hand here. We liked it: on initial "contact" in a melee reach and weapon length (and RQ2 emphasized LENGTH in weapon SR a lot) matter but rapidly these factors were overwhelmed by the fundamental speed of the combatants as the dominant factor. It seemed a reasonable, PLAYABLE approximation.

I'm checking the PDF for Classic right now and not seeing it. I'll have to check my original when I get home. 

SDLeary

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28 minutes ago, Haimji said:

On my opinion, its not very important to know if SR = 1 sec or 0.5 sec. Rules didn't say SR = 1 sec but RQ2, 1 rnd = 12 sec, and 12 SR, RQ3, 1 rnd = 1 sec and 10 SR, soo its easy to make SR=1 sec. Actually, SR are usfull to know who strike first and who strike second, i guess we all agree about that.

In fact:

LIMIT TO STRIKE RANK PER MELEE TURN

No action or combination of actions may be performed in one melee round if the total strike rank necessary adds up to more than 12. This is purposely correlated to the 12 seconds of a melee round, but a slavish “each second equals one strike rank point” policy should be avoided. 

From RQ 2/Classic. In RQ3 the disassociation was one of the benefits (only benefit?) of moving to 10 SR.

SDLeary

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I think most RQ3 players glossed over reading that.  I know I did.  That totally changes the entire conversation.  Now that duck with two shortswords attacks and parries the first round, then he can use his two attacks from then on.  Totally changes everything and makes both systems work just fine.

 

I like it :)

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1 hour ago, Haimji said:

RQ3, 1 rnd = 1 sec and 10 SR, soo its easy to make SR=1 sec. Actually, SR are usfull to know who strike first and who strike second, i guess we all agree about that.

Nooooooo,

Sorry but there is an typing error : One minute = 5 rounds. One Round = 12 sec. One round is divided in 10 SR. (1SR = 1,2 sec is my usage only... you rarely need it). Why SR is very important : because Runequest use Movement pts (Mvmt) (and old gamers was using figurine for simulation). maths part : 12 sec a round is very important for simplier conversion because 1 movement point is 1 meter per SR and also 1 mvmt is 3 km/h (simplicity is here because just need to multiply by 3, which is impossible with 10sec round).

In RuneQuest distance (spell and others) are given in meter, times are in minutes (spells).

MOVEMENT : You have lots of creatures in RuneQuest : Dwarf, duck with 2 Mvmt, human, troll with 3 Mvmt and Elves with 4Mvmt and Horse, centaure with 10mvmt. In melee, you move according to your movement (cost : 1Fatigue point) and the double of it if you sprint (cost : 2FP) . So Dwarf and duck do 20-40 meters per full round of melee, human/troll 30-60, elves 40-80m and centaur 100-200m.

-Your Strike rank is augmented by the distance you have to travel to get the target. Target at 10 meters : a Shortpack the dwarf at a melee speed will have to add 5 SR, if is SR at axe when charging is more that 5 then he can't strike this round and will strike at usual SR next round. But  Olaf the Berserker as a human will have to move 4SR (12m) and with his axe SR of 4, he will strike this round at 8 !

-Shortpack the dwarf at a sprint speed will do 40 meters a round at a cost of 2FP but Trunk, the Vronkal will go at melee speed, lose only one FP an still do the same 40 meters.

If you do some fight in the arena of Monster Coliseum (Le Maître des Runes) you absolutely have to master these ! bein short is dangerous ! and if you do 2 attack per round again two distant target, you HAVE to add SR+3 for the second attack and also the  SR need to attain him or you end your round not doing a second strike !!! XD

Strike Rank and special tactics : The tricks of SR are also vast, A fight is composed in multiple ranges of battle (headache assured !):
-Start of the fight / from distance to Melee (engagement) : The longer weapon strike FIRST, don't take in account SR, SIZ/DEX only the weapon length.
-In a charge movement / In the Melee : The strike Rank is based your DEX and the Weapon SR modifier (ignore your SR modifier of SIZ)
-In the Middle of Fight / In the Melee : The strike Rank is based of your SIZ, your DEX and the Weapon SR modifiers.
-In the Middle of Fight  / In Close combat : The strike Rank is based of your SIZ, your DEX but the Weapon SR are modified (inversion without number clearly given)

So you SIZ and weapon length doesn't much matter after the first contact. Usual SR if for melee strike, contact or charge modify it greatly !!! being a lot realist is time-consuming but pay greatly in an arena dog fight ! (do it once, it's fun and crazy !)

Edited by MJ Sadique
made 4+4=9... sorry !
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