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RQ2/RQ3 : 2 weapons & 2 attacks in the same round?


Haimji

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19 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Strike Rank and special tactics : The tricks of SR are also vast, A fight is composed in multiple ranges of battle (headache assured !):

 

-Start of the fight / from distance to Melee (engagement) : The longer weapon strike FIRST, don't take in account SR, SIZ/DEX only the weapon length.
-In a charge movement / In the Melee : The strike Rank is based your DEX and the Weapon SR modifier (ignore your SR modifier of SIZ)
-In the Middle of Fight / In the Melee : The strike Rank is based of your SIZ, your DEX and the Weapon SR modifiers.
-In the Middle of Fight  / In Close combat : The strike Rank is based of your SIZ, your DEX but the Weapon SR are modified (inversion without number clearly given)

i put one in orange, because i thought it was only with grande lance or pick. Can you confirm? The one in green, i founded them in rules, you are right.

And, yes error typing, i wanted to write "10", so i checked in rules, RQ3 french edit, in one page they said "1 round = 12 sec" and another page they said "1 round = 10 sec", writing/translate error?

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17 minutes ago, Haimji said:

i put one in orange, because i thought it was only with grande lance or pick. Can you confirm? The one in green, i founded them in rules, you are right.

Yes. It happens for charges with overlong weapons or against overlong weapons. Basically, in this case you do not count SR but when the rider reaches the target, the longer weapon strikes first, then the other.

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And, yes error typing, i wanted to write "10", so i checked in rules, RQ3 french edit, in one page they said "1 round = 12 sec" and another page they said "1 round = 10 sec", writing/translate error?

Yes, translation error. 1 minute = 5 MR, so 1 MR = 12 seconds.

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1 hour ago, Haimji said:

-Start of the fight / from distance to Melee (engagement) : The longer weapon strike FIRST, don't take in account SR, SIZ/DEX only the weapon length.

I put one in orange, because i thought it was only with grande lance or pick. Can you confirm? The one in green, i founded them in rules, you are right.

Example is given with them but not only, I never give the full details to not copy-paste the full book :

In Mounted fights, we only speak about these 2 weapons but it apply to every SR 0 types weapons using in thrusting. In the book, rules said you cannot use hacking/slashing weapon but using a 2 meters length halberd as a spear in thrusting is the same and in this case the longer strike first !

In unmounted fights : the same principle is here as long as you use thrusting movement. Macedonian/darra happan's spearman with their 5 meters long spears will get you first !

You will need this rules because players often use a charge movement for striking first at the start of the fight (a duck/halfling with a 3 SIZ.SRm will strike at SR4 instead of SR7 !!!) and the basic rule / reality of my spear is longer than your tiny sword so I strike first will temper them a lot !

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24 minutes ago, Haimji said:

Ho ok, can you give me pages,please? in french édition :)

i really need to find the english edition, french one seems to have translate errors...

errors of translations XD, nope 1D6 by page : the very best one of all p64 the weapon named "arc à pierre" (bow stone ...) it take me times to understand this one XD

In french : at the beginning of Combat p46 for SR types and the rest is in p52 but you need to carefully read : "Si une arme est utilisée comme une grande lance...".

With 2 weapons, there's a lot of tactics you can do : Danold the Legendary Duck with sword SR7, shield SR8 and axe SR7 and (SIZ_SRm = 3, DEX_SRm = 2, sword SRm 2)

Round 1 : A charge movement with shield head-on first follow by a powerful slash with sword: Shield attack at SR5 + Sword attack at SR8
Round 2 :  Continue with a slash with his sword, and use his shield to attack to : sword attack at SR7 + Shield attack at SR 10
Round 3 :  Continue with a slash with his sword, shield is boring so throw it at the enemy : sword attack at SR7 + Shield Ranged_attack at SR 9 (+DEX SRm)
-First enemy out, next enemy at charge movement GM is cool no extra SR is need (every GM is cool with Danold)
Round 4 :  Equip second sword, do A charge movement with Sword follow by the second : 2nd sword equipped at SR3, sword Charge at 7, second sword attack at SR10
...

if he choose to have an axe instead of shield or sword, he can throw them

Round X : A charge movement with Axe first follow by a powerful slash with Axe and a ranged attack : Axe1 attack at SR4 + Axe2 attack at SR7 + Axe1 ranged_attack at 10...

A lot of combination and wisefull usage of charge... unless enemy have a spear XD

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For years we've used an initiative system that had two values: reach and quickness.

Reach was used on the first encounter between two combatants in melee, quickness thereafter.

We don't mind systems that were relatively complex in calculation, as long as those calculations were OFFLINE, out of game time, and resulted in quickly, easily-applied numbers when combat rolled around.

Reach was Siz/10, dropping fractions.and quickness was Dex/6, drop fractions.  Weapons had their own reach and quickness values, usually the sum of both was 5.  So a 2h war maul was reach 4, quick 1, while a dagger was reach 1, quick 4.  (There were some exceptions, like a lance was 5/0, while a pike was 6/0.)  In all cases, higher was better.

The short version was that reach would get you what could be (particularly in RQ) the critical first strike, but if you could safely survive that first clash, having a close-in weapon was advantageous.  Generally we considered 'drawing a weapon' to take 5sr-quickness value, so a dagger could be pulled out with a SR penalty of only 1, so we did have players who did the 'javelin while charging then whip out a shortsword for the close-in work, which seemed realistic.

 

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10 hours ago, styopa said:

For years we've used an initiative system that had two values: reach and quickness.

Reach was used on the first encounter between two combatants in melee, quickness thereafter.

We don't mind systems that were relatively complex in calculation, as long as those calculations were OFFLINE, out of game time, and resulted in quickly, easily-applied numbers when combat rolled around.

The concept is fine but Weapon/SIZ SR Modifier is the concept of Reach and DEX SR modifier is the concept of quickness ! I know most people think SR.modifier is a nightmarish concept but it's RUNEQUEST copyrighted systems. SRm is difficult to handle but it explain and resolve more problems than most peoples thinks, It also permit you to create new weapons or improvised weapon base on its length :
-Classic case : Your two hands n' 2,0 meter length spear get cut in half leaving a 0,98 meter lenght spear, the SR of the weapon go from 1 to 2 so +1SR.
-Non-Classic case : GM said you all fight in a short-wide alley so the rule said (in short) every long weapon get a -30%. A cunning player (me) will answer "as malkioni knight I want to use the shorten sword technique, an historical method to grab the part of the blade after the hilt to shorten the length and be able to fight in close combat". GM answer quickly without needed house rule : "You weapon get +1SR and no malus but you have to use it two hand so no shield on the left arm".

-Vicious, Eurmal Inspiration, case (I prepared it as secret technique but still keep in my sleeve for another day) : a Rokari soldier challenge in first-blood duel a Loskalmi male knight of Xemela. The Rokari with a long sword is at SR 4 (1+2+1), the healer ask an orlanthi friend to borrow his sword and his solid looking sheath... make some movement, estimated SR7 (2+3+2) then he get the sword back to sheath and do some trick with the strap...

  • The fight is prepared at middle distance (no distance to Melee (engagement) but A charge movement (SIZ SR = 0) is ok for the fastest one).
  • The Rokari player said "I strike at SR 4 so first even if you charge at me", then the loskalmi one respond "I do a charge movement and strike at SR 2"...HOW ?
  • First is charge : the quickness is given to loskalmi because he has a SRm of 1 (you can't hide how tall you are, nor your weapon reach but you can hide your quickness)
  • Second is the secret technique trick : GM explanation "When the healer strike at you, sword in hand with sheath on, he made a looking sweeping strike... you see the sheath sliding along the blade and stop without getting off (the sheath is stopped by the strap attached to the hilt and the sheath) so during this brief strike his weapon length sword out of the sheath 0,80 (,10 in) + solid sheath 0,9m equal a 1,70 meter length weapon SR go from 2 to 1 . In the end his SR is 2 (0+1+1), almost unbeatable.

With the thread theme "2-weapons-2-attacks-in-the-same-round" this technique need no extra rules, no house rules just a lot of an open-mind GM. If the first strike is at 2 then you clearly understand he can do a second attack easily (taking dagger + second strike) or (kick second strike + ranged attack (throwing a weapon) and even (shield attack + 2SR movement + round orlanthi shield throwing) ...

PS add-on : if you want a quick fight, the simpliest house rule : Replace all +3 SR by + DEX SR modifier (Quickness). high DEX will be lethal and spells to rise dex too...



 

Edited by MJ Sadique
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4 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

The concept is fine but Weapon/SIZ SR Modifier is the concept of Reach and DEX SR modifier is the concept of quickness
 

Except, as I've pointed out before, RQ RAW are fundamentally flawed in counting the wrong direction.

RQ RAW is a "lower is better" system, where having a DEX SR of 0 is better than a DEX SR is 3.  This is the sort of antiquated, counter-intuitive thing that was quite common in 1st generation RPGs but was (happily, in my view) largely cleared away by D&D 3e; they really broomed their whole system consistently into a "higher is better" paradigm.

The problem with "lower is better" for SRs is that it functionally caps abilities that should be open-ended.  IIRC, SIZ caps at 22 (SR 0), and Dex caps at 19 (SR 0), meaning that mechanically it doesn't matter if you're Siz 22, Siz 66, or Siz 200 - they all have the "same" reach?  Also with Dex - there's no difference between 19, 59, or 109.  I find that doesn't make much sense.

Further, while I agree in principle with your "replace the +3 flat value with DEX SR" as fundamentally more interesting and character-varied, you can obviously see how DEX SR of 0 in that math makes a high-dex character *insanely* fast.

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Agree for the flawed because simples rules are hard to handle, and there are flaws but less than a lot of others sytems... In RuneQuest is for me like St Thomas said : "the perfect is the enemy of the good". If you ask to much you'll get a ROLEMASTER systems.

BIG MISTAKE Styopa !! DEX SRm go from 1 to 4... no ZERO : you cannot have infinite speed so no 0 SR, you always need time to do something.

There is 2 principles in initiative who are fundamentally different :
-Systems like Runequest or THOAN which use linear time and qualitative speed (the greater DEX, the faster but no mesure).
-System like Warhammer and D20 which use qualitative time and qualitative speed (The greater the faster but no estimation)

For me Runequest is greater because you exactly know what happen and when. In D20, having a greater init is just giving a good feeling for the player and give more thrills.

I could say that D20 system is the lower mechanics, the faster play, the better feeling (I really like play Fantasy Craft...in Iron kingdoms). Runequest is not counter-intuitive, it's a precise mechanic, the only non-intuitive is the SR modifier tables (love the logic, hate to have to look for it every time) but some thing making a qualitative speed into a precise and quantitative time is a complex an revolutionary idea (a bit like the number ZERO...)

Another great problem with initiative base systems. Have you ever try playing in the arena of monster coliseum : Try it
-With Runequest, the time go by each SR (1,2 sec) : every body move at the same time, when you move to someone, he can't teleport away !
-With D20 INIT, there is no time : The faster PC do it first action, instantaneously move at his full movement and no one can intercept him... he is teleporting !!!!

When you strictly follow the INIT's systems rules you get anti-intuitive actions, the faster attain his target (cannot even move a millimeter, it's not his turn) do his multiples strikes actions at all PC in range an then he's personal time stop and this the turn on another half-god-manipulating time... it's not a flaw, it's chaotic !!!

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Title said rq2rq3-2-weapons-2-attacks-in-the-same-round : and so in the RuneQuest Third Edition Rules, Deluxe Edition by The Avalon Hill Game Compagny or in the Runequest (3) French editions by Oriflam

Strike Ranks, page (check yourself or roll a D100), book (don't bother me to tell you it's in combat) or go to player's notes :

(in upload down there)

And you are right, it's MY mistake first to not be precise : RQ2 is RAW is lower but it's a the little baby... RQ3 is a adult size !

 

Strike ranks modifiers.png

Edited by MJ Sadique
copu-paste image don't work -_-;;
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On 23/09/2016 at 5:14 PM, styopa said:

The problem with "lower is better" for SRs is that it functionally caps abilities that should be open-ended.  IIRC, SIZ caps at 22 (SR 0), and Dex caps at 19 (SR 0), meaning that mechanically it doesn't matter if you're Siz 22, Siz 66, or Siz 200 - they all have the "same" reach?  Also with Dex - there's no difference between 19, 59, or 109.  I find that doesn't make much sense.

RQ2 (and RQ3) rules are for humans fighting humans not dragons fighting dragons. Siz 66 and Dex 59 are not for humans character, even with magic.

For more epic system, you need HeroQuest rules.

10 hours ago, Vile said:

0 to 4/5 SR is one of the RQ2isms I prefer over RQ3. More granularity for combat.

RQ2 helps to make a Zorak Zoran hard to fight :)

Edited by Haimji
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2 hours ago, Haimji said:

RQ2 (and RQ3) rules are for humans fighting humans not dragons fighting dragons. Siz 66 and Dex 59 are not for humans character, even with magic.

For more epic system, you need HeroQuest rules.

RQ2 helps to make a Zorak Zoran hard to fight :)

I disagree.  

First, I disagree with your dismissiveness about SIZ.  A *crapton* of creatures in RQ are above SIZ 22 - in RQ3 (because that's the book I have handy) the size of the smallest-possible horse, or a largish Dark Troll.  Are you seriously asserting that a largish Dark Troll - SIZ22 - should have the same reach as an Allosaurus (4d6+32 or an average of 46)?  

And while Dex is more constrained across species, even something as pedestrian as Baboons have a Dex of 3d6+6, meaning they could train that up to 24+9 or 35.  

Reasonably well-thought-out mechanics will scale properly to cover both.  There's NO logical reason that initiative has to count up (causing the ceiling) instead of down (which could be open-ended).  None.

Game mechanics that artificially "make it easier" to kill massive, terrifying things may be perfectly fine for you, I find them as silly as arbitrarily ruling that a 1h sword does 2d20 damage... which would have the same effect of making bigger creatures easier to down.

 

9 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Title said rq2rq3-2-weapons-2-attacks-in-the-same-round : and so in the RuneQuest Third Edition Rules, Deluxe Edition by The Avalon Hill Game Compagny or in the Runequest (3) French editions by Oriflam

Strike Ranks, page (check yourself or roll a D100), book (don't bother me to tell you it's in combat) or go to player's notes :

(in upload down there)

And you are right, it's MY mistake first to not be precise : RQ2 is RAW is lower but it's a the little baby... RQ3 is a adult size !

Strike ranks modifiers.png

Let's remember that RQ4 is going to be based primarily on RQ2.   If we're talking about what the rules "should" be, I presumed we're talking about RQ2 because that's pretty much where the RQ4 rules will be.

 

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I have to agree with Styopa on this one.  I had never really thought much about it before, but his argument carries water.  Like AC in that other game, SR in Runequest should go upward, not downward.  No cap on SR means larger creatures can have greater Siz SR's and thus go before smaller ones.  That way everything scales naturally.  I know it's always been done the other way, but times change and some things can always be improved upon.  Perhaps it's too late for the newest edition of RQ to make that change, but it would be an improvement if/when they finally do.

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4 hours ago, styopa said:

1/ Reasonably well-thought-out mechanics will scale properly to cover both.  

2/ There's NO logical reason that initiative has to count up (causing the ceiling) instead of down (which could be open-ended).  None.

3/ Game mechanics that artificially "make it easier" to kill massive, terrifying things may be perfectly fine for you, I find them as silly as arbitrarily ruling that a 1h sword does 2d20 damage... which would have the same effect of making bigger creatures easier to down.

4/ Let's remember that RQ4 is going to be based primarily on RQ2.   If we're talking about what the rules "should" be, I presumed we're talking about RQ2 because that's pretty much where the RQ4 rules will be.

1/ a Big Yes :  fighting humanoid and "giantoid" could be scales properly but the mechanics will be more complex. And I know what I speak about because I already have convert RQ3 system to a time (SR) and/or length (a bit like some wargame) with all physics formula used to properly and truly simulate this. Formulas aren't so complex but results give a bit strange system. Between complexity+reality vs simplicity+fantasy, choose the last and don't make house rules realistic which is the theme of the thread.

3/ Oh Yes : if you follow the open tables of SIZ / Kg (TAI 1 to 100), a lot of creatures SIZ are awfully wrong. An the table itself is not perfectly logical but it's well constructed for something done in the 80' for a game... I don't know any game that is close to Runequest.

4/ Perhaps :  it's not the forum for the Runequest 2.5 and between rq2 and rq3, the skills are the very big change ! The combat sections are not so far different.

What I really think is Runequest 2/3 is made for humans fighting humans and sometimes big monsters, the systems is made for the first and limit compatible with the second. Because D&D was a human vs monster and Greg & RQ makers choose a human(oid) vs human(oid) games because fighting monster is just boriiiing. Killing tons of reptilians make you a great hunter, but fighting others intellect races and cultures make you a Hero.

 

 

2/ There is one, and NO SR should not be count upward ! : Ceiling rank is counting in seconds (time/SR) but Open-ended is counting in something akin to hertz (time inverse, D20) which feel not very instinctive and is a hell to truly manage when doing realist multiple actions (theme of the thread). What most of people forget/don't care is that SR is linked to movement and if you have relative strikes rank you could get :

-Situation where 2 PC (on very low sr5 or very fast sr15) could have 5-10 SR difference  which mean in human movement 30-60 meters difference in one round. So the slower run 30meters in 12 seconds (a snail running at 9km/h) and the faster 90m in 12s (27 km/h).

-Situation where you cannot attacks (disposable SR5, sword strike rank 7) and the others like Olaf the berserker (axe SR4) do 2 ranged attacks (7sr) throw his two axes (4sr), jump off a roof (1sr) and grab his 2H axe... (2-weapons-2-attacks-in-the-same-round will be for optimized almost cheated fighter only)

I will be harsh and make Two conclusions : You want to play D20 systems in Glorantha (Greg and Sandy 'll curse you, if not I will ) or you don't want to play Runequest at all.

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MJ, you make good points as well for why SR should not count upward.  This issue for me becomes more sticky.  I agree with Styopa that larger creatures should have a faster SR, but I agree with you that SR has to count downward so as to keep time linked for the purposes of multiple actions.  Perhaps the answer would be to start with slightly higher SR's to begin with to make room for lower SRs for larger creatures.  I mean, it's silly to scale too much for larger creatures.  Really, you've already got troll sized SR's, after which you'd only need elephant sized SR and Giant sized SR.  

But perfection is the enemy of good enough so I'm not that concerned if the game stays as is.

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MJ sadique, what you say makes sense, but only if you adopt a rule that is one of the most questionable rules of classic runequest: the one movement per SR rule.

Once you drop this rule and go for the simpler one present in the BGB (you move 30m per round, no matter your DEX), everything becomes simpler. And you can use high-to-low SR order without any problem.
 

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1 hour ago, Pentallion said:

But perfection is the enemy of good enough so I'm not that concerned if the game stays as is.

Yeah, you are perfectly right Pentallion. And in the actual system you're not far from the correct answer, but unless you do a Monster Coliseum with the original map andbeing confronted to the problem and you can't find the simplest and more effective answer. (To you all, do an true arena fight, you'll learn more than never and moreover if you have tricky players).

First and before answering : I'm the first concerned by the SR tables... I love the principles an idea but trully hate the numbers used for DEX/SIZ modifier which strictly have no reason to be (no logic at all, no matter formula or idea used). If not enough, The weapons are arbitrary used numbers based on what the max length of an short / 1H / 2H are most European weapons, Empiric = no logic. To add up another one, the best should to use length instead of time in SR (I will save you this reason).

Why SR is still great, and why we should still used it : because in term of "time to strike" you add up your speed, you steps length and the you weapon length (Quickness an reach of our dear styopa) so the SR of an action = 1 + DEX + SIZ + Weapon. In rq2, the 1 is missed because if you do an attack at SR 3, even with all modifier to 0 the second can only happen after so at SR4 ! In Rq3, the just combine 1 + DEX to a create a new dex meaning "you have to take a minimum of time to to something". (2-weapons-2-attacks-in-the-same-round saved !)

"And my allosaurus ?" yes I come to it : First thing you can in mind, is the japenese concept of maai (space)... with a big weapon you have a larger area of control (maai) and can strike someone with a shorter maai (because he is not aware or have a shorter weapon). In case of Monster Coliseum play (situation1) or classic cases :

  1. Situation 1, coliseum fight : you pin-point your location and the monster, and treat the situation as a ranged fighting. You have to use SR to move in range, and at your strike SR, if nobody in range (half movement + weapon lenght, human+2H sword 1,5m+1,5m = 3m; allosaurus 7x1,5 = 11m) you can't attack, if in range you do a strike !
  2. Situation 2, Human vs human : Usual case of the rules.
  3. Situation 3, Human vs monster : Offensive maai, the monster need 2m of movement to be in range, human 4m. As the rule said, you have to use SR to move in range and the after this you can use SR of you attack to perform it. but you need a grid for each fight, not the best situation.
  4. Situation 4 : You mounted rules, the longer weapon strike first (medium blue vs allosaurus) and after this in melee fight were everyone are at range use standard SR (light blue vs allosaurus) unless you have cunning fighter who side attack and direct go to melee saving you the reach problem (dark blue vs allosaurus).
17 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

MJ sadique, what you say makes sense, but only if you adopt a rule that is one of the most questionable rules of classic runequest: the one movement per SR rule.

Once you drop this rule and go for the simpler one present in the BGB (you move 30m per round, no matter your DEX), everything becomes simpler. And you can use high-to-low SR order without any problem.

First have no problem with the rule, you can fight or run ! And unless you do ninja fights : two man running along a way and exchanging strikes, you can never move and strike. In the rule you add the two SR used and do the all simultaneously. (simplest, no house rules, manageable an enough logic for haimji -I don't post for veteran but for new master).

There is another best answer come from the sorcery's haste/rise dex spell principle (2MP = DEX+2 = SR-1,I finally come to it after 1h of writing, muahahhh) :

-For DEX/SIZ over 20+ you can give 1pt of B.SR for each 2Pts of DEX/SIZ over 20 : Which mean at a DEX or SIZ of 26, you have 3 Bonus Strike Rank (BSR like in berserk). This mean a big troll can use this 3 B.SR to shorter is attack SR (offensive use of reach) of even rise the SR attack of the enemy who could lose his attack if SR go over 10 (defensive use of SR).

Personally, I often play with Sorcerer Runelord who use High speed spell and the B.SR given can be use in a lot of strategy... From all house rules it has pass my personnel technical control named BFS.D who mean that is better (quality of combat is rising for the GM), faster (no complex calculation before or during the fight for the GM) and stronger (resist more complain for the GM) and the diamond property (Clarity : the player understand it unlike some THACO + Solidity : the rules are fixed, no change interference + Precious : the players don't lose anything, only gain something).

 

SR - Human vs allosaurus (case are 1mx1m).jpg

Arena - Human vs allosaurus.docx

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