Negative use of Rune Magic

[Zit]

Is it possible tu use a rune in a negative way, like the mouvement rune to slow down somebody or to glue something ?

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Zit said:

Is it possible tu use a rune in a negative way, like the mouvement rune to slow down somebody or to glue something ?

I'd say No for the Power runes - the opposite you've expressed is what is reflected by the opposite Power rune (e.g. both your examples reflect use of the Stasis rune).  But, you could use the Movement rune to put someone constantly in motion or to make a rock vibrate until it crumbles into sand.

For the Elemental runes, I'd say Yes - each element contains varied 'positive' and 'negative' aspects.  E.g. the Earth rune could bless someone with fertility or curse someone with sterility.  Both aspects are within the element.

[davecake]

Earth is unusual in that it tends to distinguish between the positive and negative aspects (eg Ernalda and Voria positive, Maran Gor and Babeester Gor negative), but this may even be unique to the Orlanthi Earth Pantheon. The negative version of Fire is a whole separate Element, Darkness - and while mostly Darkness deities are in entirely separate pantheons, we do see eg the Raven and Sun Hawk or Dendara and her sister Gorgorma. The Storm and Water approaches seem a bit different. There don't seem to be any Water deities related to the deprivation of water -  powers related to the deprivation of water seem to either be other elements (eg Daga) or draconic. There are water gods with drowning and other negative water power. And while there are gods related to lack of movement in the air (well, one, Molanni, anyway) mostly the 'bad' side of Storm comes from too much (eg the violence of Vadrus), rather than not enough. 

[Zit]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'd say No for the Power runes - the opposite you've expressed is what is reflected by the opposite Power rune (e.g. both your examples reflect use of the Stasis rune).  But, you could use the Movement rune to put someone constantly in motion or to make a rock vibrate until it crumbles into sand.

For the Elemental runes, I'd say Yes - each element contains varied 'positive' and 'negative' aspects.  E.g. the Earth rune could bless someone with fertility or curse someone with sterility.  Both aspects are within the element.

This is what I thought as well. So a life rune cannot be used to remove life. But could it be used to stop providing new life, which is different from bringing death ? Like puting the fertility to sleep and making a flock sterile ?

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Earth is unusual in that it tends to distinguish between the positive and negative aspects (eg Ernalda and Voria positive, Maran Gor and Babeester Gor negative), but this may even be unique to the Orlanthi Earth Pantheon.

I was more thinking about rune magic than the powers of deities. I'm not sure a raw element rune is bad or good. It just is. Is the Earth realy able to provide fertility on its own ? The Fertility rune is there for that, the Earth is only the place or material containing the fertility. Ernalda has both runes. Or could earth magic change the features of a piece of element, that is separating it from the other runes being in it ? Like a piece of land does not accept fertility anymore ? In the same way, can a Earth rune move earth, or is a mouvement rune required as well ? What could then a raw element rune allow to do on elements ? Create / dispell material ? Change features (like rock becomes sand, fertile land becomes dead soil) ?

 

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The negative version of Fire is a whole separate Element, Darkness -

I'm not sure, I think they are only different things. Water can extinguish fire, does it make it it negative version of it ? And what about the Black Sun ? I would say Darkness and Fire are rather incompatible. But this is another topic.

 

Conditions runes can be used in either way, bad or good (which is a very relative judgement). So, I could use Communication to understand a foreigner or to make someone unable to communicate.

[SDLeary]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

The negative version of Fire is a whole separate Element, Darkness - and while mostly Darkness deities are in entirely separate pantheons, we do see eg the Raven and Sun Hawk or Dendara and her sister Gorgorma. The Storm and Water approaches seem a bit different.

Is it? Fire provides warmth and light, but it also consumes and destroys (and in destroying life, kills/brings death). Many would consider that a negative. I think that pretty much all of the runes can be seen with at least some dualistic function, bringing or enhancing life on one end, and bringing or facilitating death/destruction on the other. 

SDLeary

[MJ Sadique]

negative-use-of-rune-magic : How so few word can bring so much questioning ? I'v read the thread one hour ago, and my personal Eurmal Tricksty spirit who sat on my shoulder non-stop ask me to think how marvellous and genius you are ! After speaking with Jeff in the new rq 2.5 sorcery about how runes are controlled by western magic, I had a change in mind.

First : what is a Rune ? what possessing it mean ? For me, I always told my PC, a rune is non just a symbol or a brick of the universe, it's three in one : the ultimate nexus of a power existing in the "divin" plan, also all the knowledge, concepts and ideas of it and also it very incarnation. In short like a creature a soul, , a mind, a body.

1. As a power, the negative is not possible. If it is, it won't be a very efficient use, 1/10 at best.
2. As a knowledge (like a humakti mastering sword by the usage of death rune), I'll say it's possible because if you know everything about life, you know how end it !
3. As an incarnation, could DEATH, the sword of humakt be fertile ? yes, because all weapons of the world are the children of death... (tricky, yeah but it works)

Second : I always think that you can turn you own magical energy into the power of a rune but I won't turn this way today because unless your personal energy is the law rune itself, you can't create a rune or even a tiny portion of it. You can gather it, control and manipulate it and disperse it : With this vision, you can use a rune to have an opposite or negative effect :

1. If you gather all the Fire Rune (as brick element of the world) from you surrounding, won't people lose their fire, won't the place feel ... cold ?
2. If you manipulate the movement rune to oppose the movement of a boat, like two opposing force this won't be a stasis use or state, just a conflict of movement but still look like something was in movement and then stop. But two movements are still in action
3. If you disperse the fertility in the body of someone, he won't strictly die but the death rune element in him will gain majority effect ... and he will die but it's just an indirect effect.

My little Eurmal is saying me a lot of thing but I'll leave it for another days. Great questioning Zit !!! the Eurmal in me really thank you !

 

[Darius West]

Runes often have a logical opposite.

Death-Fertility/Life.  Mobility-Stasis.  Law-Chaos.  Truth-Illusion.  Harmony-Disorder.  Luck-Fate.

It can be argued that Element Runes have opposites:

Darkness-Fire.  Earth-Water.  Air-Moon.  And if you are feeling charitable Shadow-Light.

Some runes don't have opposites however.  What is the opposite of plant for example?  Dragonewt?  Man?  Undead?  What is the opposite of Mastery ?  (There is no known Rune for incompetence, but I have known a few people who have integrated it.)

 

[SDLeary]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Runes often have a logical opposite.

Death-Fertility/Life.  Mobility-Stasis.  Law-Chaos.  Truth-Illusion.  Harmony-Disorder.  Luck-Fate.

It can be argued that Element Runes have opposites:

Darkness-Fire.  Earth-Water.  Air-Moon.  And if you are feeling charitable Shadow-Light.

Some runes don't have opposites however.  What is the opposite of plant for example?  Dragonewt?  Man?  Undead?  What is the opposite of Mastery ?  (There is no known Rune for incompetence, but I have known a few people who have integrated it.)

 

Well... Plant – Beast; in our world it could be Man – Spirit, though might not be in Glorantha, or not all of it anyway. 

As far as the elemental runes go, I'm not seeing how the you've listed are opposites. The "logical" oppositions would be Fire – Water, Earth – Air, Moon – Darkness (A Yelornan pairing no doubt, as the Light against the Darkness).

SDLeary

Edited October 15, 2016 by SDLeary

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Well... Plant – Beast; in our world it could be Man – Spirit, though might not be in Glorantha, or not all of it anyway. 

As far as the elemental runes go, I'm not seeing how the you've listed are opposites. The "logical" oppositions would be Fire – Water, Earth – Air, Moon – Darkness (A Yelornan pairing no doubt, as the Light against the Darkness).

SDLeary

Elemental opposites are probably pretty weak.  As are form opposites.  I think therefore that Undeath (sentient, life draining) is the opposite of plant (non-sentient, life supporting).  Dragon is clearly the opposite of man  .  Beast (material) is the opposite of spirit (immaterial), while dragonewt is the opposite of dragonewt. LOL.  Michel Foucault would support my classification system, even as I totally disagreed with him.

[jajagappa]

On 10/15/2016 at 2:46 AM, Darius West said:

Elemental opposites are probably pretty weak.

The Elemental runes aren't opposites but a progression:  Fire over Dark, Dark over Earth, Earth over Air, Air over Water, Water over Fire.

[soltakss]

I can see the logic of controlling a rune meaning that you can increase/decrease the rune, so if you have the Mobility rune then you can increase/decrease Mobility, speeding things up or slowing things down (pushing against rather than with). You could dim a torch by using Light to decrease the light of the torch. Not sure about using Fertility to make someone infertile, though, but you might be able to decrease fertility slightly, as you are controlling fertility.

[Zit]

That is exactly my question. But can you the same way decrease stasis to move faster ? 

[MJ Sadique]

I CYCLING ELEMENTS

On 20/10/2016 at 2:04 AM, jajagappa said:

The Elemental runes aren't opposites but a progression:  Fire over Dark, Dark over Earth, Earth over Air, Air over Water, Water over Fire.

Not only ! Theylan organize elements by a which god is stronger logic or which Godly Era extinct the later ones (seasons sequence). In Kralorela, Godunya is stronger so Light is far superior than any others. But The pentacle of five element is a the result of study made By Zzabur and popularize by Godlearners. It's not how elements in Glorantha works... it's how Zzabur establish they works and this is a occidental/sorcery point of view.

The pentacle logic is a sequence : none is the strongest and opposite don't exist. Every element is stronger than another but also weaker than a third one.

• Zzabur circle is Water > Fire > Darkness > Earth > Air (like in new RQ2.5 Sheet)

But it's one king of logic, glorantha's reality is more complex and magicaly speaking others logics can works depend on the Myth you call forth :

• As Chinese circle is / Kralori logic should be : Water > Fire > Metal > Wood > Earth (No wind cause if you can't see it, it doesn't exist .... it's a spirit doing)
• As Japanese logic (Godai) is / Vormain logic should be : Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Light, pure energy - no cycle, just ascending order)

II OPPOSING ELEMENTS

In ancient times, some greeks organised the element with four oppositing ones : Fire Earth Water Air. (opposite element = inversed symbol, air similar to our dear dragonewt rune). And the logic(s) behind still work in glorantha too. I personnaly choose a six elements made of Greek's square of four and I add the original Glorantha Myth (CF King of Sartar, old version) where world start being only Light and Darkness (Umath as light champion win and the others elements are created). I use a tri-dimensional relation : Greek 4 elements as a square and Light above and Darkness under the square and this give a octahedron.

• Flatten it and you get a hexagram of Darkness, Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Light
• Eliminate the Light, Flatten it and you get the Zzabur circle back !
• Eliminate the Darkness, Flatten it and you get the Godai (Japanese/Vormain) back !

Out of thread : Having a chemistry Master, I study a lot elements, alchemy and the world's differents logics. The greek's one was still used until Lavoisier break the Phlogiston theory. But the elements was "The Science's Major Theory of 4 Element still live more than 2000years....".

Conclusion : Cycling Element is mainly a "how to create, how to destroy" and who is weaker and stronger and element can change easily mainly a transmutation theory. Opposing elements is much more base on interaction, no destruction or creation is at work everything still exist, in equal, part but different nature.

 

Edited October 22, 2016 by MJ Sadique

[MJ Sadique]

14 hours ago, Zit said:

That is exactly my question. But can you the same way decrease stasis to move faster ? 

I'll be short YES it can : Scientifically speaking extracting the stability (as Inertia or friction) of an object make it unstable, easier to move / accelerate; a bit like taking off the breaks on a car or ejecting weight in a boat. A simple way : To the question what is stable and opposing speeding up ? If the position of a rock is stable, making it less stable make it more movable !

• Making your shoes's soles less stable create an ice skate.
• Making water around a ship less stable, and you'll slip swiftly on it.
• You can also make an avalanche and ride it....

Edited October 22, 2016 by MJ Sadique
correction

[JonL]

In the context of Theism, I believe the relevant question is, "Have the god or gods I approach via this Rune used it that way?" The Dismiss and Tap operators in Sorcery show that sort of thing to be theoretically possible, but Theists (unlike Sorcerers) don't just apply the power arbitrarily. I could see what's being described as something an Illuminate might learn to do though.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, JonL said:

"Have the god or gods I approach via this Rune used it that way?"

That's a good way to look at it.

Orlanth could certainly use his powers to Command Winds to Calm, though perhaps more at the request of his wife.

Ernalda can certainly add or remove (bless or curse) her powers from the earth.

But other deities will likely be far more restrictive. 

[soltakss]

On 10/26/2016 at 1:48 AM, jajagappa said:

That's a good way to look at it.

Orlanth could certainly use his powers to Command Winds to Calm, though perhaps more at the request of his wife.

Ernalda can certainly add or remove (bless or curse) her powers from the earth.

But other deities will likely be far more restrictive. 

That's what normal worshippers do.

Mystics, however, could gain mythical insights to transcend the normal way of looking things. So, an Orlanthi mystic might see what Orlanth as King of the Winds and Umath as Storm father hold all the powers of wind, so might see that the powers of Brastalos and Molanni are contained within Storm, so calming storms, stilling winds and making the air hang heavy are all aspects of Storm. 

The more that people research/join/experience different cults with the same Runes then the more they see that runic powers are not simply restricted to the spells and powers of the individual cults.

 

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

an Orlanthi mystic might see what Orlanth as King of the Winds and Umath as Storm father hold all the powers of wind, so might see that the powers of Brastalos and Molanni are contained within Storm, so calming storms, stilling winds and making the air hang heavy are all aspects of Storm

And this is clearly what Lokaymadon did when he connected with Taramuth and defeated the traditional Orlanthi.  Or those who contacted the Diamond Storm Dragon in the 2nd age.

These are the powers for the heroes of the Hero Wars to find or rediscover, though, and provide to their followers such as the units of the Sartar Magical Union.