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Firearms, joules and damage dice


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5 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

To be honest (in us_soldier_mode), who won't use a more efficient bullet to save your ass on the battlefield... just because some rulers have written a shitty stupid rules.

To be honest just about every solider. It's not like they get to go shopping to buy their ammo. It's provided for them. Secondly, the type of ammo you are promoting isn't really better for soldier on the battlefield. 

 

Hoolow point rounds aren't all that effective at the velocities used by most handguns. Nor all that great for low caliber rifle rounds such as 5.56mm. Hollow point and franible ammo (hydra-shock, glasier safety slugs, etc.) are best for civilian home defense use, and do not perform well against armored opponents. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

But you're not closer to real world lethality stats. Its' more like you are making super weapons. Just where are you getting these really high lethality numbers from?

Read my post some line above : http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5412-firearms-joules-and-damage-dice/?page=5#comment-81104

Autoquote : "Hits to torso are lethal in 70% of times, and 80% lethality for hits on head and neck."

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

To be honest just about every solider. It's not like they get to go shopping to buy their ammo. It's provided for them. Secondly, the type of ammo you are promoting isn't really better for soldier on the battlefield.

Hollow point rounds aren't all that effective at the velocities used by most handguns. Nor all that great for low caliber rifle rounds such as 5.56mm. Hollow point and fragmentableammo (hydra-shock, glasier safety slugs, etc.) are best for civilian home defense use, and do not perform well against armored opponents. 

Yeah poor soldier who can choose their ammo, they even have to buy their bullet-proof vest (in France at least !)... but If they were PJ, they will choose H.P and Piercing FMJ as regular bullet (I do this at Kuro Tensei). HP is good vs mass of unprotected enemies (WWI German army, zombies or unprotected cultists) but currently guerrilla warfare need more piercing ammo like Pointed FMJ to go through table and walls so pointed FMJ regain "Grace".

Big Mistake,
-5.56mm have the same effects to wound as Hollow point... because their gravity center is low, they have tendencies to yaw/rotate, sometimes even creating fragments (doc1). These effects are means to create a FMJ bullets with Expanding wounds like Hollow Points so creating a HP 5.56mm is absolutely useless because 5.56 have already all effects of expanding bullets. (Doc 2, p7 fig 4 (HP) & fig 5 (5.56mm wounds type) ).
-Moreover 5.56mm FMJ isn't against the treaty that forbade Expanding bullet but still have the same effects... isn't this lovely ? And H.P guns bullets aren't made for war because you don't do war with gun but with a rifle : the moment you start to use your gun mean you are in a DEEP SHIT !!! Unless you chain of command is stupid and always give you suicide mission (like in past WW).

1 https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf (have not read yet it but images are explicits)
2 http://www.urgences-serveur.fr/IMG/pdf/trauma1_balistique_sfar97.pdf

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16 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

Autoquote : "Hits to torso are lethal in 70% of times, and 80% lethality for hits on head and neck."

Lethal, yes. Not insta-kill. The damages you are proposing are way too high. Lethal includes those that make it to the hospital, but die several days later in ICU. And to be honest... even that number sounds high.

SDLeary

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10 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Lethal, yes. Not insta-kill. The damages you are proposing are way too high. Lethal includes those that make it to the hospital, but die several days later in ICU. And to be honest... even that number sounds high.

SDLeary

Exactly. Those numbers are more in the category of self inflicted gunshot wounds. Data I see indicates a fatality rate closer to 30%, with the majority (two-thirds)of that being people who died before getting treatment. 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Slightly tangential (but I hope still useful)

When I wrote 'my' GenDragon rules bodge (not a subtle name change I will confess) I made gun damage pretty low* but allowed the damage to 'explode' if you rolled a 6 then treat it as a 5 and roll the die again. That seemed to allow for grazes but also the occasional instant death bullet to the vitals that I wanted

*2d6 for a BP pistol, 3d6 Carbine, 4d6 Rifle which are not outstanding values vs a typical PenDragon Knight.

Edited by Al.

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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For me, all of the above is far too much detail. In a RQ/BRP/d100/Whatever game, all I want is a reasonable range of damage and a few extra stats, anything more is way too much, I don't even need different types of pistol, I am happy with small/medium.heavy and manual/semi/automatic, same for rifles and so on.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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6 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, all of the above is far too much detail. In a RQ/BRP/d100/Whatever game, all I want is a reasonable range of damage and a few extra stats, anything more is way too much, I don't even need different types of pistol, I am happy with small/medium.heavy and manual/semi/automatic, same for rifles and so on.

You are perfectly right. We don't need all the weapons of the world and only a few of them is clearly enough. but why do we insist so much.. ?

why ? : Older players want sometimes more realist or credible effects for some weapons. They sometimes just want MORE ! and the best way is to ask some fanatics dudes (like me) to help them find the good balance to choose which weapons and how make them enough realist (not having someone surviving a Luger shot at point blank....).

I One of the First Step (choice) was initiated by Atgxtg
"Atgxtg said : So can we agree on desired damages for various benchmark calibers ? For example, .22LR, 9mm Parabellum, .45 ACP, .357M, .10mm, .44M, 5.56mm, 7.62 NATO, .50BMG to get the ball rolling." and I respond by making some (not so good) ranking base on Kinetic energy :
Type : Light / Medium / Standard / Heavy / Super Heavy
Pistol : .22 LR, .38 Super Auto, 9mm Parabellum, 10mm, .45 ACP, .50 S&W

II Damage and secondary effects
This is the main problem, what damage and why ? the oldest answer was to give gradually damage like D4+1 / D6+1 / D8+1 / D10+1 / 2D6 or even for D6 fans D3 / D6 / 2D6 / 3D6 / 4D6. but Basic have a ton of weapon and with a spear at 1d8+1 you clearly have to face the "Why my .380 Magnum does less damage than the enemy stupid spear  ???" :

-> The answer is not important, it just have to be fair, credible and impartial !

The mathematics and calculations are always impartial but the people manipulating them not ! So we fight to present our calculation, analyse and logic.


For the others part of discussion : Let's compare my Hydrashock analysis versus Basic Spear damage and Lethality...
-Spear (1D8+1, empaling x2 Damage) vs 9mm Hydrashock (1D8+1, Empaling x3 Damage)

On 14/12/2016 at 5:49 PM, MJ Sadique said:

If we state a human have 12HP and get a lethal hit at 6-11pts damage, Oneshot.kill at 12&+ and is Deadly in the two case (no heal ^^). -round up %-

-1 hit with 9mm standard a spear, 1D8+1 (E with Damage x2) : Lethal : 48%, Oneshot.kill : 10%, Deadly : 58%
-3 hits with 9mm standard a spear, 1D8+1 (E with Damage x2) : a Lethal hit 86% / a Oneshot.kill : 27%

9mm Hydrashock (1D8+1, Empaling x3 Damage -see I reduce them -)
-1 hit with 9mm standard, 1D8+1 (E with Damage x3) : Lethal : 45%, Oneshot.kill : 15%, Deadly : 60%. (Almost double oneshot %, yeah a bit generous)
-3 hits with 9mm standard, 1D8+1 (E with Damage x3) : a Lethal hit 83% / a Oneshot.kill : 39%

Some people still tell me it's not realist without any analysis or arguments... So you all tell me a 9mm 20° Century weapon which have almost same Deadliness than a spear and have just 5% to overkill someone in one try or even 12% in three times is a "super weapons". Really ?

Sincerely, you do want a 9mm Expanding bullet to be as the same as a SPEAR ? 1D8+1 (E : x2) ???

You'd better come with a better answer than just "I don't agree" ...
 

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8 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, all of the above is far too much detail. In a RQ/BRP/d100/Whatever game, all I want is a reasonable range of damage and a few extra stats, anything more is way too much, I don't even need different types of pistol, I am happy with small/medium.heavy and manual/semi/automatic, same for rifles and so on.

I can understand that, everyone is happy with different levels of abstraction.

Assuming a BGB, or suitable Basic Role-Playing successor, I would work it something like this, with examples in parens...

--------------

Pistols

Plinker 1d4 (.22 LR and such)
Light 1d6 (.32, .38, .380APC)
Medium 1d8 (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum)
Heavy 1d10 (.45, 10mm Auto, many magnums)

Rifles (and machine guns)

Plinker 1d6 (.22 LR and such)
Light 1d8 (5.56mm and cousins)
Medium 1d10 (7.62 and cousins)
Heavy 1d12 (.338 Lapua, big game hunting rifles)
Ridiculous 1d20 (.50 cal, and others)

For automatic weapons, a burst adds a second die.

Specials impale, and use the same rules; both dice from auto weapons impale. Specials bleed at 1pt/turn (ignorable).

Criticals are max impale damage. Criticals bleed at 1pt/melee (ignorable).

Major Wounds automatically bleed. 

Fully Automatic weapons fire is generally used differently, shooting into an area or sweeping in a particular direction, in order to Suppress their targets. Targets must make a Willpower check (POW x3??) or are suppressed. Suppressed targets are at half skill till the end of the combat, or until they have hit a target of their own, whichever comes first. Exposed targets (those in the target area not specifically hiding behind cover) may still be hit; roll 30 minus the targets DEX to see if they have been hit. 

------------

Or something along those lines. And of course, this would have to be jiggled if using hit locations.

SDLeary

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17 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I can understand that, everyone is happy with different levels of abstraction.

Assuming a BGB, or suitable Basic Role-Playing successor, I would work it something like this, with examples in parens...

--------------

Pistols

Plinker 1d4 (.22 LR and such)
Light 1d6 (.32, .38, .380APC)
Medium 1d8 (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Magnum)
Heavy 1d10 (.45, 10mm Auto, many magnums)

Rifles (and machine guns)

Plinker 1d6 (.22 LR and such)
Light 1d8 (5.56mm and cousins)
Medium 1d10 (7.62 and cousins)
Heavy 1d12 (.338 Lapua, big game hunting rifles)
Ridiculous 1d20 (.50 cal, and others)

For automatic weapons, a burst adds a second die.

Specials impale, and use the same rules; both dice from auto weapons impale. Specials bleed at 1pt/turn (ignorable).

Criticals are max impale damage. Criticals bleed at 1pt/melee (ignorable).

Major Wounds automatically bleed. 

Fully Automatic weapons fire is generally used differently, shooting into an area or sweeping in a particular direction, in order to Suppress their targets. Targets must make a Willpower check (POW x3??) or are suppressed. Suppressed targets are at half skill till the end of the combat, or until they have hit a target of their own, whichever comes first. Exposed targets (those in the target area not specifically hiding behind cover) may still be hit; roll 30 minus the targets DEX to see if they have been hit. 

------------

Or something along those lines. And of course, this would have to be jiggled if using hit locations.

SDLeary

Part of the issue is damage dice try to do to much in BRP. There is a big difference between tissue damage and armor penetration, and a huge difference between the effective range of rifle bullets (typically long and thin) and pistol bullets (short and stubby) beyond just barrel length.

A .44 Magnum in a lever action rifle has a longer effective than a .44 Magnum in a pistol, but its effective range still falls well short of a 5.56mm NATO in a rifle despite both having about the same barrel length. The .44 magnum has a short fat bullet that even in a rifle travels less than 2000 feet per second, while a 5.56mm moves along at around 3000 fps and has a much longer more aerodynamic bullet. In a handgun a .44 mag is good to around 50 yards, in a rifle perhaps 100-200 yards, but a 5.56mm NATO is considered effective out to 500 yards and even shorty versions are effective to 300 yards.

 

So take a .44 Magnum with its 1000-1200ft/lbs of energy, fat 240 grain bullet moving it along at around 1400fps and compare it to a 7.62mm NATO with a 147 grain bullet moving at 2800fps with 2400ft/lbs of energy. When it comes to tissue damage I'm perfectly fine with your chart giving both 1d10, but when it comes to penetration a 1/4" steel plate will stop a .44 mag at close range, while a 7.62mm will punch a hole through that plate at 300 yards and still have enough energy left over to hurt someone on the other side. 

 

This results in our traditional BRP damage growing very high to separate small pistols from big pistols, and big pistols from rifles. This works from a penetration point of view but creates the issues discussed of making a "graze" from a rifle very unlikely.

 

Range is fairly easy, I'm sure velocity and barrel length can be used to work out a repeatable range stat, although even this is not entirely satisfactory as "slower" .30 cal rounds in real life have a longer effective range than faster 5.56mm rounds, most full power .30 cal rifles being considered effective to 1000 yards or more.

Penetration vs damage is a bit trickier. 

 

This doesn't necessarily have to be much more complicated than the current system.

 

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Personally I'm fine with broad abstraction for damage, like Simon suggested.

If I want more detail I turn to the Investigator Weapons books, Volume 1 and 2.

Even those books are too granular for me at times, but the attention to detail does help with immersion.

 

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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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On 12/18/2016 at 11:06 AM, soltakss said:

For me, all of the above is far too much detail. In a RQ/BRP/d100/Whatever game, all I want is a reasonable range of damage and a few extra stats, anything more is way too much, I don't even need different types of pistol, I am happy with small/medium.heavy and manual/semi/automatic, same for rifles and so on.

But just what do we consider to be a reasonable range for damage? Or what do we consider to be a medium pistol and what do we consider to be a heavy pistol? I think it boils down to what level of abstraction people are happy with. That depends on lot on campaign genre and style of play.

 

For example, you usually don't need to differentiate between, say a 20mm Vulcan autocannon and a 30mm ADEN. In most cases a hit against a PC or a PC driven vehicle will be an autokill. But, in a campaign that has a lot of tech, or superpowers, then the differences between it might be important. But, if I were running a Call of Cthulhu campaign, I wouldn't care much at all, since so many of the Mythos nasties are essentially bulletproof.

 

As far as damage vs. penetration goes, yes, it is tricker. For example a modern tank round can penetrate further than one of the main guns from a WWII battlewagon. But the main gun is going to do a lot more damage. There are a few ways to handle this. The best might be to rate weapons in how much armor they can bypass, or apply some sort of modifier to damage after it gets past armor. Maybe even something as simply as tweaking the impale damage (like how rapiers do more than double damage on an impale but halberds do less)

 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I wasn't even aware of those books. I'll have to check them out. 

From memory they are published by Sixty Stone Press, and I highly recommend these books for the firearms enthusiasts amongst the BRP community.

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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7 hours ago, Toadmaster said:

This results in our traditional BRP damage growing very high to separate small pistols from big pistols, and big pistols from rifles. This works from a penetration point of view but creates the issues discussed of making a "graze" from a rifle very unlikely.

Yes. Hence the reintroduction of the d12, and the somewhat reduction in the smaller pistols and rifles (1d4 and 1d6 respectively). Penetration is trickier unless you have an actual penetration stat for weapons of some type. 

You guys should take a look at the new Delta Green Agents Handbook. It looks like they have actually increased firearms damage over what they had in the old books.

SDLeary

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On 12/19/2016 at 9:14 PM, Mankcam said:

From memory they are published by Sixty Stone Press, and I highly recommend these books for the firearms enthusiasts amongst the BRP community.

Thanks. I picked up Vol 2. Overall it does a nice job. it puts the weapon damages on a progression and covers a lot of the options, tactics and special ammo that we've been discussing. Personally, I think the weapon damages are a bit too high, and give too many adds (i.e. 1D10+1D4+2 for a .44 Magnum), but that's something that can be worked with. Since the weapon damages and ranked on a relative scale to each other, it would be very easy to do up an alternate table and just plug it in.  

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On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 6:35 PM, SDLeary said:

Yes. Hence the reintroduction of the d12, and the somewhat reduction in the smaller pistols and rifles (1d4 and 1d6 respectively). Penetration is trickier unless you have an actual penetration stat for weapons of some type. 

You guys should take a look at the new Delta Green Agents Handbook. It looks like they have actually increased firearms damage over what they had in the old books.

SDLeary

There are some penetration calculators out there like this one (only the Krupp formula side seems to work)

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/p/demarre-calculator.html

It is really made for tank guns but it seems to work well enough on smaller projectiles at least for our needs. Keep in mind that this is based on velocity at point of impact and assumes an AP round. Penetration is in mm of hardened steel plate. I get 12mm penetration for a 7.62mm NATO, while official data gives a 7.62mm NATO AP round a penetration of only 7mm, and Ball 3.45mm but that is at 300 yards, not the muzzle.

I'm sure a bit of tweaking would come up with a useful number. I'd probably start by nerfing the result as even AP rifle ammo is soft compared to an AP tank gun round. Maybe 20% for a lead round, 30% for ball (FMJ) and 60% for a steel core AP round? That would give the 7.62mm NATO ball 3.6mm penetration and AP 7.2mm which is pretty close to the real stats at 300 yards.

Of course there is really no need to get that fussy, just running the numbers through the calculator gives you a reference number, and from there you just need to decide how that lines up with armor points.

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On 21/12/2016 at 8:26 PM, Toadmaster said:

There are some penetration calculators out there like this one (only the Krupp formula side seems to work)

It is really made for tank guns but it seems to work well enough on smaller projectiles at least for our needs. Keep in mind that this is based on velocity at point of impact and assumes an AP round. Penetration is in mm of hardened steel plate. I get 12mm penetration for a 7.62mm NATO, while official data gives a 7.62mm NATO AP round a penetration of only 7mm, and Ball 3.45mm but that is at 300 yards, not the muzzle.

Of course there is really no need to get that fussy, just running the numbers through the calculator gives you a reference number, and from there you just need to decide how that lines up with armor points.

The formula are form K.E projectiles (Kinetic Energy penetrators) which follow the logic of Bullet energy = Deformation energy.
Ek = C * D^x * d^y where C is a constant, x+y <= 3. D : Bullet Diameter, d : penetration, with Krupp Equation (C = Ck, x+y=3; x = 1,666 & y = 1,333), DeMarre Equation (C = Cd, X+y<3; X = 1,5, y = 1,4) CF.1

Krupp and DeMarre given lower and upper estimations and the Constant can be given or guess if you use a reference. We don't have to know these because we will go from penetration to Damage (assuming a linear relation in the range of handgun ammo) so we have two value :
Ek = Ck' * D^1,666 * Damage^1,333 to Ek = Cd' * D^1,5 * Damage^1,4

The reference have to be something where Ek can be linked to damage usually a lower and upper value (to me using Cthulhu v7 : .22, 1D6 (E), Damage of 6 & .45, 1D10+2 (E), Damage of 12). You can use excel function to create a linear regression with one or more reference and the you'll just have to state the Kinetic energy and Diameter to found out the max Damage by Krupp & DeMarre Equation and using your game damage as reference (Cthulhu, BRP, RuneQuest, Openquest) anyone will be able to found their own tables of weapons for LRN (2) and FMJ (3) bullets.

(1) http://www.argospress.com/jbt/Volume7/7-1-1.pdf
(2) LRN : Lead Round Nose
(3) FMJ : Full metal jacketed, usually with a lead core

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One thing that I think some people may be missing is the fact that accuracy/skill plays a larger part in the lethality of combat that the weapons used.  

Using special and critical successes are what make highly skilled combatants far more lethal than their less skilled brethren, regardless of the weapons being used.

http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/1868-special-success-query/

While having a LOT of weapons data is nice, the effects should basically come down to: Hit or Miss; If HIT is the target IMPAIRED or DEAD.  A non-Imparing hit is worthless and does not need to be modeled, whereas an Impairing hit has to show how much Impairment the target has (can they still fight?, can they still move?), and a Lethal hit is just that, and the target is dead, or dying and will be dead quickly.

-STS

Edited by sladethesniper
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3 hours ago, sladethesniper said:

While having a LOT of weapons data is nice, the effects should basically come down to: Hit or Miss; If HIT is the target IMPAIRED or DEAD.  A non-Imparing hit is worthless and does not need to be modeled, whereas an Impairing hit has to show how much Impairment the target has (can they still fight?, can they still move?), and a Lethal hit is just that, and the target is dead, or dying and will be dead quickly.

-STS

I'm not so sure this is accurate. While a hit that doesn't cause noticeable impairment immediately, it can over time (BRP aggravation). So I would say a non-impairing hit would still be important. If the PC doesn't (or can't) get it treated, it still might get them in the end. 

Impairment effects will vary depending upon the severity of the hit. This variance will be greater if the round cannot cause enough damage once the hit occurs; both skill and round capability factor into this. 

As to a Lethal hit, yes. But being an RPG you also have to factor in heroism. Will the character be able to respond in kind before they fade out? Has their equipment protected them enough that they can get off one more shot at their assailant? Will John Reese be able to knee cap the tactical squad and reach his target before he falls unconscious?

And even in the real world, the results in this regard would probably be a bit different from CQB vs. distance fighting, where you could have a bit more time to properly aim.

SDLeary 

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20 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I'm not so sure this is accurate. While a hit that doesn't cause noticeable impairment immediately, it can over time (BRP aggravation). So I would say a non-impairing hit would still be important. If the PC doesn't (or can't) get it treated, it still might get them in the end. 

Impairment effects will vary depending upon the severity of the hit. This variance will be greater if the round cannot cause enough damage once the hit occurs; both skill and round capability factor into this. 

As to a Lethal hit, yes. But being an RPG you also have to factor in heroism. Will the character be able to respond in kind before they fade out? Has their equipment protected them enough that they can get off one more shot at their assailant? Will John Reese be able to knee cap the tactical squad and reach his target before he falls unconscious?

And even in the real world, the results in this regard would probably be a bit different from CQB vs. distance fighting, where you could have a bit more time to properly aim.

SDLeary 

My reference to impairment is roughly analogous to "hit points".   How I model weapons damage in my games where players ask for more realism (pretty much only for my military gamers and my son):

Probability of Hit/Probability of Kill (pH/pK)
Probability of Hit is equal to the skill of the attacker as a percentage. (The normal skill in BRP).
Probability of Kill is equal to the chance that an attack will kill the target and is determined by the maximum damage a certain weapon can do divided by the hit points of the target. This will give a number that is converted to a percentage, and if that number or below is rolled on a d100, then the target is destroyed by that attack.
Example: a weapon that does 6d6 damage hits a target that has 300 Hit Points. 6 times 6 equals 36 divided by 300 equals .12 which equals 12 percent of a kill.
Roll a d100, if less than or equal to 12, then it is a kill. If the roll is 13 or higher, continue as normal. So the 6d6 becomes 33 damage (you rolled great) 300 Hit Points minus 33 equals 267 HP remaining. The next hit by this weapon against that target will be 6d6 vs 279 HP equals 36 divided by 279 equals .1348 which equals 13 percent of a kill. Therefore, as the target takes damage, the chance of a catastrophic kill increase.

Also, APPLY Damage Reduction or Stopping Power to the Max Damage of the weapon, so a SP of 25 vs a 6d6 weapon is 36-25=11 damage to be used Against the 300 HP target, NOT 36…otherwise armor would be pointless.

Always round down.

 

The "kill" may not actually be literally dead, but it does mean out of combat so if the GM wants they can merely be unconscious and seriously wounded.

It is an extra roll (to hit, probability of kill, if no kill, roll damage) and it makes the damage process longer (until you get some practice), BUT it does have the tendency to make combat faster as there end up being some insta-kills reducing combatants.

As for "heroism" in RPGs, I have never really bought into the special snowflake idea of PC characters.  The heroism, for me at least, is that the PC are choosing to do something that other people will not...the heroism is their choice to BE a hero and risk death or imprisonment in difficult situations as opposed to having more hit points or special powers. Granted, in old school D&D, it was more about home invasion and murder, so maybe their version of heroism is different that mine, since racially based stereotypes of who it ok to murder never really held much weight with me.

-STS
 

Edited by sladethesniper
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14 hours ago, sladethesniper said:

Probability of Hit/Probability of Kill (pH/pK)
Probability of Hit is equal to the skill of the attacker as a percentage. (The normal skill in BRP).
Probability of Kill is equal to the chance that an attack will kill the target and is determined by the maximum damage a certain weapon can do divided by the hit points of the target. This will give a number that is converted to a percentage, and if that number or below is rolled on a d100, then the target is destroyed by that attack.

The "kill" may not actually be literally dead, but it does mean out of combat so if the GM wants they can merely be unconscious and seriously wounded.

I don't know how you use you pK but a probability to kill which don't kill but impaired is strange. Because there are a lot more simpler method and your feel awfully wrong :
-First for the simpler KO: Using personally one of the oldest (RQ III) and last BasiC based (Cthulhu v7), impairment or K.O is made by special effects or losing more than half total HP (CoC v7) or HP localisation (torso or head : 5HP max for a 12HP person). why an extra roll ?
-Secondly, as you state pK = Max.damage / Hit.Points, If take a .22 derringer (1D6 (E)) versus shoggoth (Locomotive size at 60HP) you get a pK = 12/60 = 20% or 10% without Empaling. Any House-rule may not work in any case but having 10% of luck to kill-neutralize a Shoggoth / elephant size with a .22 Derringer is too much extreme.

The main reason of the thread is to have realist Damage, not to shabby nor too extreme ... without having any need for extra rules to correct unrealism effects.

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On 12/24/2016 at 6:06 PM, sladethesniper said:

One thing that I think some people may be missing is the fact that accuracy/skill plays a larger part in the lethality of combat that the weapons used.  

YES!

That is precisely what my problem with how firearms are handled in BRP and in most other RPGs. It becomes more a matter of the bullet used as opposed to the skill of the marksman. Which is pretty much the opposite of how it works in real life. Most experts will tell you that someone who is skilled and accurate is going to be more dangerous and deadly even with a relatively light round. 

 

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  • 6 months later...
On 29.12.2016 at 4:21 PM, Atgxtg said:

YES!

That is precisely what my problem with how firearms are handled in BRP and in most other RPGs. It becomes more a matter of the bullet used as opposed to the skill of the marksman. Which is pretty much the opposite of how it works in real life. Most experts will tell you that someone who is skilled and accurate is going to be more dangerous and deadly even with a relatively light round. 

 

Question is, how would one translate that into a game mechanic. By a game mechanic that increases damage based on how much you rolled under the effective skill percentage, perhaps?

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17 hours ago, Thot said:

Question is, how would one translate that into a game mechanic. By a game mechanic that increases damage based on how much you rolled under the effective skill percentage, perhaps?

I've seen other systems where damage is done similarly to that - weapons tend to do a static damage number that is multiplied by your degrees of success.

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