The Little Suns

[Mankcam]

I always presumed Elmal was just Yelm worshiped by Theylans rather than Pelorians...

[Tindalos]

13 minutes ago, mikkling said:

Are you saying that the few worshippers of the Sun of Life/the Good Sun/the Friendly Sun in the Sartarite Orlanth clans acknowledge and worship Yelm, the Tyrant Emperor -- the same one that the Red Emperor incarnates? 

 

What's actually the problem with Elmal being his own god? He never went to Hell, and when Orlanth returned, Elmal got the sacred torch and rose up in the sky as the Sun of Life. A weaker Sun than Yelm was, but a warm, fiery Sun nonetheless.

 

Given that according to the guide, "Most Orlanthi say the Sun is Elmal, a thane of Orlanth," (Pg 646) the followers of the Good Sun/Sun of Life/Friendly Sun would still be Elmali.

It's just that the Orlanthi recognise that the Sun got back its lifegiving powers when Yelm came back to life and acknowledge Orlanth. Until then it was the sun of the Great Darkness, on top of Kero Fin. But now Elmal's father has returned, Elmal can use his powers (The Torch of Life) for Orlanth's benefit.

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tindalos

[Jeff]

There are many cults to what they consider the same entity. Yelm, Yu-Kargzant, etc., all are the returned Sun. Elmal, Yelmalio, Kargzant, etc., all are the Little Sun in the Darkness. The Little Sun was worshiped by the Vingkotlings and their heirs throughout the Darkness. He provided them light when there was none. In the First Council, some folk worshiped the returned Sun, but during the High Council period, this was widely recognized as Yelm. Those not capable of reaching Yelm worshiped Antirius or other Little Sun gods, or parts of Yelm (like Bijiif, or sons of Yelm, or even the emperor). Later, most followers of the Little Sun supported the Broken Council; those that did not are the Elmal cult.

In the Second Age, the mainstream Little Sun cult was supported by the EWF. They built Sun Dome temples throughout their empire, from Prax to Fronela. However, the Elmal cult stubbornly persisted amongst the Hendriki. After the Dragonkill, what is now Sartar was settled by folk who called the Little Sun Elmal. However, as described in KoS, when the Lunar Empire came into contact with these people, the problem of Yelm reasserted itself. Rather than have Elmal proven to be a barbarian name for Yelm, Monrogh showed that Elmal is Yelmalio. Most Elmal cultists agreed, and the Yelmalio cult is bigger than the Elmal cult ever was in Sartar. And it is independent of the Emperor.

The Red Emperor is the head of the Yelm cult - the Highest Priest. The Red Emperor is villainous. However, according to the Orlanthi, Yelm made peace with Orlanth, and he is now the constant god in the sky, who is born each morning, rises to the sky, then falls and dies each night. He is invoked in rituals going back to the Dawn Age, but has little cult.  The Red Emperor, no doubt because of his evil Chaotic mother, breaks the peace between Orlanth and Yelm and seeks a new Gods War. What an awful demigod!
 

[Jeff]

Most Orlanthi would say, the Sun (both Little and Returned) is Elmal. But they would also agree that Yelm is the Sun. Most would even say that Yelmalio is the same god as Elmal, but Elmal serves Orlanth and Yelmalio does not. And they would see absolutely no contradiction there.

[MOB]

Cold = “compared to the Golden Age Sun”

[mikkling]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Most Orlanthi would say, the Sun (both Little and Returned) is Elmal. But they would also agree that Yelm is the Sun. Most would even say that Yelmalio is the same god as Elmal, but Elmal serves Orlanth and Yelmalio does not. And they would see absolutely no contradiction there.

Good.

So, Monrogh proved the connection between Yelmalio and Elmal -- they were both Lights in the Darkness, after all -- and a lot of the Elmalites went with him, eschewing worship of Orlanth. And the few remaining Elmal worshippers among the Orlanthi stubbornly maintain that Elmal, Orlanth's thane, holds the Torch of Life, and that Yelm is still the Tyrant Sun, worthy of no worship. 

I'm happy with this.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, mikkling said:

Good.

So, Monrogh proved the connection between Yelmalio and Elmal -- they were both Lights in the Darkness, after all -- and a lot of the Elmalites went with him, eschewing worship of Orlanth. And the few remaining Elmal worshippers among the Orlanthi stubbornly maintain that Elmal, Orlanth's thane, holds the Torch of Life, and that Yelm is still the Tyrant Sun, worthy of no worship. 

I'm happy with this.

The only corrections I'd make to this are: and "the great majority of Elmalites went with him, eschewing worship of Orlanth." 

And "that Yelm is unworthy of worship."

[mikkling]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The only corrections I'd make to this are: and "the great majority of Elmalites went with him, eschewing worship of Orlanth." 

Even if ALL of the Elmalites went with Monrogh, I'd maintain that it was an Orlanthi 'all', not a Yelmic 'all'. 

[Tindalos]

Just now, mikkling said:

Even if ALL of the Elmalites went with Monrogh, I'd maintain that it was an Orlanthi 'all', not a Yelmic 'all'. 

I'm not sure it's even that much. The numbers given in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is 1000 Elmali to 3000 Yelmalians.

I imagine the Sun Domers like to think of themselves as those who are Right, and the Elmali are just those who were left.

[Richard S.]

On the topic of Elmal being a little sun: If he is, then how can his worshippers use the power of fire?

[Tindalos]

As Jeff said, the Cold Sun is just cold compared to the sun of the Golden Age. It's weaker but that doesn't mean freezing.

After all, the sun during the winter may not be as warm as it is in the summer, but it certainly helps get rid of the chill of a winter's night.

[JonL]

52 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

On the topic of Elmal being a little sun: If he is, then how can his worshippers use the power of fire?

Because when Orlanth and Elmal work together at The Hill of Gold, Zorak Zoran is not able to steal Elmal's fire. 

[Richard S.]

Another question: If all little suns are aspects of one god of Lightfore, do they all have the same runes of Sky and Truth?

[M Helsdon]

10 hours ago, mikkling said:

If I'm getting this correctly, the Many Suns are just two.

I suspect it depends on how many of Yelm's Eight Sons were/are classed as among the Many Suns? And how many 'masks' they each wear in different human cultures? And were there really eight?

Looking on the older Glorantha site, there's this intriguing image... Obviously, some of those 'Sons' have fallen or gone away in a variety of ways. And whilst the Runes given are Dara Happan, the Runes associated usually with Elmal, Yelmalio, Khargzant are derived from those popularized by the God Learners (and again, human constructs attempting to define the divine).

I suspect that similarities and differences between the Theyalan and Dara Happan languages are also a factor (human languages of course) because 'elm' seems to be a root meaning 'sun' in both languages, prefixed with 'y/yu' in Dara Happan (and Pentan), meaning 'god'. Then we have the further complication that some (human) sources claim the true sun only reappeared with the Sunstop?

All this is basically unknowable, because all the sources we have are almost entirely human in origin, and the humans in Glorantha are really beings in a post-apocalyptic setting, surrounded by the ruins of the civilization of greater entities, and are the descendants of a haphazard and small human population that survived into Time, with only a limited understanding of the pre-Time world?

Additional: I wonder if mythologies of the same divine entity diverge because each cult has only a part of the story. It's like reading fragments of the Epic of Gilgamesh: one fragment says the gods sent Enkidu to fight with Gilgamesh (and is obviously his enemy) but another tells us they became good friends, and yet another tells us that Gilgamesh mourns Enkidu when he dies. All the fragments are true. So there are some Little Sun cults where the Little Sun is Orlanth's enemy, another where they are allies...

Edited February 9, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that similarities and differences between the Theyalan and Dara Happan languages are also a factor (human languages of course) because 'elm' seems to be a root meaning 'sun' in both languages, prefixed with 'y/yu' in Dara Happan (and Pentan), meaning 'god'. Then we have the further complication that some (human) sources claim the true sun only reappeared with the Sunstop?

Just wanting to mention that it seems that Yu actually means Imperial, as in Imperial Kargzant/Yu-Kargzant. Likewise, Yuth/Yuthu-, from Yuthuppa and Yuthubars, likely means "Imperial Spirit," and thus god.

[M Helsdon]

50 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Just wanting to mention that it seems that Yu actually means Imperial, as in Imperial Kargzant/Yu-Kargzant. Likewise, Yuth/Yuthu-, from Yuthuppa and Yuthubars, likely means "Imperial Spirit," and thus god.

Based on the names of Yuthubars (City of God) and Yuthuppa (Ship of God) in The Glorious Reascent of Yelm, it appears to mean 'god'; any imperial connotations would be down to later language drift.

It may of interest that Kargzant appears to be identifiable as Reladivus, and there's a curious correspondence between that name and other horse deities, such as Redaylda the horse-riding goddess of the Orlanthi... And then there's the association of horses for Kargzant, Yelmalio, Elmal...

Edited February 9, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Mankcam]

Is the Elmal cult exclusive like Yelm is with Darra Happan nobility, or does it play a martial/guardian role like Yelmalio?

Or is it more available to the commoner, fufilling a similar function to the Lodril cult in Peloria?

Also what regions do the Elmali still have a presence amongst Theylans - Tarsh, for instance, or Pavis/Prax, perhaps?

[Richard S.]

The Elmal cult has a fairly strong presence in Sartar, namely around Runegate I think, and he serves the role of a combat deity like Yelmalio, though a bit less formalized and focusing more on cavalry and guards. Some clans replace the worship of Orlanth with worship of Elmal, and I think that someone once said that Elmali clan chieftains tend to eventually turn into more emperor-esque figures, with the rank being hereditary.

[Mark Mohrfield]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Is the Elmal cult exclusive like Yelm is with Darra Happan nobility, or does it play a martial/guardian role like Yelmalio?

Or is it more available to the commoner, fufilling a similar function to the Lodril cult in Peloria?

Also what regions do the Elmali still have a presence amongst Theylans - Tarsh, for instance, or Pavis/Prax, perhaps?

According to Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes there is no requirement that initiates be nobles, and it is certainly martial. They are obligated to provide the Star Watch, i.e. night patrols.

Pavis: Gateway to Danger states "the cult of Elmal is non-existent in the area due to the strength (and hostility) of the cult of Yelmalio."

I imagine that Elmal is somewhat more common among the Pol-Joni than it is in Sartar, due to the importance of their horses.

 

[Pentallion]

My understanding may take some explaining.  consider the end of the Windstop when Orlanth was Dead.  Jeff told a tale of Prax where I forget if it was Solanthus or Invictus or someone else, it really doesn't matter who to my point, but this Sun Dome Hero saved Kinope from Daga and ended the Windstop.  Except, of course, that alone didn't end the Windstop.  As Jeff explains, all over the area, people are fighting the I Fought, We Won war and each of them is in effect ending the Windstop.  That's how the mystical energies of Glorantha work.  All these heroquests come together and the effect is to end the Windstop.

If I were a God Learner, I could thus wrongly assume that all these heroes did the same thing and thus are avatars of the same hero.  Even though each of them has a unique individual tale (myth).  I believe that this is the very mistake made by the God Learners in fact.

When Yelm died, many Small Suns kept the light alive in various parts of the world.  Each carrying out their own hero quest.  That they share many commonalities only makes sense.  Afterall, it is cold now, Yelm is gone and these are smaller lights.  So they have less heat than the great Fire Spirit had.  They fight similar battles - much like those who quest to stop the Windstop - because that's the nature of their quest.  But they are not all avatars of Lightfore.  That's the mistake the God Learners made.

See, this is why the God Learners believed they could swap fertility goddesses.  They believed each goddess was just a version of the same goddess.  They were wrong.  Each was distinct.  Each therefore had unique powers.  And thus the swap failed.  And they didn't perceive why because they didn't perceive the individuality of each goddess.

Same with Yelm, Elmal, etc.  They are each unique heroquestors who filled the same role of providing light in the darkness throughout Glorantha.  So of course, they seem to be the same person but of course, each is unique because each was a different individual.  Each one's story is his own.

Lightfore, by that reasoning, simply becomes that which is shared by each of them.  Lightfore is the star that represents those who kept the light in the darkness.  One might say Lightfore is home to the Little Suns.  But to say all of them are Lightfore in different guises would be wrong, IMO.  That would be God Learnerish and also the Lunar illusion of masks.  Place a Lightfore mask over each of them, they are Lightfore.  But that is Lunar illusion.  Underneath the masks are Yelmalio, Elmal, etc.  each unique.  none Lightfore. 

[Mark Mohrfield]

On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:57 AM, Richard S. said:

On the topic of Elmal being a little sun: If he is, then how can his worshippers use the power of fire?

Perhaps the myth about Orlanth tossing Elmal that torch at the Dawn represents the return of his fire powers?

[M Helsdon]

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Lightfore, by that reasoning, simply becomes that which is shared by each of them.  Lightfore is the star that represents those who kept the light in the darkness.  One might say Lightfore is home to the Little Suns.  But to say all of them are Lightfore in different guises would be wrong, IMO.  That would be God Learnerish and also the Lunar illusion of masks.  Place a Lightfore mask over each of them, they are Lightfore.  But that is Lunar illusion.  Underneath the masks are Yelmalio, Elmal, etc.  each unique.  none Lightfore. 

I recall that somewhere, sometime, Greg said 'There are fewer gods than you think there are.'

My assumption is that except where cultures rub up against each other, mythologically or physically, they are all viewing the gods or a subset of the gods through their own cultural filter. Most theistic cultures seem to have an Elemental bias, but with some crossover between Elemental tribes. Often this cultural lens is such that what may or may not be the same deity appears significantly different.

There is no absolute Truth in mortal Glorantha as the Goddess of Truth resides far from the mortal world, with Dayzatar in his sky-realm, (perhaps), it is impossible for us to know the truth of the matter, any more than any mortal in Glorantha can know. Maybe Jeff and Greg know...

This well defined doubt and uncertainty makes the setting more real, because terrestrial mythology is a mess of conflicting and contradictory sources, and Glorantha being a puzzle we can never solve adds to its attraction... Or, I may be entirely in error.

Edited February 10, 2017 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

IMG, this comes down to a matter of perspective.

Different nations, peoples, families, and tribes will have gods with differing names but similar attributes.

Are these the same gods wearing different masks, or different gods fulfilling the same archetype?

Ultimately, it makes little difference. Knowledge priests will debate it, perform Truth contests, and find evidence for both sides. And still life goes on.

The crops get harvested the same, no matter the name they use.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There is no absolute Truth in mortal Glorantha as the Goddess of Truth resides far from the mortal world, with Dayzatar in his sky-realm, (perhaps), it is impossible for us to know the truth of the matter, any more than any mortal in Glorantha can know. Maybe Jeff and Greg know...

If I recall correctly, Anaxial's roster had a myth where the boggles broke her staff, and that's why no one can know the truth of anything anymore.

[Corvantir]

"The Yelmalions say Elmal and Yelmalio are the same god. The Elmalis say Elmal is not Yelmalio. And both are right."

I don't remember where I have read something like that, maybe on the former Glorantha website, but I must admit it puzzled me for a while. I have decided not to torture my head any more: Yelmalio and Elmal are the same god. Yelmalions and Elmalis worship this god from a different point of view and thus in a different way. To the eyes of the Yelmalions, Elmalis are fools refusing to admit the Truth (same god) and refusing to abandon their distateful ways. To the eyes of the Elmalis, Yelmalions are haughty traitors refusing to admit the Truth (different gods). Each side thinks it knows the Real Truth but no one actually does as Elmal and Yelmalio are both an aspect of the same god that is Yelmalio and that is also Elmal. To sum up, this god is not yelmalio only or Elmal only, he is both Elmal and Yelmalio. The worshippers of this god don't know that and call him either Yelmalio or Elmal according to the teachings of their respective priests. To the Sun Dome Temple in Prax, I think that the Elmalis are strangers and are thus treated with contempt, but with an additional hint of distate because they are worshipping a debased version of Yelmalio.

But in the end I am not sure it matters at the gaming table as both cults are described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and Pavis: Gateway to Adventure and because everybody is a stranger to the eyes of the Sun Dome Templars in Prax, even the sun Dome Templars from Dragonpass are some kind of strangers to them.  

I am 100% sure that what is preceding is contradicting at least a hundred things written about Elmal and Yelmalio but it allows me to keep my sanity. I like to keep it simple as Glorantha is an engaging and vibrant world, that can even be daunting... sometimes.  

Edited February 11, 2017 by Corvantir