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Disruption


Noita

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RQ2, 3 and 4 all say

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This spell damages the target’s body

while this implies something that has a body, I've always ruled that it can work on anything. The main problem then comes down to How many hit points does the rope have. As a mainly HeroQuest GM it's not a problem for me as anyone casting a disruption at a normal rope would break it for dramatic effect, and a thick ships rope maybe 2 disruptions are needed. However I can see crunchy RQ players wanting values and I'd like to avoid that. The rope diameter/hp table would be tedious :-)

Basically you can cast it at anything with hitpoints and stuff that doesn't at your own risk :-)

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1) I always ruled out only affected living things (incl undead) because it disrupted their life/animating forces....this also then explained why it ignored armor.  Giving players the ability to unerringly hit/damage anything out to range is WAY overpowered.

2) how to stop them casting? Yes, the methods in Glorantha to de-power someone with enchanted tattoos can be gruesome.  To avid that too much, we said that spells require clearly vocalized (even if very quiet) verbal and usually somatic motions.  Thus, a caster could usually be neutralized by gagging /binding.  Incidentally, this made fetches, etc more powerful because they could often cast the users spells elsewhere.

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It is only supposed to affect living things, or at least things that have Magic Points to resist with, since you have to overcome the target's MPs to get it to work. . I believe this was covered under an old issue of Wryms Footnotes.

 

If you allow it to be used otherwise, then it's up to you to deal with the consequences, and there could be some beauts-especially if the group does mass disruptions. Blast down doors (or maybe just the hinges), sink ships. whatever. It's all pretty ease when you can bypass the armor points. I doubt there is much in the way of locks that have more than 3 hp. 

If I were to allow disrupt to work on objects I'd apply the object's innate armor points (or at the least add them to the resistant value against the spell). 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I know that the RQ2/Classic description says that it disrupts the molecules of the target. To me this means that it doesn't destroy them, just rearanges them, causing extreme pain.

Edited by Richard S.
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3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It is only supposed to affect living things, or at least things that have Magic Points to resist with, since you have to overcome the target's MPs to get it to work. . I believe this was covered under an old issue of Wryms Footnotes.

 

If you allow it to be used otherwise, then it's up to you to deal with the consequences, and there could be some beauts-especially if the group does mass disruptions. Blast down doors (or maybe just the hinges), sink ships. whatever. It's all pretty ease when you can bypass the armor points. I doubt there is much in the way of locks that have more than 3 hp. 

If I were to allow disrupt to work on objects I'd apply the object's innate armor points (or at the least add them to the resistant value against the spell). 

There's certainly a place for a "do damage at range" spell, but due to it's greater utility, I'd probably say it does only 1 damage per mp, and you have to hit (DEX x 5), with called shots possible.  Thus someone could shoot a lock, but you'd get the penalties for small targets.

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Yeah, it would need some sort of restrictions, since it could be far to easy to exploit. I could see an army taking down a fortification with a bunch of disrupts (A thousand troops, each casting 1 disrupt is going to average 1900 points of damage. Through armor, that would take out three or four battleships, or a dozen modem tanks, certainly enough to knock a castle down to it's foundation, causinhg who knows what sort of carnage among the enemy. And the army could fire off a second round of disrupts later on in the round.

 

Talk about a game changer. 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Disruption has a range of a few metres. A tank can kill people on the horizon. A battleship can explode cities from over the horizon. I don't think its that much of a game change. 

Generally, disruption etc is often useful at shorter range than missile weapons, and interferes with mundane tactics (eg you can't set yourself up to withstand a charge, and cast a spell or two at the same time. Its not that big a game change - unless you have powerful magicians to perform tricks to make it so, like assembling hundreds of spirits within the enemies camp. 

But I've always treated it was working on living (or undead) beings in any case. There are spells that effect non-living things (Crack, for example) but I've never considered Disruption to be one of them. Lots of Sorcery works against non-living matter, though, which is part of sorcerys competitive advantage vs other forms of magic. 

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4 hours ago, davecake said:

Disruption has a range of a few metres.

RQ2 80m, RQ3 & RQ4 50m. But basically the same point, not a game changer.

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

A thousand troops, each casting 1 disrupt is going to average 1900 points of damage.

As its POW vs POW, assuming an average POW of 12 vs 12 only 50% is going to get through. The average of a D3 is 1.5, so 1000 x 1.5 x .5 = 750. If they add POW to the casting that will of course increase the chance of it going through. This kind of coordinated magic is only seen in the Hero Wars with specialist groups like the Lunar Collage of Magic and Sartar's Magical units.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

There are spells that effect non-living things (Crack, for example)

Crack is a 1 point Thed Rune spell, longer range (160m) and a much more extreme result.

I think Disrupt is very weak against non-living items, and in my games can be used against anything.

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Yes, 50 m is less than the range of most missile weapons, and approximately the same same as thrown weapon and charging range. So a Disruption spell at best substitutes for a ranged weapon attack or two. I think most Gloranthan infantry have weighed up the relative merits and decided a javelin throw (or similar) is more value than Disruption spell in closing with the enemy. 

Now, Demoralise or Befuddle is a different story. They could potentially have a big effect. But I would guess that that is exactly the sort of effect that wyters and regimental spirits are good at defending against. 

For the relatively high cost of spells like Crack implies that they do something Disrupt doesn't. But I can see the counter argument. Probably a point worth clarifying in the description of Disruption in the new RQ rules, I guess? 

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1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I think Disrupt is very weak against non-living items, and in my games can be used against anything.

If disruption were working on non-living items, it would not by-pass armor but break it instead.

Wind on the Steppes, role playing among the steppe Nomads. The  running campaign and the blog

 

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24 minutes ago, Zit said:

If disruption were working on non-living items, it would not by-pass armor but break it instead.

That assumes it's power is straight line. I'd say you can manifest it where you want. Thus you could target the armour or the person, or the person behind.

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

RQ2 80m, RQ3 & RQ4 50m. But basically the same point, not a game changer.

Sure it is, you can walk right up to a castle. it isn't going anywhere. A bunch of guys with disrupts are going to be able to take down the main gate much faster than they would with a battering ram. And they don't even have to get as close to do it. Game changer.

And troops can get within striking distance of a tank or battleship fairly easily. Heck, just surrender and walk up. Game changer.

Quote

As its POW vs POW, assuming an average POW of 12 vs 12 only 50% is going to get through. The average of a D3 is 1.5, so 1000 x 1.5 x .5 = 750. If they add POW to the casting that will of course increase the chance of it going through. This kind of coordinated magic is only seen in the Hero Wars with specialist groups like the Lunar Collage of Magic and Sartar's Magical units.

Most inanimate object don't have a POW score, so the POW vs. POW thing isn't going to be an issue. So Game changer.

Quote

Crack is a 1 point Thed Rune spell, longer range (160m) and a much more extreme result.

Yes,it's supposed to be. It's a Rune Spell. 

Quote

I think Disrupt is very weak against non-living items, and in my games can be used against anything.

I think you're wrong. A single disrupt can ruin most handheld items, if you allow the spell to be used on objects. A group could take out a guard's weapon before the guard gets an chance to use it. Game changer.

And a group of characters using disrupts can take down bigger objects fairly quickly for only a minor cost in magic points. It's the ability to bypass armor that makes the spell so useful against objects. Big game changer. 

The thing is, allowing disrupt to work against objects gives the characters ways to quickly damage things that they otherwise wouldn't be able to damage, or would take a long time to do so. 

Edited by Atgxtg
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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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5 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, 50 m is less than the range of most missile weapons, and approximately the same same as thrown weapon and charging range. So a Disruption spell at best substitutes for a ranged weapon attack or two. I think most Gloranthan infantry have weighed up the relative merits and decided a javelin throw (or similar) is more value than Disruption spell in closing with the enemy. 

Sure. The problem here is with the "fall out" of someone letting disrupt work against objects. It makes the spell a cheap and easy way to destroy small objects, and allows a group to gang up on a bigger tough object with massed disrupts. Basically disrupts bypass armor and "stack"  their damage against the object's hit points. 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Now, Demoralise or Befuddle is a different story. They could potentially have a big effect. But I would guess that that is exactly the sort of effect that wyters and regimental spirits are good at defending against. 

Yeah. I'm not arguing that Disrupt is overpowering, it isn't. What I'm saying is that by allowing it to work against non-living objects it changes things in the game.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

For the relatively high cost of spells like Crack implies that they do something Disrupt doesn't. But I can see the counter argument. Probably a point worth clarifying in the description of Disruption in the new RQ rules, I guess? 

It's already been clarified (back in the RQ2 days) that it works against the living. The POW vs. POW roll should help clear things up, too. 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Disruption : My players favorites spirit spell which bypass any physical resistance and armor. To explain disruption effects, I state it was a "Tear Muscle" like effect or tell a player taht the spell was a Piranha spirit that can chew a leg behind an armor. In this comparison, the spell can be used on anything. For a rope, the is rope cuting spell in Land of Ninja which is based on Disruption ...

As master, I use it to destroy the leather strap of heavy armor thus render them useless. Also to Neutralize any big spell incoming (since any damage trigger a INT x2 roll to not fail a spell), it's the best counter against >10MP spells. Disruption work perfectly to disarm any bow, crossbow or simple traps without being spotted unlike javelins or others weapon.

As a gloranthian, I think there is a myriad of spirit, thus limitating Disruption to one- adamant rule is stupid unless you play a Dwarf because dwarf stick to the rules explained to them. For I-stick-to-the-Rules-fans (which I respect !) most objects in glorantha have at least 3 Armor points (a dagger is 6PA) and disruption is like a stiletto or a punch (1D3 damage).

As house-rule, I never ask for POW vs POW rolls because it's stuck at 1D3 damage for 4SR (You cannot have disruption 2 or more, so it's enough nerfed). Like in RQ boardgame, I think Disruption is a physical spell -like fireball or guns- which can be stop by physical mean only -Like a Giant natural armor-. I only make POW Rolls for spiritual spell like Demoralise, Befuddle or any "mental state modifier" spell.

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17 minutes ago, D said:

When I asked Iskallor if my character could use disrupt on rope, I thought it would be an easy yes/no answer :)

I only asked him as I wasn't in a position to check the rule book when I posted.

This I what hapens when you give a bunch of wannabe Godlearners a question.

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12 hours ago, David Scott said:

As its POW vs POW, assuming an average POW of 12 vs 12 only 50% is going to get through. The average of a D3 is 1.5, so 1000 x 1.5 x .5 = 750. If they add POW to the casting that will of course increase the chance of it going through.

The average of a D3 is actually 2.

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15 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, 50 m is less than the range of most missile weapons, and approximately the same same as thrown weapon and charging range. So a Disruption spell at best substitutes for a ranged weapon attack or two. I think most Gloranthan infantry have weighed up the relative merits and decided a javelin throw (or similar) is more value than Disruption spell in closing with the enemy. 

Now, Demoralise or Befuddle is a different story. They could potentially have a big effect. But I would guess that that is exactly the sort of effect that wyters and regimental spirits are good at defending against. 

For the relatively high cost of spells like Crack implies that they do something Disrupt doesn't. But I can see the counter argument. Probably a point worth clarifying in the description of Disruption in the new RQ rules, I guess? 

I like this comparison, let's pursue the math?

Javelineer with 60% skill, vs POW12 disrupt-caster.  Both have 4 points of armor (they're ready for battle).

The caster has a 60% chance to succeed, a 50% to overcome the target to do an average of 2 points ignoring armor a net 30% of his casts.

Javelin does d8 or average of 4.5.  With a 60% skill, that means that they have a 3% to do crit for double that (9) ignoring armor, another 9% to do 9-armor, and 48% more to do 4.5-armor.  I'm arbitrarily adding a -1 damage for 2% of the strikes to recognize that the javelin has a chance to fumble, while the spell has no effective fumble consequence.

It turns out that the javelin is a far better damage dealer up until the target has 5 points of armor, then they're about even, with disrupt pulling ahead at 6 points on the target.

Now, taking into account that the caster only has that 60% chance to cast without armor on, and the attractiveness of tossing spells around in a fight becomes less attractive generally.

Edited by styopa
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Its not just that, because combat isn't just about the average but also the extremes, and the effects. That 1d3 will essentially never incapacitate an enemy soldier. And two disruptions would still have a very small chance. Whereas a critical almost always will incapacitate an enemy, a max damage roll for a Javelin has a reasonable chance - and an impale can effectively hinder an enemy significantly *even if parried* (a javelin impale on a shield makes the shield unwieldy and ineffective). 

Javelins are  a much better tactic, lesser thrown weapons still a pretty good option. Disruption isn't bad, but its not a big game changer IMO. Now, Demoralise or Befuddle might be....

 

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This actually raises another issue I've seen 'round various fora, for ages ...

In a world where magic reliably works, why are ancient-tech "fortresses" still a thing?  When you can land an elite-combat squad at a gatehouse (fly, teleport, magic-stealth, etc) and control it long enough for your army to pour in through the gate, why do you still have castles?

To bring it back to an example by @Atgxtg above:  if your battering-ram squad all had "Disruption" -- why do they even have a battering-ram???  30 soldiers (15 on each side of the ram) just drop the damned thing and Disrupt instead (average 60HP damage), then charge (unencumbered by the ram) and hold the gate for long enough for the next wave to arrive.

... etc ...

("Disruption" isn't IMHO a "game-changer" in 1v1 combat, but (as noted) the tactical use really could be...)

Edited by g33k

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