The Pavis Plan

[Byll]

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Becoming the new Son of Pavis is a wide open opportunity for anyone who has the skills.  The moment you do that, so many doors open for you, and everyone wants to be your friend, (except for the trolls).  And while Pavis the deity may be "stuck", the new Son of Pavis has a decidedly free hand to play.  Certainly the position is politically fraught in many ways, but it is if anything more interesting for that, and the perfect opportunity for a frontier opportunist.  Cliches like "get rich quick", "big fish in a small pond" etc.  spring to mind.

"Live fast - die young"...

[KeithN]

I had a lot of fun with a campaign set during the 830's with Lord Pavis as the patron of the player characters, who were trouble shooters for the new settlement. The idea in the back of my mind was always that Pavis was creating a new universe within the walls - with new creation myths, and new elementals (similar to the new Lunar elementals) The Heroes reenacted some myths which were slightly different to the originals to reflect the new world. They escorted a cradle downriver and it turns out, in my Glorantha, that Thog the Giant (who was a baby on the cradle the PC heroes escorted to Hell) was the son of Lord Pavis and therefore a legitimate heir of the City. 

 

[soltakss]

My Pavic/Praxian Campaign draws heavily on Ian Thomson's stuff.

Pavis tried to unite the elemental forces in a City of Harmony.

In my campaign, he was already part human, part Aldryami, one of his daughters was part-Mostali, in my campaign another daughter was part-troll, but she was betrayed by the River Voices of that time and imprisoned in Hell. I have a daughter of Pavis trapped in the Puzzle Canal, part mermaid, but the PCs haven't found her yet. So, in my campaign, Pavis united Earth, Water and Darkness through mating. I doubt if he mated with a minotaur, he could have intended to mate with an Agimori, so he doesn't have Air/Storm or Fire descendents. Again in my campaign, he went to the Green Age to bring back more powers of Harmony, but was trapped there, again betrayed by one of the River Voices of the time. The people of Pavis used the Darkness link to call the Trolls to help them but were betrayed when the trolls took over. 

However, this is definitely a case where my Glorantha varies.

[Byll]

I think any Plan which relates to Earth, Stasis, Harmony and sentient dextrous mortals can reasonably be attributed to Pavis, whether it is a complete, partial or potential pending failure. In my fevered imagination old families in Nochet use the phrase "Are you a friend of Lord Pavis?" as one of their euphemisms meaning "You are neglecting your responsibility to keep the intoxicants/narcotics circulating amongst the company" with the implication "what's up with you?"

[David Scott]

22 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, only the most noob Issaries merchants (BV springs to mind) would ever go to Prax for fear of having to become Desert Trackers.

I think that it is likely a calling for the Garzeen faction. As Theism is about being your god, fulfilling one of your gods goals is a great thing to do.

[David Scott]

On 03/03/2017 at 11:47 AM, mikkling said:

This is interesting. So, stacking assumptions on each other here, can we assume that Pavis' plan to become or create the Original Man is connected to some idea of a Green Age "humanist" Utopia?

I'm not so sure about that. Since Ian's publications our knowledge of Pavis has moved along culminating in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure. The main difference is that we know more about who Pavis was and what his magic was about. The emphasis has moved away from the RQ2 cult:

Quote

The Runes most closely associated with him are Earth, Stasis, Harmony, and Man.

 To a RQ3 City cult, to a sorcery cult in HeroQuest based around the Man Rune and a few other Grimoires.

Also we have more info on the Green Age with the publication of the Guide: The Green Age was part of the Golden Age, starting when the Plant rune was introduced, then the Beast rune, finally the Man rune and Grandfather mortal appeared. This was before the young gods appeared, so Storm Bull had not arrived with his sons yet. This phase of the Green Age would appear to be some kind of Utopia, but I'm unsure how it could be brought into the middle world given for example that Storm Bull hangs in the sky nearby. That's why I think it's more about control over all the devolved forms through sorcerous means.

 

[Darius West]

On 3/5/2017 at 2:32 AM, David Scott said:

I think that it is likely a calling for the Garzeen faction. As Theism is about being your god, fulfilling one of your gods goals is a great thing to do.

Yes, martyrdom is wonderful but it doesn't pay your widow's bills.

[Akhôrahil]

On 2017-03-02 at 10:19 PM, David Scott said:

Im pretty sure this is part of Ian Thompson's Pavis epic fan work:

Vol. 1: Pavis - A Man for All Seasons (part of ‘Ye Booke of Tentacles 3’) - Tentacles Press – 2000
Vol. 2: The Masks of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2001
Vol. 2A: Tradetalk 8 ‘P&BR Special, Part 1’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 3: The Legacy of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2002
Vol. 3A: Tradetalk 9 ‘P&BR Special, Part 2’ – Tentacles Press
Vol. 4: The Shadows of Pavis - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 4A - Rough Guide to Pavis City (P&BR Companion Special Edition) - Tentacles Press, 2003
Vol. 5: Beyond Pavis: Adventures in the Zola Fel Valley – Tentacles Press, 2004

https://web.archive.org/web/20051025052945/http://www.pavis.nzrpga.org.nz/companion.html

Is this material available aywhere on the net? Most of the specific links are broken. Almost all is out of print at Tradetalk.de, and only the Tradetalk issues can be bought at Drivethroughrpg.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

The trade talk pdfs are here:

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/2629/RuneQuest-Gesellschaft-eV

 

[Steve]

@David Scott I think that @Akhôrahil was asking about the Masks of Pavis/Legacy of Pavis/etc books specifically, he already mentioned the Tradetalk issues being at DTRPG.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Steve

[David Scott]

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is this material available aywhere on the net? Most of the specific links are broken. Almost all is out of print at Tradetalk.de, and only the Tradetalk issues can be bought at Drivethroughrpg.

57 minutes ago, Steve said:

@David Scott I think that @Akhôrahil was asking about the Masks of Pavis/Legacy of Pavis/etc books specifically, he already mentioned the Tradetalk issues being at DTRPG.

oops missed that. The problems in sourcing this stuff is that it was printed for con fundraisers 15 or so years ago in small runs. The authors have moved on to other things, their websites gone. Those that have the material can't distribute it as it's copyright. It was never canon, so MD or Chaosium aren't going to reprint it. It was available online in bits and pieces then gathered together for printing so a lot of the sources are gone, and the Internet archive doesn't archive files only web pages, so the zips are gone. You ask over at:

https://plus.google.com/communities/113206786981749058345

if anyone knows of any sources.

[Rick Meints]

The whole "X of Pavis" series is out of print.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

The whole "X of Pavis" series is out of print.

And wildly non-canonical.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

The whole "X of Pavis" series is out of print.

 

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And wildly non-canonical.

... but interesting, eh?   

everybodysGWV !    Even Greg's, across time, as he Gregs himself ...  

Of course, canonical Glorantha is ALSO interesting!  But it's always fun (IMHO) to look at those alternate sources...

[Pentallion]

sometimes I think some things that aren't canonical should be.  This is one of those instances.  Ian's work was excellent.

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

sometimes I think some things that aren't canonical should be.  This is one of those instances.  Ian's work was excellent.

For me this is the special niche that fan publications fill. Yes, it's uncanonical but loads of people used it and enjoyed it it. uncanonical just means it won't mesh 100% with official published stuff. But that should never stop you from using it if you want to. The other problem with fan stuff from before the new HeroQuest Sartar book is that they didn't have access to Greg's notes, maps and ideas. We now have these and are able to move things along like never before.

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Pentallion said:

sometimes I think some things that aren't canonical should be.  This is one of those instances.  Ian's work was excellent.

This is what we have the word "fanon" for.

[MOB]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

For me this is the special niche that fan publications fill. Yes, it's uncanonical but loads of people used it and enjoyed it it. uncanonical just means it won't mesh 100% with official published stuff. But that should never stop you from using it if you want to. The other problem with fan stuff from before the new HeroQuest Sartar book is that they didn't have access to Greg's notes, maps and ideas. We now have these and are able to move things along like never before.

Couldn't agree more with all of this.

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

And wildly non-canonical.

 Couldn't agree more also!

On 3/4/2017 at 10:57 PM, soltakss said:

My Pavic/Praxian Campaign draws heavily on Ian Thomson's stuff.

Pavis tried to unite the elemental forces in a City of Harmony.

In my campaign, he was already part human, part Aldryami, one of his daughters was part-Mostali, in my campaign another daughter was part-troll, but she was betrayed by the River Voices of that time and imprisoned in Hell. I have a daughter of Pavis trapped in the Puzzle Canal, part mermaid, but the PCs haven't found her yet. So, in my campaign, Pavis united Earth, Water and Darkness through mating. I doubt if he mated with a minotaur, he could have intended to mate with an Agimori, so he doesn't have Air/Storm or Fire descendents. Again in my campaign, he went to the Green Age to bring back more powers of Harmony, but was trapped there, again betrayed by one of the River Voices of the time. The people of Pavis used the Darkness link to call the Trolls to help them but were betrayed when the trolls took over. 

However, this is definitely a case where my Glorantha varies.

YGMV is a well-enshrined principle, and that's perfectly fine! 

Edited March 10, 2017 by MOB

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is what we have the word "fanon" for.

Yes, except I think it's a terrible word ?

[Noita]

On 3/9/2017 at 1:59 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Is this material available aywhere on the net? Most of the specific links are broken. Almost all is out of print at Tradetalk.de, and only the Tradetalk issues can be bought at Drivethroughrpg.

Ebay or asking on this and other forums. I've been searching for the one I am missing for ages, and missed a copy on Facebook by mere moments

[soltakss]

On 3/9/2017 at 3:47 PM, Jeff said:

And wildly non-canonical.

At the time, nothing was coming out for Glorantha, with nothing visible on the horizon. Ian kept Glorantha alive in many ways.

[Noita]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

At the time, nothing was coming out for Glorantha, with nothing visible on the horizon. Ian kept Glorantha alive in many ways.

Yeah I agree there. For me it will always be my Glorantha. 

[Darius West]

On 3/4/2017 at 10:57 PM, soltakss said:

In my campaign, he was already part human, part Aldryami, one of his daughters was part-Mostali, in my campaign another daughter was part-troll, but she was betrayed by the River Voices of that time and imprisoned in Hell. I have a daughter of Pavis trapped in the Puzzle Canal, part mermaid, but the PCs haven't found her yet. So, in my campaign, Pavis united Earth, Water and Darkness through mating. I doubt if he mated with a minotaur, he could have intended to mate with an Agimori, so he doesn't have Air/Storm or Fire descendents. Again in my campaign, he went to the Green Age to bring back more powers of Harmony, but was trapped there, again betrayed by one of the River Voices of the time. The people of Pavis used the Darkness link to call the Trolls to help them but were betrayed when the trolls took over. 

However, this is definitely a case where my Glorantha varies.

This is a very interesting take on the material.  It fits in nicely with Pavis' multi-elemental summoning abilities from Cults of Prax.  Rather than mating with a Minotaur, perhaps a Wind Child was more palatable?  According to the write-up, the fire powers come from Oakfed, and the Storm powers from Orlanth Rex.  This deliberate sexual hybridization for "daughters" with elemental rune power is a great idea.  It smacks of a weird sex and lineage based sub cult plot within the Cult of Pavis, a bit like what Sauron was trying to do with the rings and the races, only based on bonking and probably not so bent on world domination.  I love comments like this that play up the internal intrigue of the Pavis Cult and flesh out the weird history of the city.  I am definitely going to steal this idea and tweak it by having this a somewhat competitive "inter-fort" thing between the Opilis and the Manis.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

This deliberate sexual hybridization for "daughters" with elemental rune power is a great idea.  It smacks of a weird sex and lineage based sub cult plot within the Cult of Pavis, a bit like what Sauron was trying to do with the rings and the races, only based on bonking and probably not so bent on world domination.  I love comments like this that play up the internal intrigue of the Pavis Cult and flesh out the weird history of the city.

The Priests of Pavis are called Daughters and are based on Pavis' actual daughters, so there is an element of Pavis as an ancestor/family deity. With the exception of Ginkizzie, I doubt if any of the current Daughters are descended from Pavis, though. Perhaps that could be a theme in a campaign, to try and locate the last living descendants of Pavis.

[Darius West]

On 3/12/2017 at 8:03 PM, soltakss said:

The Priests of Pavis are called Daughters and are based on Pavis' actual daughters, so there is an element of Pavis as an ancestor/family deity. With the exception of Ginkizzie, I doubt if any of the current Daughters are descended from Pavis, though. Perhaps that could be a theme in a campaign, to try and locate the last living descendants of Pavis.

Without a doubt, what you have correctly indicated is the public face of the Pavis Cult as per the write-up.  Locating descendents of Pavis is a great hook for a campaign too.  But what will they look like?

Consider if you will, that (strangely enough) Pavis is one of the very few people of the Second Age to become a deity.  Every age has a couple it seems.  Interestingly, Pavis doesn't really become a deity until after his city is destroyed.  Now this can be viewed many ways.  You could hypothesize that Pavis had a nasty streak, and the whole conflagration of the city was planned as the fuel that would propel him into divinity as a sort of mass sacrifice.  "Yes, yes, I plan to recreate the Green Age in a microcosm, come and partake in my gifts of peace and plenty"... sounds like a great way to bait the trap...  Pavis was, after all, a robber of cradles a la the God Learners despite being trained as an EWF mystic.  Pavis also apparently invented his own form of sorcery from the ground up according to HeroQuest materials I don't possess but know a bit about.

Side note:  Very few individuals were both God Learner sorcerers AND Draconic mystics during the Second Age.  I can think of Pavis and only one other... Delecti.  Now while Delecti became a hero and survived the Dragonkill, he didn't quite become a deity.  Did he have more sense?  Good sense is NOT something that one generally associates with necromancers (key words tend more towards "power madness", "vivisection", "blood rituals", "perversion", and for some reason "sparkles in sunlight").  Can it be mere coincidence, then, that the Big Rubble is crawling with Vampires? Blind King's Palace, Balastor's Baracks, etc. er does Delecti send out his minions to discover the secrets of Pavis' ascension to divinity?   Gasp!  Now we know why the Puzzle Canal opens onto the River Styx at Sacred Time (a) as an attempt to save cradles through bypassing the river trip and (b) Styx water fixes your nosey vampire problem, also (c) Styx water sells for a fortune and money is power, and (d) to trap Humakti hero questers by making them "dead" so they cannot return to the world to interfere with the rituals oops shhh someone's coming !

Now the whole New Pavis form of Pavis worship might be the public face of the cult, but it wasn't where the worship started.  It began with Pavis' bloodline, and it was perpetuated in places like Mani Fort, Fort Opili, and other continuously inhabited survivor settlements in the Big Rubble.  Then you have the Flintnail cult, which is essentially the Mostali Openhandists kindly adapting their knowledge to what they think a human theist perspective would look like (Remember...Clark Kent is what Superman thinks ordinary people are like... see where I am going?).  Flintnail is essentially a cargo cult invented by the Dwarves to induce human co-operation in a form they can control... but what "masonic secrets" are they really protecting in the city?  Founding a city is normally enough to get someone venerated in Glorantha, but the cult of Pavis seems a little more involved and extreme than your usual "city founder" religion, and the whole mythic landscape of what was being attempted in Old Pavis seems like a major power play that went wrong... (unless it was supposed to go wrong).

Similarly, Pavis himself was a strange amalgam of races, to the point where he may have actually been a manifestation of a more perfect form of Man Rune, not crippled by the limits of racial purity but unleashed through hybrid vigour.  

So what form did Pavis worship take in the dark days of the 17 Foes of Waha and before the coming of Dorasar?  It is a known fact that the New Pavis Temple is the public face of the Sartarite attempt to come to terms with this ancient city and its secrets, but how much remains hidden even from them?  After all, these Pavic Sartarites are newcomers in the grand scheme of things and they just aren't ready for the truth...

Edited March 15, 2017 by Darius West