raising sub-abilities of a keyword vs. raising the keyword

[Oracle]

The following sentence on p. 106 in HeroQuest Glorantha at the end of the Catch-Ups section gives me a bit of a headache:

Quote

You can’t raise abilities under a keyword, nor gain a catch-up when the effective value of a sub-ability reaches a mastery (since it’s the keyword, not the abilities under it, which has a rating).

So given I have a keyword like Hunter and a sub-ability (that is a breakout ability, right?) Archery with the following values:

Hunter: 13
     Archery +1

According to the above rules I'm not allowed to raise Archery higher than +6, because raising it to +7 would mean, that the effective value (13+7=20) would reach a new Mastery level.

So far, so good.

Now imagine, that over time I have reached this maximum value:

Hunter: 13
    Archery +6

Now, at the next possible opportunity I raise the keyword (e.g. by investing 2 Heropoints):

Hunter: 14
    Archery +6

Wouldn't that break the above rule? And more so, if I raise the value of the keyword even higher?

Or does this rule limit the raising of sub-abilities only? Whereas reaching or exceeding the next Mastery Level by raising the keyword value is possible without any restrictions? (In fact I would tend to use this last interpretation, but I would like to know, how other people handle this.)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Oracle said:

nor gain a catch-up when the effective value of a sub-ability reaches a mastery

I think it only applies to sub-abilities (i.e. they cannot go to +W). 

You can certainly raise a keyword value without restriction.

[Oracle]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think it only applies to sub-abilities (i.e. they cannot go to +W). 

You can certainly raise a keyword value without restriction.

Ok, that supports my own interpretation. So that means given my last example

Quote

Hunter: 14
    Archery +6

it is not possible to raise the sub-ability Archery until the keyword Hunter is raised at least to a value of 20 (i.e. the first Mastery Level) giving an effective value of 1W6 for Archery. Now the sub-ability Archery could be raised again, because now there is room again for reaching the next Mastery Level ...

[soltakss]

Personally, I would allow the increase to be unlimited. So, I would have no problem with Hunter 13 (Archery + 25), from a rules mechanics point of view, it just means that the hunter is a specialised archer who shoots as if he has Archery 38, or 18M). However, from a story/character point of view, why is Archery not an ability on its own if it is so good?

[Oracle]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

...

However, from a story/character point of view, why is Archery not an ability on its own if it is so good?

Good point.

BTW, is it possible to move an ability from a breakout ability to a full ability (e.g. by investing a Hero point)?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Oracle said:

is it possible to move an ability from a breakout ability to a full ability (e.g. by investing a Hero point)?

The main implication of doing so is that you could now use the keyword to augment the ability.  For an ability under an Occupation, Community, or Cultural keyword, I don't see any issue.

For an ability under a Rune that would be more problematic, and I would recommend doing so only as a result of a Heroquest.  E.g. Fireblade +4 under the Fire rune 1W.  I would not let someone shift it to a separate ability just by investing a Hero point.  It's a magical ability specifically tied to that rune.  However, if on a quest, they happen to imbue their sword with the Fire of Ehilm, I would allow them to shift it to a new ability separate from the rune.  But, the ability would then be tied to that object and could not be used on some other distinct object.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

I would allow the increase to be unlimited.

I don't have any issues with that either.  As Simon notes, it just means you've become highly specialized.

[JonL]

I think that sentence is being misread here, and misapplied outside its intended context of Catch-Ups.

It's really saying two different things whose only business being in the same sentence is that they both pertain to Catch-Ups and Keywords interacting.

As I read this, the first phrase,

"You can’t raise abilities under a keyword,"

...forbids raising breakout abilities with the three improvement points you get from a Catch-up.

The second phrase,

"nor gain a catch-up when the effective value of a subability reaches a mastery (since it’s the keyword, not the abilities under it, which has a rating)."

...tells you that a breakout crossing a Mastery break doesn't trigger a Catch-up, only the Keyword's actual rating reaching 21/41/etc. does that.

To rewrite it more to more clearly state what it's saying there:

The three points from a Catch-up may not be spent on breakout sub-abilities under a Keyword, nor does raising a Keyword to a rating such that a breakout sub-ability's net rating crosses a mastery break trigger a Catch-Up - since in both cases it is the Keyword, not the breakouts under it, which has a rating.

Soooo....

On 3/11/2017 at 4:42 PM, Oracle said:

So given I have a keyword like Hunter and a sub-ability (that is a breakout ability, right?) Archery with the following values:

Hunter: 13
     Archery +1

According to the above rules I'm not allowed to raise Archery higher than +6, because raising it to +7 would mean, that the effective value (13+7=20) would reach a new Mastery level.

Now imagine, that over time I have reached this maximum value:

Hunter: 13
    Archery +6

You can raise Archery as much as you want via spending Hero Points towards improvement. The "maximum value" is a mis-reading of the rule. However, you can't raise Archery by itself with points from a Catch-Up. That's what the first part of the rule is actually forbidding.

On 3/11/2017 at 4:42 PM, Oracle said:

 

Now, at the next possible opportunity I raise the keyword (e.g. by investing 2 Heropoints):

Hunter: 14
    Archery +6

Wouldn't that break the above rule? And more so, if I raise the value of the keyword even higher?

 It would not, as you are raising the Keyword's rating rather than the breakout. However, you would not gain a Catch-up when Hunter+Archery totals 21. Only stand-alone Abilities and Keyword ratings trigger a Catch-Up

 

On 3/11/2017 at 6:38 PM, jajagappa said:

I think it only applies to sub-abilities (i.e. they cannot go to +W). 

If my read is correct, sub-abilities can go as high as you like, you just can't raise them with points from a Catch-Up.

 

On 3/11/2017 at 6:47 PM, Oracle said:

it is not possible to raise the sub-ability Archery until the keyword Hunter is raised at least to a value of 20 (i.e. the first Mastery Level) giving an effective value of 1W6 for Archery. Now the sub-ability Archery could be raised again, because now there is room again for reaching the next Mastery Level ...

If again my reading is correct, while it is never possible to raise Archery with points from a Catch-up the net value of the Keyword+breakout rating has no bearing whatsoever on raising Archery with Hero Points. The bit about crossing Mastery breaks only means that breakouts don't trigger a Catch-Up. 

 

tl;dr The whole thing is two rules:

1) Points from a Catch-Up may not be spent on breakout sub-abilities under a Keyword.

2) The net value of a Keyword + breakout sub-ability crossing a Mastery break does not trigger a Catch-up.

The first point is probably because Catch-Ups are supposed to broaden you, not make you more specialized, but wouldn't really hurt anything apart from that if you dropped it.

The second point is more important, because it means that raising a Keyword with four +1 breakouts underneath it from 19 to 20 must by no means suddenly give you four Catch-Ups worth of improvements from all those breakouts hitting 1w. Rather, you would get a single Catch-Up the next time you raise that Keyword and its rating goes from 20 to 1w.

Edited April 12, 2017 by JonL

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, JonL said:

The three points from a Catch-up may not be spent on breakout sub-abilities under a Keyword, nor does raising a Keyword to a rating such that a breakout sub-ability's net rating crosses a mastery break trigger a Catch-Up - since in both cases it is the Keyword, not the breakouts under it, which has a rating.

I think you have read this correctly.

 

12 minutes ago, JonL said:

If my read is correct, sub-abilities can go as high as you like, you just can't raise them with points from a Catch-Up.

I agree - I had missed that this was in reference to the Catch-up package.

[Oracle]

I agree too.

I have to confess, that I had lost the context of the Catch-Ups section.

If I would rephrase that sentence now, I would do it that way:

• You can’t raise abilities under a keyword using this package deal.
• Neither can you gain a catch-up when the effective value of a sub-ability reaches a mastery (since it’s the keyword, not the abilities under it, which has a rating).

Thanks, that was the hint/eye-opener, that I needed.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Oracle