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  2. Also missing from the Locaem Map, page 29: Old tombs (presumably tumuli outside Famegrave, hence the name!) Slate ridge Also the clans aren't marked (but probably intentionally, not to overcrowd the map) Lastly the map legend swaps the key for bridges and waterfalls.
  3. Leingod

    Gods of stone

    Well, I'm not super knowledgeable about the Holy Country in general, but Whitewall is the capital of the Volsaxi Confederation, yes? It might be that Heortling cities are usually built to be (or used as) the center of power of a great king ruling over multiple tribes, not something that multiple tribes come together to build without surrendering their independence; city-building is probably not usually seen by the Heortlings as a way for several neighboring tribes to come together in burying old enmities and forging new alliances, which is how Sartar used it. It's also known that Sartar is the one who invented the City Ring and the position of Mayor, to give both every tribe and the city-dwellers a voice in how the city was run. And that further ties in with Sartar's novel use of city-building as a way to bind people together by giving them something they all had a stake in maintaining.
  4. I definitely agree with suspicion and a refusal to leave their clan lands to live in a "foreign" city (insofar as things that have been around for hundreds of years can still be called such) is probably a big part of why the Trader Prince cities are small on the one hand, and on the other the Trader Princes themselves are mostly interested in just having a secure stronghold to meet their needs, service travelers, and facilitate trade. Anything else would be a bonus, and likely a costly one if the Trader Princes are going to be the ones investing in that (and who else would it be?). So a city of 3,000 or so is just fine as far as they're concerned; it doesn't take a metropolis to make money off the caravans. On the other hand - and I realize you probably weren't actually being very serious about it - I feel like the simple realities of the situation keeps it from being a situation where the Trader Princes are despotic imperialist exploiters of the natives like you've kind of implied. The Trader Princes don't have a strong relationship with their ancestral homeland that would allow them to bring in reinforcements if the natives got uppity (and have also adopted the local languages and a lot of their customs), and they also don't have enough of a technological or military advantage (especially not the latter, since their military is mostly elite mercenaries drawn from the local clans and the Pralori) for their position to really be something that could ever exist without, at minimum, the grudging tolerance of the people around them. Notably, when the Guide describes Dormal's companions, one of them is "Edro, an ambitious Esrolian merchant anxious to compete with the Trader Princes of Maniria" and another is "Mendalan, a bankrupt heir of an Esrolian ship building family." I suspect at least part of the motivation for going west first was that Belintar wanted certain parts of Esrolia to be lifted up and others to be brought down a peg by making the Manirian Road much less of a money-maker while reviving shipping.
  5. lordabdul

    Gods of stone

    Yeah, and wattle-and-daub, along with dry masonry, are fun mostly because they can optionally include the one thing every Orlanthi clan should have more of: cow dung. It's used mixed with soil and straw and stuff for the daubing in the wattle-and-daub wooden houses, but it can also be used as heat insulation in dry masonry by just sticking it between the stones. In my ever-in-prep Far Place campaign I was thinking of having a stead where "cow dung" specialists live, as insulation is important in colder places. A family with stinky hands, but a very important job.
  6. Today
  7. Thank you for your kind words. Will it handle big ships vs. big ships? X-Wing scale "dogfighting"? Yes, from pirate corsairs to fighters to couriers. Still working on capital ship details, but the basics are in place. a commercially-salable product? Yes, I am hoping to release the game in the next few months. are you planning to release it under the BRP-OGL license? I hope so. Still waiting on Chaosium to define some things before I can determine if I have made too many changes to call my game BRP.
  8. This looks really, REALLY good! Do you mind answering a few questions...? Like... RE "Starship combat" -- will it handle big ships vs. big ships? X-Wing scale "dogfighting"? Like... is this aimed at a commercially-salable product? (it looks that way, to me) Like... are you planning to release it under the BRP-OGL license?
  9. Honestly, that sounds about right. EDIT: and thanks for the book suggestion
  10. I always thought the inland Trader Prince "cities" are basically their damn fine Vancian Western castles (the nicest stone architecture for many miles around), with what are basically large pig-villages outside the outer walls. Most Wenelians wouldn't settle in the lap of their exploiters, so the populations stay low; the nobles are busily inbreeding and arranging lucrative marriage contracts up and down the road with whatever rival families seem least likely to assassinate them at any given moment. (I could be wrong, and so could they) If you haven't read Votan by John James yet, you might enjoy it. The story starts by being about Photinus, a civilised, sophisticated Greek merchant, and his attempts to get to the root of the Amber Road. When for various reasons he ends up "chained to an oak tree, half-way up in the middle of nowhere, with wolves trying to eat [him] out of it" and is mistaken for the Allfather of the German tribes, things get more interesting. A great book, one of my favourites. (I see it's available on Kindle now, with an introduction by Neil Himself, so that's a thing) Cheers, Nick
  11. The last of primary Sabre manuals is complete Sabre 2e Scifi Encounters
  12. Yes, clean dishes are important Sadly, I do not know Kojeve at all. And I don't have my thoughts in order about what happens to the Trader Princes. The short version: Chaos vs. Helerings vs. Neo-Entrulings vs. Glorantha Socialists. As for Dormal, I could believe any of those options.
  13. Ok, back Regarding trade, according to the Guide, the Manirian Road was primary about luxury items, so I suspect that it was very vulnerable disruption on either end. So, I suspect the Trader Princes have risen and fell several times. So, the boom times were great, and then things go bad for a while. As far as pressures limiting the population, even before the Godlearners started mucking around, Maniria never seemed to easily support a large population. The parts that did (The Wenelian Penninsula and the Slontos Coast) are now underwater. Scott is 100% right that there are probably a lot of pacts about clearing land, especially around Sweet Valley, Tall Castle, and all of Bastis. It makes complete sense that the Elves (and the Prlalori by extension) extended their power in Maniria after Slontos sank. Regarding the Goddess Switch, something I kind of like is that the Manirians are caught in a double bind: the Elves can "heal the land," but doing so means it is a forest and not suited for agriculture. I did the math. Both Maniria and Esrolia have roughly 10% of their human population in urban centers, so I can't really argue that there's a cultural difference in how much they prefer cities. There's just fewer people.
  14. Really, each of the borders between each of the 'planes' are fuzzy. And are fuzzy in several different ways. Below, barrier means magical border between planes, often but not always between the Mundane and the HeroPlane. On one day, it may be harder to cross a barrier and on another easier. Holy days are known to influence this, as are the phases of the moon and wanes for Moon worshippers. In some places or regions, a barrier is stronger or weaker and in some very magical places, a barrier does not exist or completely changes form, e.g. Hellcrack to the Underworld. Certain areas have a lesser barrier to the GodPlane for aligned worshippers, e.g. the region around KeroFin for Orlanth worshippers; Temples of the Reaching Moon. Some magical tools change the strength or nature of a barrier, e.g. the Eye of the Halfbird. Being in the presence of a Demi-God erases the barrier between the mundane and the HeroPlane, e.g. Moonson, Belintar, Harrek, Ralzakark and many more. There's likely several other influences that I can't recall or half recall as a write this: community support; the needs of a story; and more.
  15. Another question for the tribe, regarding this from the Sartar Companion's Argan Argar cult write-up: The Silver Age Heroes have come up before in this thread, and they may or may not be included among beings who joined the Household during the Kingdom of Night--they are probably no longer part of the Household, after Belintar heroquested to win them to his side in his war to depose Ezkankekko. This was written for the 1600s version of the Argan Argar cult though, so presumably Belintar did not suborn all of the Loyal Household, and maybe some have returned since Belintar's dismemberment. Does anyone know of other entities that might be included in the Loyal Household, or ways Argan Argar worshipers manifest this element of the cult in the world?
  16. Sir_Godspeed

    Gods of stone

    Sure! I was more addressing the community organization aspect of it, to be honest. I believe there was a thread a way back that had art references for Orlanthi settlements from the Vingkotling to the modern age, and they included both cyclopean dry masonry and other techniques. Also, there's the Ernaldan square house, which is going to be the canonical basic template of Orlanthi steads going forward (although they already exist in artwork from Pavis), and those can be made in all sorts of ways, including wattle-and-daub, brick and mortar, logs and dry masonry.
  17. I should be doing that too! My feeling rhymes with yours that the Princes are probably not the best and brightest. They might have had a golden age once but those days are long gone for most. On the other hand, Hero Wars may get a few to rise to the occasion and recollect themselves. I was gonna make a Kojeve joke somewhere to go with the Habermas, maybe it's in here somewhere. EDIT TO ADD VALUE: What's interesting is that once Belintar gets the boats working again the first voyage goes west to seed ports in that direction. He doesn't send a mission to Kralorela until well after Handra is happy. This tells me that (options) 1. The stuff he wanted most was in Handra's direction . . . maybe he preferred their tea. 2. It was intelligence he really craved and the mercantile applications were a nice side bonus. 3. Circumventing the Princes would destabilize rivals of his court and give his friends (Prax-facing Issaries) time to pivot.
  18. lordabdul

    Gods of stone

    Yeah I think that's really what's going on here... and to clarify things given @Tindalos's reply, I didn't quote Morrisson for the "it's a made up story!" bit, but more for what I interpret as his actual point behind this quote, which is that details like "who's pumping the tires" are irrelevant to the story unless they are relevant to the story. That is: the story is most probably about Batman using cool gadgets, doing detective work, and punching criminals... so nobody cares about the tires. Similarly, the stories in Glorantha are about the relationship between mortals and deities, the clashing of cultures, magic, and so on -- not about resource management and distribution... until it is. Maybe we'll see something coming out of Chaosium on that topic, and so they'll have to think about how it works given everything that was published before... otherwise, maybe that's where your/my Glorantha varies because that's what we are interested in. You can still build fortresses and towns and cities without using much masonry, though, no? Like, late-neolithic walls vs. late bronze age walls?
  19. Scott posted while I was posting... will think while I clean dishes and be bac klater
  20. I also think that the Trader Princes are poor heirs to their founder, as they seem more defined by profit than peace through communication, change through equal exchange, so I suspect I'm going to eventually have fun filling in the timeline from 1170 (Castelein arrives in Rhigos) to 1580 (Dormal arrives in Handra). Humans being humans, there was at least one attempt to unify the Trader Princes in that time.
  21. Tindalos

    Gods of stone

    On the other hand, sometimes it's fun to watch these things, even if they're not "accurately" presented. Ignorance may be bliss, but equally knowledge can be fun, and lead to other things. I mean, to use a couple of threads from your post, the person who came up with the Dothraki language in Game of Thrones got his start as a kid trying to understand one of the alien languages in Star Wars!
  22. I lean toward all three. Moving backward chronologically, these towns have definitely seen better days. The last half century has been challenging (No. 2) and many of the best, brightest and most mobile have drifted off to Fay Jee, Khorst, Handra and into the trade centers at either end of the route. An increasingly hard core of traditionalists and dead enders remains. But there's a secret here: even in the glory days before the Opening, the Road doesn't really seem to have scaled to require or support massive numbers of people (No. 1). Unless there's a robust appetite for mule meat in Safelster, the route is only worth what it can support in the round trip and while the Safelster end will pay for religious artifacts, "philosophical" texts and other luxury cargo, how much can you send back to depressed Nochet? Those mules need to eat both ways or get eaten, much as it grieves me to say. My suspicion is that they handed extremely high-value cargo (iron for the East) to Desert Trackers at that point and the Trackers threw them a bone to cover costs. While there's a hard constraint on the amount of metal available, limiting the number of hooves on the road luckily also supports artifact prices so win win. Then when Belintar shows up things get a little better but his inner circle probably captures more of the goodies before the stuff even gets on the Road. Suddenly the westward leg has a supply gap. Fewer hooves on the road means you don't need as much support . . . fewer farmers, fewer drivers, leaner service stations. Then you've got the forest (No. 3) to deal with. We know Castelain made pacts in order to push the Road through there at all. There are probably hard constraints on land clearing or else a quarter million mreli erase you. Maybe the Switch is also in play so the land is glitchy. If you have to import food via mule train you aren't going to want to feed a lot of people. As a No. 4 scenario it would be neat if the Trader Prince population is significantly larger than what's on the maps because so many people are on the Road at any given moment and so don't show up as being "in town." However this is probably no more than 10-20% at the most outrageous. Side notes, Khorst is really weird. Where did all these people come from? Where do they live? The Marsh is unlikely to support high densities and the town itself looks pretty isolated. Before the Trader Princes took over this route Chain Gang probably had a link back to the Shadow Plateau. I don't know when this ended (probably atrophy on the God Learner end and then Belintar does his best to shut it down once and for all) but it's worth teasing out a bit. Trolls were the only people with real access to Dragon Pass ruins after the Kill, so OOO becomes the critical link feeding that stuff into the Esrolian end of the Road. The Safelstrans evidently didn't want to work with the Chain Gang or the Gang didn't want to carry it directly. First thing that comes to my mind is that Arstola would have complained and again you have the quarter million mreli problem, so one way or another Castelain found a way like we always do.
  23. Sir_Godspeed

    Gods of stone

    I think it's just a case of author interest/knowledge versus reader interest/knowledge An author who knows a lot about lingustics will painstakingly worldbuild around etymologies, language families, sprachbund, etc. (Tolkien), and author who is interested in phenotypes, for example, might delve into population migrations and such (Tekumel has a bit of this, even if I realize it's potentially provocative, and he is more notable for linguistics as well), and an author who is interested in myths will paint their maps and inject their character motivations with mythic themes (ie. Greg). I see several posters in this forum who are *deeply* knowledgeable about all sorts of things, and Jeff has talked about how agriculture varies, the very real demographic and logistic constraints of the Lunar army, etc. so it's not like Glorantha is alien to material realism. It might just be that no one at Chaosium or otherwise have truly had the expertise/knowledge to get down and dirty with mining extraction and distribution: the manpower needed, the infrastructure required, maintenance costs, the fuel consumption, the price fluctuations, the trading networks, the tonnage consumption per year, etc. etc. This also applies to a potentially infinite number of topics that people might find interesting. It's a bit like how doctors find medical dramas completely idiotic, or police find crime procedurals insulting, but police might enjoy a good medical drama, and a doctor might love a good crime procedural, or how engineers have debated for decades over how all the Ewoks didn't die during the Death Star's explosion, or how a population demographer absolutely gutted A Song of Ice and Fire's maps as ludicrously lopsided. Sometimes, when it comes to enjoying fiction, ignorance can be bliss.
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  25. Sir_Godspeed

    Gods of stone

    That's all well and good, but we know that Heortlings have had cities for centuries, both in Hendrikiland and in Kerofinela itself. Orlanthland had cities. Hendrikiland had cities. Orlanthi were the prime drivers of urbanization in Dorastor and in Prax (and Ralian and Fronelan Orlanthi have also urbanized independently), and founded and pushed for urban consolidation in southern Peloria as well, where notable urban centres existed even before Lunar expansion (and probably had for centuries, though I am not an expert on the nitty gritty chronology there), and this is not even taking into account their neighboring Esrolians who, despite cultural differences, have mingled with Heortlings enough geographically, politically and culturally (Colymar supposedly claims to be from Esrolia, but was culturally Hendriki, and the whole marriage unions and Adjustment Wars and Heortling sections in Nochet, and Esrolian architectural and artistic styles dominating in all of Kethaela and Kerofinala, etc. show that there's no magical line between the two groups) and is literally the most densely populated place in the whole world, with its single largest city since the Opening, and an urban civilization going back to the Green Age. My point is: it's complicated. IMHO, Orlanthi society is not predicated upon urban organization, but Orlanthi have a long, long history of building and organizing towns. However turbulent they might be. As Jeff has pointed out quite a few times, we might like to think of Orlanthi as rustic, rural people, but they have a history of creating fortresses, towns and cities in lots of places. EDIT: I should add, I don't disagree with the idea that Sartar was an innovator (all texts seem to agree there). It's just a little unclear what exactly he innovated *specifically*, and how that contrasts to other Orlanthi cities, historically.
  26. Tindalos

    Gods of stone

    One of those annoying differences in what you see as a problem or not. Orlanth's had subcults since the earliest day devoted to items taken from other gods. What's the problem with having subcults devoted to Orlanth as a farmer or Carpenter? Of course, the usual fan answer to that was "Alfred, obviously." Ignoring the mundane aspects of life in Glorantha because (to quote Grant Morrison) "It's a fucking made up story, you idiot!" feels at odds with the importance of Ernalda and the fertile earth in the setting. So I sincerely doubt that feeling was behind any answer you got.
  27. Yeah, Goddess Switch plus Trickster college. Hard to make thriving cities when there's a limit to agriculture combined with magical forces that discourage order.
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