Ars Mysteriorum

Beaucase "back then" that was all there was. Back then 90% of the "Alternate" RPGs out there were variantions of D&D, and the biggest differences in gaming style was iver XP awards. I recall seeing pages and pages of people's pet theories as to what was a better formula for working out XP awards.

The majoirty of the adventures were in the 6 parapgraph long room descrtions that were rather stupid, since the GM would read through the entire desciption and point out every nook, cranny, and item in the room, before having the 30 orcs charge.

All the adventures from that era were written that way (Room/Minster/Treasure) and that is what I saw at the gaming tables and at the early conventions.

Despite years of claims by D&Ders that they are role-playing, I've yet to see it. Nine times out of ten it still a dungeon crawl. The tenth time its a "Storm the fortress".

I must say I resent your claims. Please be wary of who you tread on when stating your opinions.

As a person who's only experienced BRP through Call of Cthulhu, I must say that this is terribly confusing.

I think I'm understanding the concept. Unknown Armies uses a comparable (but heavily simplified) approach to rolls as well, where you want to roll under, but try to get the highest possible roll at the same time (that is, if I'm understanding this correctly).

However, I must admit that having to explain this system to my group has dimmed my enthusiasm a bit. My group is made up of people with great characterization and enthusiasm for expanding characters, but they aren't interested in complex mechanics that suck them out of their imaginary world and put them into the unwelcome realm of numbers and statistics. And I admit, off the cuff my arithmetic is atrocious and will probably slow things down considerably.

How tough is this system to learn for "casual" gamers playing it the first time?

What makes you think that everybody played Room/Monster/Treasure back then (whenever 'then' was!)?

I think it's fair to say atgxtg was making a dramatic exaggeration.

However, I can count myself among those that didn't really ever do dungeon crawls as well as a kid playing AD&D 2nd Ed. Yes, I'm probably one of the youngest posters here

Our games usually involved incredibly convoluted multi-dimensional threats with highly epic narrative battles where the dice rolls were more subjective than the system recommended. We still quiver at the mention of the Darkness campaign, where everyone with a good alignment in the multiverse was effectively destroyed by an unstoppable tide of writhing darkness and all the characters we had ever created with good alignments were the only "good" characters in existence and were faced with a reality that strongly disliked them. In my adulthood the idea of alignments grates on me, but as a kid this idea was "freakin' awesome."

Now I would say our plots were... well... a little ridiculous. But back then, through the eyes of an over-imaginative child, they were the stuff epics were made of.

I would say that a majority of gamers did grow up with dungeon crawls, but not a vast and overpowering majority.

On the most part, I agree. Anime has had a TERRIBLE impact on gaming. It's one reason I refuse to talk about Exalted.

However, I have a few guilty pleasures in anime. The Hellsing OVA, what with its neo-nazis, vatican agents, vampires (monstrous, not charming goth-bait) and large (yet realistic) guns scratches many itches for me. Cowboy Bebop is a magnificent Film Noir-ish production. It has an interesting setting that manages to be both distant and approachable. Full Metal Alchemist also has my attentions due to the fact that I'll be studying alchemy in graduate school and it actually has some fairly faithful references to written history... but Fullmetal Alchemist is most definitely not my favorite due to its fluff factor which is formulaic and smacks of the worst parts of Japanese culture.

Those are really the only exceptions to my complicit agreement. Dragon Ball Z is the Dark Lord Lucifer in video format, warn the young members of your family.

I would argue that the successful marketing of the d20 system and its increased popularity with computer and video game support has had a tremendous impact on how games are played. The d20 system catered to these new fans by focussing the system on combat (which any one who plays video games would be more interested in) and less on roleplaying (which Shaira's aforementioned overbite/milk-bottle-bottom spec [i have both afflictions] laden geek is more interested in).

This superficiality, as a result of marketing targeting such a wide audience, has led to a larger amount of RPG players that place more value in the question "How powerful do the rules say I am?" instead of the simple "What can I do in this situation?" or "What would my character do?"

Welcome to the Gamist era of RPG's. Ugh.

My parents found out I was playing RPG's as a kid and ripped them out of my hands. Why wouldn't they with the bad press that saturated the media at the time? Thus, in my sophomore year of college, having become bored with the limits and expense of video game RPG's (which I had only recently reclaimed) and having a pocket blasting with extra cash from my cushy on-campus internship as a marketing researcher, it dawned on me that I could re-enter the world of RPG's. I ran to the FLGS and purchased the gift set of the three core rulebooks for D&D 3.5.

I enjoyed them. For a time. I found combat to be cumbersome and over-detailed,and yet strangely under-detailed over time. So I purchased the New World of Darkness books. I still like them, but the main supplements (vampire, werewolf, mage), while having great ideas, really forced the idea of the universe upon the reader. In the Antagonists supplement it is even stated that zombies in large numbers are not to be a part of the World of Darkness' setting. While I can go ahead and do whatever I want, I find games which attempt to do that offensive. Metaplot without metaplot. Weird. And really difficult to GM.

Exalted was a stupid purchase on my part.

Looking for games that allowed for an immersive roleplaying experience, I purchased Nobilis. A little extreme, and I doubt I will ever run it, yet it remains a model for what I think of as the perfect game. I would most definitely play it with a HG who knew the "rules" (more like a feel) in a heartbeat.

So I purchased Unknown Armies. Wow. I have yet to run a game in it. It's so... dirty. But so incredibly beautiful at the same time. I honestly am still working on exactly how to run such a game and really push the system in a way that capture the player's imagination in a manner to do the wonderful ideas of John Tynes and Greg Stolze justice.

Over the Edge. More wow and a deeper understandind of how a game can be centered on characters and yet still be loosely controlled by the GM. Jonathan Tweet was a visionary. I have yet to play it.

Feng Shui. Cool. Very cool. A game that utilizes imagination to fuel its engine. Fun for fun's sake. It asks for fun and furious descriptions of actions in an over the top manner.

One gamer could only produce the phrase, "I hit him" despite encouragement and advise from the other players. I tried a few examples of nifty descriptions and he would just go with what I suggested uneditted. A perfect example of a product of the most extreme superficiality of today's RPG and video games.

Talislanta. WOW! So much setting, and yet so much freedom. Sechi's love for the world makes the reader love the world. He shows how vague detail can spark the mind. I ran it and my player, this time a very talented gamemaster I met while I lived in Japan, disliked how his magic was "too weak" and stubbornly pushed his magic into levels where Mishaps occured very often. This makes for a very un-fun game.

Call of Cthulhu. The masterwork. My first games as a kid were AD&D 2nd Edition. Here were the stats I was so familiar with, and yet applied in a way that was so different. The game is a beautiful narrative system that places the power of the story squarely in the GM's hands (the Idea, Knowledge, and Luck rolls are powerful tools) and the slow spiral into insanity as characters explore the apathetic universe is breathtaking and entrenching. It's very hard to find players for this game where I am. d20 is really the only game and few players like failing and dying. Thanks to the path of games I've read I now find failure to be just as interesting as epic success, if not more so.

My failures with Call of Cthulhu groups have been terrible. One player said he hated it because he didn't like failing. I looked at him oddly. What fun is a game where you can only win? This player was a fiercely competitive person and prone to sighing loudly when things did not go his way in-game and out-of-game. Another product of today's gaming.

With the announcement of 4th Edition D&D, I sold all of my d20 books, very, very finished with a system I had already grown to strongly dislike. I purchased Warhammer. Warhammer is a direct descendant of BRP. Fate points provide a compromise for d20 players fearing death and it's ease of play and deep setting instill the desire to really play a character. Combat is simplistic, but requires enthusiasm and imagination in order to make it shine. I like that.

I have also seen Warhammer's semi-narrative gameplay fail miserably in the hands of the new generation of gamers. It's not pretty to see. I actually began arguing with a player when he refused to write a character history for Warhammer and saw it as unimportant. As his argument continued it became clear he was actually just lazy. I only asked for some cursory details to help involve his past in the plot and told him a detailed history would be appreciated. His response was that it was the sole responsibility of the GM to place characters into situations, inventing the necessary reasoning, and move them to the next point. Which was odd that I was being told how to run the game, seeing how I was the GM. The nail in the coffin was when he concluded that attempting to "warp" a character's history into the plot was generic and boring.

Ugh. This kind of controlling, yet strangely controlled, gamer seems to be a product of the new kind of gaming.

One could say my follies were my fault, not including the interests of my player more directly. However, a GM plays the game too. Having character's succeed despite dice makes me wonder why we have dice at all. Having to invent everything for characters is a burden that, for me, creates more stress than fun. I feel like I don't have the right to make assumptions of another character because it demeans the concept of roleplaying.

Wow. This turned into a rant.

I would like to add that I've had very good experiences with other d20 gamers. One friend I had tried Feng Shui, loved it, and bought the game as soon as he could. We recently ran Warhammer and he had yet another similar reaction. Obviously the statements I have made don't apply to most gamers. I would say that it applies to a slight majority however... but I could be jaded.

Anyways... yeah.

Sorry for the rant, but it felt good!

I'm really looking forward to tearing into BRP and using this wonderful narrative system to create an original setting. I'm going to be moving away from my middle-of-nowhere midwestern suburb-with-no-city to a place near Boston in the near future. Perhaps there I can find more like-minded gamers.

Quick question to Shaira: Which region of Japan did you live in? I spent two years in Niigata Prefecture and wasn't so deeply immersed in the anime culture.

Personally, I don't use encumbrance rules unless the setting calls for it. Talislanta is a game where I think encumbrance isn't a tremendous concern. Common sense can probably do the trick.

Once again though, this is a personal preference.

In my mind, players characters are heroes by definition no matter the game system or setting.

I am rather fond of the grim-and-gritty style and settings myself and I can identify with your point of view. However, I still like the concept and have no problem with using this mechanic in conjuction with a grim-and-gritty setting. It just has to be mananged properly, and the benefits of the mechanic have to be carefully balanced so that it doesn't drastically alter the flow of events (i.e. spending a point mystically heals all wounds, etc.).

As a WFRP GM, I would like to add that Fate Points do not mystically heal anything. The character survives. That's it. He is most certainly down for the fight where the critical wound was dealt, and probably is missing a limb or is badly injured. He may also be captured and have all his gear taken.

Fate points allow a character to avoid deleterious effects, but not completely.

Just saying.

In BRP, what statistic would be considered superhuman? Anything above 18?

Quick question... people have mentioned that RQ has some detailed rules that may make Talislanta difficult to modify.

Anyone have any examples so I know just how ridiculously huge this undertaking will be?

Don't get me wrong. Tal4 has a nice, flexible system, especially regarding magic after you get high enough levels.

I just like BRP a LOT more.

Some good ideas all around. Indeed, drohem, I was hopeing there would be some idea pitching. However, until I get the BRP core I won't be able to know what changes will be necessary. I have never played Runequest and only have cursory knowledge of even the setting. I'm afraid I won't be much help until I get that book.

And, ugh! Speak not of the d20 Talislanta. Ick. Sorry if there are any fans here, but d20 and Talislanta have little properly to do with one another in my opinion.

Trifletraxor, thank you for your advice. I agree with your statement completely. For those interested in balance, those methods would work rather well. However, as I studied more gaming systems I grew to dislike balance in all its forms and now find it wholely unnecessary. I fully understand and respect why many people prefer balance, but I simply don't share the same perceptions.

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate your advice. I actually do quite a lot. Many players are more acclimated to balanced games and that's a fine way of getting what I want while giving the players what they want.

Hello and welcome Ars Mysteriorum!

Thanks! I've lurked here a bit since Chaosium declared its intention to create a cogent rendition of the BRP rules in a massive tome. I'm very excited to see how it turns out!

I put a question mark there because my main question is: Is it possible?

It has an onslaught of over 60 playable races and pays very little attention to any notion of balance. A Thrall Warrior is already an incredibly powerful fighter, but is incredibly puny compared to a Kharakhan Giant. Both the Thrall Warrior and the Kharakhan Giant are playable archetypes. I tried converting the setting to Savage Worlds and found, much to my disappointment, that such a balance oriented game could not support these wildly varying races.

So I place my hopes in BRP. Is anyone else here familiar with Talislanta? I really think the system would lend itself well to to Talislanta's fantastic setting, but I hold no illusions to how much work it would take to convert Talislanta (it will most definitely take a lot), and so before undertaking such a task I wanted to hear the opinions of others on this board.

And so I reiterate:

Do you think it's possible to convert 4th Edition Talislanta to BRP?

Greetings all!

I'm a new initiate to the Basic Roleplaying system and an avid gamer.

I started with AD&D 2e and progressed through an onslaught of popular gaming systems. Finding these all to be too "gamist" (heavy on rules and tactics with almost no attention to really playing a role and emphasis on telling a story), I traversed backwards in gaming chronology.

I purchased the new World of Darkness (the core is heavily influenced by Call of Cthulhu IMO), Nobilis (brilliant, but very specific in who it appeals to)Unknown Armies (Rules light and plot HEAVY), Over the Edge (rules medium and plot HEAVY), Talislanta (despite being non-traditional, it evokes the atmosphere of the classic fantasy setting better than any other setting I've ever read), Call of Cthulhu (one of my favorites in terms of narrative gameplay), and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (very much like BRP, but is slightly more forgiving in combat without losing the grim edge of its fantastic setting).

Of all of these, BRP provided the best narrative experience I've ever had the joy of running. Idea, Know, and Luck rolls are fantastic tools for the GM to use to continue the flow of the story unabated, but with appropriate drama and a sense of risk.

I look forward to sharing ideas with like-minded individuals here!