svensson

Okay, as I understand it spirits loyal to a deity provide the deity's Spirit Magic. As for horses and retconning... I'm not rewriting the myths, nor am I trying to make Elmal/Yelamalio something he is not. My version of Elmal is how I think Storm clans sees him. The myths haven't changed, it is two societies who view the myths differently. They have different priorities and each sees the same myths in a different light [pun intended]. Because of these differences in viewpoint and emphasis, the cults will be very different from each other. As I have said, think of this as two Protestant Christian faiths, say the Lutherans and the Calvinists. Each of them believes in the same sacred text, the Bible. Each of them worships the same Trinity. But each ascribes different importance to sacred events they both acknowledge and believe in. What's more, both were developed in different societies... the cultures were similar but if you ask ANY German, a Thuringer and a Schweizer [Thuringian and Swiss] have VERY different views on how to live life. With this in mind, I imagine the Sun-Light-Schism as those Orlanthi who were attracted to a more rigid, more orderly life [without the clan feuds, cattle raids, etc.] chose Yelmalio and the Fire pantheon, while those who were content with rule under the Storm /Orlanthi cultural model stayed loyal to their clans.

Thanks Erol. Nice of you to say. Lance is considered a Spear attack while mounted, either one- or two-handed depending on style. Like you, I have my own biases about Lances and Spears. IMGU, a lance and a spear have one one difference from each other... how many legs are under it when the guy tries to jab it into the other guy. Insofar as construction goes, they are precisely the same weapon. Each of them is a 6-12 foot piece of seasoned hardwood with one bladed end and possibly a metal butt-cap. There are exactly three ways to wield said spear from horseback. Overhand, couched [like a European knight] and two-handed [like a Byzantine cataphract]. Had my way, I'd make Lance its own skill. But that would be getting kind of granular and, well, ticky-tack. The old medievalist in me sees things one way, but the practical gamer in me understands why Spear and Lance were combined.

In my neverending quest to find obscure and useless trivialities to discuss and argue about, the nature of Uralda/Eiritha came up in my Elmal thread and it made me as the question, 'Which deity is the patron/ess of Herd-Men?' Is there a Eiritha-Herd-Man tradition? Is it still Daka Fal?

The crucial difference between Oath and Sever Spirit is that Oath is voluntary. You can't 'attack' with an Oath spell, each participant voluntarily contributes MP to the spell's effect. You can avoid the consequences of an Oath spell by simply not participating in it. Of course, that might have other consequences for you, but that's a tail on another herd beast 😉

You're welcome Alex. I appreciate the support. My version of Elmal may not jive with Your Glorantha. That's totally fine. No game, milieu, or setting survives contact with player characters intact anyway 😁 I don't think Lightning is OP when you compare it to Thunderbolt and Sunstrike. Of the three, it is the lesser spell. What's more, it can be cast in any weather or lighting condition and I feel this makes it appropriate for a warrior cult with close ties to Orlanth. I did omit a comma with Oath and Shield, thanks for the catch. I put Oath and Detect Truth in the spell lists to acknowledge Elmal's ties with the Truth Rune and I don't feel Oath is as 'Humakt-ish' as, say, Sever Spirit. I think of Oath as a spell to bind strangers into an honorable pact, thereby building the trust that is essential to a clan, so I included it in Elmal's portfolio. My thought was that in the Great Darkness, many strangers were guided to safety by Elmal's Light. Trust had to be built and the Oath spell illustrates that process. As I have read Uralda, she is the HERD mother... the patroness of all beasts who are domesticated by Men. While the Praxians may separate Eiritha into Impala-Eiritha, Llama-Eiritha, and so forth in their spirit traditions, it has no effect on Rune Magics employed. A Bison-Woman can cast an Eiritha spell on a Bolo Lizard with the same efficacy it would have on her own herd beasts. Because of that, I see Uralda taking in cattle, horses, goats, and so on under her care. Certainly the Orlanthi focus of Uralda worship is on cattle... that is the basic unit of wealth. But it's not too far off the beaten path to see Uralda-women in the Enhyli clan caring for the annual foaling.

And yet of the two Sun Dome Counties we have any information about, neither of them field cavalry. This, of course, doesn't mean that they don't have horses but it does imply quite strongly that horsemanship and horse archery are simply not a priority and it is not focused upon. As for the size of the two cults, well, so what? Yelmalio's is a different path, one of rigid thought, draconian social control, and an incredible lack of the freedom so beloved by Orlanthi everywhere. I specifically designed my version of Elmal to be a Storm cult, for those who remained loyal to their clans and to the Orlanthi way of life.

@Shiningbrow Oh, one of your points that I forgot to mention. In an Elmal-worshiping clan, you can pretty much bet that Uralda/Eiritha are gonna have a larger presence than is normal in a more 'mainstream' Orlanthi clan. The Uralda/Eiritha cult provides a great deal of 'herd-health' magic and I thought that they would handle foaling. This leaves the horsemen/women of Elmal free to do the work they're focused on, guardianship.

@Shiningbrow Thanks for your thoughts! I'll reply in something like the order you posted. 1. Orlanthi use both Bows and Javelins in roughly equal proportions, and every professional warrior in Glorantha starts a battle by whittling the odds down some with missile fire. And those that don't are fools. 😁 OK, there is the heavy infantry [Yelmalion phalangists, etc.] who pay other people to do it for them, but it still gets done. Slings are perceived as a poor carl's weapon, the kind of thing a sheepherder would use. More importantly, slings are classified as Darkness weapons [what with the blunt ammo] and is the iconic weapon of the Uz god Zong, Kyger Litor's Hunting Son. Bows are seen to require more skill to use, more skilled maintenance, and are therefore considered more 'professional'. Javelins are in between. It's not unreasonable that an Elmali would choose Javelin instead of Bow based on availability on and finances of a steading. Given that Elmal's principle Elemental Rune remains Fire, I don't see a problem there. 2. Elmal worshiping clans are just as adept as Horsegrazers or Pol-Joni for breeding excellent horseflesh, thank you very much. While the Orlanthi don't field heavy cavalry like the Carmanian kataphraktoi or Praxian Bison Riders [and let's be honest here... the Bison Riders 'heavy' cavalry is the size of the mount not the armor on the man], I haven't seen anything that says that says the Enhyli of the Colymar Tribe doesn't contribute a highly practiced and very capable medium cavalry squadron to the Colymar's war muster. So I've chosen to encourage that behavior. Again, this is only providing MINOR access to the skill set. No Orlanthi army has a predominance of cavalry forces and most Orlanthi commanders are not cavalry commanders. This is one reason why, from a practical standpoint, Argrath marrying the Feathered Horse Queen is so important. It provides the Dragon Pass forces with cavalry every single bit as good as the Lunar levies from Carmania and Pent. 3. I didn't really emphasize the Fire aspect of Elmal other than three Spirit Magic spells. Whether the Yelmites like it or not, Elmal the Loyal Thane was one of the Lights in the Great Darkness, and he worked to save people just as hard as Pole Star and Yelorna, and with MUCH more success than the latter. He 'kept the home fires burning', so to speak, guiding people to safety and because of that I felt that he ought to have some fire magic, but not a lot of it. This is also the reason why Elmal doesn't summon or control Fire elementals. 4. As to Spirit Magic spell selections, Elmal's cult is small. What's more, it has the same problems with spellteaching as Humakt's cult does: the only source of spellteaching are the Sun Thanes... in addition to training damned near anyone who asks how to ride a horse, supervising the horse herds of the clan and possibly tribe [hey, go to the expert, right?], being a professional thane in service to the clan and tribe etc. With those two factors in play, I felt that the spell list should be pretty limited. You'll notice that Elmal doesn't teach Bladesharp either... Besides, Heal and Protection are easily available to an Elmali clansman through Ernalda and Orlanth respectively. 5. I thought Lantern, cast on a shield as it is, was more important to a guardsman type figure. YGMV, but that's how I saw it. 6. Because of his work in defending the people from all enemies and in all circumstances, I felt that Orlanth would reward his Loyal Thane with one of his iconic combat spells when he held his great feast after the Lightbringers Quest. Lightning made more sense than Thunderbolt. 7. The reason I didn't give Elmal anti-Chaos magic was because that's a very niche set of magical skills. Only one god in the Storm Pantheon has that magic, and Elmal's myths don't ever mention Urox/Storm Bull. That's why I didn't include those spells. Elmal did face Chaos, but he had to master the fear within himself instead of bolstering his Courage with magic. And in a sense, that makes him all the more admirable. I think that got to everything you mentioned and I hope I answered your questions. Take a look at my final version in the Downloads section.

I've uploaded my final version of my Elmal to the Downloads section for those interested.

Well, I promised you all my final writeup by today, so here it is. This isn't 1000% in accordance to every single bit of lore we have. I've done my best to make a Storm cult with Elmal's focus that isn't dependent on Yelmalio for its myths or its conflicts. As I said earlier, I think of this as being two sects of Christians who worship the same God for the same reasons, but they focus on different roles, doctrine, and theology. And, as always, Your Glorantha Will Vary. CULT of ELMAL. The Loyal Thane, The Sun Horse Elmal is a former servant of Yelm, the Sun God, and the keeper of his horses. In the God Time, Chalana Arroy healed Elmal of his blindness, reducing the Light of his own radience so that he might see and consider other ways. He eventually came to serve Orlanth, seeing the benefits of Change. During the Great Darkness, when Orlanth departed on the Lightbringer’s Quest, Elmal served the Storm people as Orlanth’s Thane. He protected the people against the depredations of Chaos, striving always to protect and preserve the people against Orlanth’s return. Since Time began, he provides the Storm people with an exemplar of Honor and Courage by protecting the people and patrolling the clan tula. He provides the pantheon with minor access to Fire magics and is patron of the horses of the Storm Folk. Lay Membership Any Storm pantheon initiate may purchase lay membership by paying a simple annual fee of 5 lunars to the priest on the Cult Holy Day. This provides access to training in the cult skills at normal rates as time is available by skill masters. Initiate Membership Initiation is automatic for the children of initiates. It otherwise has standard requirements. Cult members are trained in Ride Horse to 40% and the cult Spirit Magic Spell Ignite for free. While Elmal is primarily a male cult, it holds no bias against female members. Cult members are forbidden to learn any Light or Fire extinguishing spell, with the exception being the Rune Magic spell Rain. Cult Skills: Bow, Herd, Ride Horse, Scan Shield, Spear Cult Spirit Magic: Ignite taught for free. Detect Enemies, Firearrow, Fireblade, Lantern, Mobility, Shimmer. Sun Thane Membership The Cult of Elmal has no priests. Rune Lords of Elmal are termed Sun Thanes and have the normal requirements. Skills required are: Ride Horse @ 90%, Bow or Spear @90%, Scan @ 90%, any two skills from the following list at 90%: Cult Lore [Elmal], Herd, Shield, Search, Track, Worship Elmal, another weapon attack. Rune Magic: Command Horse, Shield. Sunbrighten, Sure Shot, True Spear Associate Cult Magics: -- Orlanth provides Cloud Clear and Lightning -- Chalana Arroy provides Restore Health THIS IS MODIFIED BY THE CULT WRITEUP I PUT IN THE DOWNLOAD FEED. THAT IS THE FINALIZED VERSION.

One somewhat serious. Kinda Ernalda-ish, right? And one because, well, we are who we are. This one goes out to HOA Presidents everywhere...

Umm.... learn topiary? 😁

Some more images from my Atalan files. The first is from the BBC's series on the Minoans. The second artist is unknown, but is a Sims game mod. Third is the wonderful Angus McBride. The fourth artist is unknown.

@Rob Darvall 1. Elmal, Yelmalio, and how worshipers see it. There is a distinct difference between those who believe a religious doctrine and the objective facts base on evidence. The doctrinal split between Elmal and Yelmalio is based on God Learner writings and our own very secular take on comparative theology. The way I see the split is that those who are dissatisfied with the Storm Pantheon or Orlanthi culture became Yelmalions and those who were satisfied with Elmal's place and the culture that went along with it stayed with Elmal. My statement of 'that's not the way we do it, so what?' is from the believer's standpoint not a doctor of divinity's lectern. 2. The Sun Domes and Horses. In WF15, @Jeff Richards portrays the County of Vanntar [the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass] as also having given up the horse to focus on their Templar phalanxes. If this is common among all SDTs, it could be that Yelmalion doctrine has backed off the horse aspect of the portfolio out of respect of Yelm's focus on it. But a very beneficial side effect of that for Sky cultists isolated in a land full of Storm and Earth worshipers is the emphasis on xenophobia and the social control that a dismounted population gives the temple hierarchy. Less people traveling means fewer people getting silly ideas in their heads... you know, foolish things like free will, personal choice, personal responsibility, dissent with government....

It's an interesting question. But with hundreds of thousands to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

The Yelmalio cult is the DDR [aka East Germany] of Glorantha. They're desperately xenophobic, incredibly close-minded, and highly pissed off that their more relaxed neighbors are doing just about everything better than they are. There. I said it.

And just to digress a little bit, it occurs to me that the Yelmalion basic sense of xenophobia and their deep seated need for social control is the single major reason why they abandoned the horse aspect of their faith. Horses let people travel and people traveling leads to all sorts of heretical and forbidden things into the County. You know, like 'ideas' and stuff...

@Lordabdul If you don't hate but respect your drill sergeant/instructor by the end of boot camp, they didn't do their job right 😁 Mind you, I have no idea how wingnuts and mop-jockeys feel about it. They don't have real drills anyway. 😁😁 To all the contributors: My idea here isn't to 'make Yelmalio with serial numbers filed off'. My intention is to make a cult that firmly believes that Yelmalio and Elmal are separate deities with separate myths who share similar but not identical portfolios. I strongly feel that if I construct this right Elmal worshipers will simply not care what Yelmalions are up to any more than a modern Baptist cares about what a Lutheran is up to. The sects will be different enough that they will attract their own worshipers. I have this mental scenario where some doctrinaire Light Son starts quoting chapter and verse [in Firespeech, of course] and Elmal Light Thane says 'So what? That's not how we do that and it doesn't matter to us."

I would think that would depend on whether the Rune Spells are one-use or not. I don't see a 'Glorantha' or 'Stafford-logic' reason why you couldn't access different traditions. After all, a Lhankor Mhy sage in RQG has Spirit Magic, Rune Magic and Sorcery in the repertoire of a single person, something impossible in RQ3. But if the Rune spells are reusable, that's rather different. A reusable Rune spell is an investment by a deity into their worshiper, a sharing of powers. If an ancestor worshiper gains Orlanth magic from an ancestor, I don't think they ought to be able to cast that ancestor's Rune spells reusably.

To collective brain trust: I'm generally satisfied with the Spirit Magic list but do you think that adding Speedart and/or Multimissile would be too much?

@metcalph Alright. I can see your point there. Now I strongly believe that Orlanth Rex ought to provide Elmal's cult with a spell in gratitude for the Loyal Thane's just and honorable care for Orlanth's people while he was on the Lightbringer's Quest. Orlanth Thunderous is important to the tula for his weather control magic. That also supports that 'concerns at home' sensibility in the cult. So if we wish to discard an Orlanth subcult, logically it would be Orlanth Adventurous. It seems to me that the solution is to move Shield up to the Rune Spells known and taught by Elmal's cult, and remove the other Orlanth Adventurous magics altogether.

To quote the line from 'The 13th Warrior', "Lo, there I see the line of my people going back to the beginning..." Every single man and woman in your family going back into the Godtime is an 'ancestor' by the standards of Daka Fal. There are so many that you couldn't possibly know all their names. In the Spirit Plane of Glorantha, there are hundreds of thousands of spirits who are directly related to you by blood lineage on either side of your parentage. This is why the table for Summon Ancestor is random.

So proposed cult nuts and bolts mechanics [Notes: All spells in RQG, will consider custom spells later; I really prefer the individual Spirits of Reprisal as opposed to RQG's generic spirit attack, so I'll include them here. Still working on the Rune qualifications - no, there won't be gifts and geasa] Cult Skills: Animal Lore, Herd, Ride Horse, Scan, Bow, Spear Spirit Magic Spells: Detect Enemies, Firearrow, Fireblade, Ignite, Mobility; Shimmer. Initiates taught Ignite for free. Extinguish is forbidden and must be forgotten Rune Spells: Cloud Clear, Command [Horse], Sunbrighten, Sureshot, Truespear. All Darkness or fire/light extinguishing magic forbidden. -- Orlanth Adventurous provides Shield and Wind Words -- Orlanth Thunderous provides Cloud Call; provides Thunderbolt to High Priest -- Orlanth Rex provides Detect Honor; provides Command Worshipers to High Priest -- Chalana Arroy provides Restore Health Spirit of Reprisal: Those who betray Elmal suffer two curses, all of which are cumulative: 1. Initiates must make a POW v. POW roll every time they wish to use [ride, uses a pack or work animal] a horse or horse-related creature [horse, mule, donkey, zebra, etc.]. Such beasts will automatically shy and resist any attempt to approach them. Should Rune Level become apostate, Fire will consider him an enemy and refuse to serve him. Fires will not light for him using any method, he shall not feel warm by any source other than body heat, he will sunburn very easily, his food shall always be tepid or cold, and any Fire spell directed at him shall do +1d6 damage.

From the OP: I VERY much appreciate the thoughts and brainstorming you've all contributed here. Every comment has cause me a moment or three of thought and reflection. I really didn't think there'd be this much interest, and I feel complimented and supported in the project. Thank you. What would be helpful is if some of you could suggest Rune and Spirit magic spells that you think would be available to the cult along with your logic as to why the cult would include such a spell. The cult will teach between 3 and 5 Spirit spells and one or two Rune spells. I do not intend to do a full multi-page write up with a full mythological background and so on. My goal is to offer the one-page summary of what I think Elmal might look like as a Storm oriented hearth-guard deity. I believe I'll have my thoughts in order this week and be able to get it to you for your, um, 'critique' 😉 by the end of the week.