davecake

I generally think that the Loskalmi treat the female caste, the Menena, the same way as they do the others - there is caste mobility and it based on ability and occupation. And the Menena caste is about child care and reproduction. A woman enters the Menena caste on pregnancy, and remains in it as long as they are caring for children. But women have as much caste mobility as men (at least in theory) - they may become Guardians or Men-of-All. I think there is a tendency for them to be less common in both, but I think that is largely due to the responsibility of child care - the relationship with their children changes more than it would for most men, and most women who progress through the caste system are either unmarried or have a relative who is willing to assume all child caring responsibilities. Men-of-All probably have to live up living with families, at least until thet graduate from the monastic life. While the idea of patronage through pederasty might have some historical basis, I’d really hate to see it become a major theme in depictions of Loskalm, which is supposed to be idealized.

"The Zendamalthan School rejects empiricism and holds material phenomena to be inferior and corrupt.", so the New Hrestoli at least appear to not be on the side of empirical evidence. The Brithini would surely claim they have thousands of years of empirical evidence to back up their reasoning, and the God Learners etc are just more empirical evidence they are right.

I tend to think that for creating new magical techniques, there has to be magical validation and exercise of the new powers. But that is often done on the Essence plane, and looks a lot like meditation accompanied by a bit of external ritual. There is a lot of irl ritual that takes a similar approach.

True most of the time. But I was wondering if other castes not using sorcery was a hard rule , or a pragmatic choice, and I guess it’s a pragmatic choice. Which means extremely little sorcery for workers and soldiers, but you are going to get Talar dilettantes. And there are imaginable sorcery for other castes even. I can’t see your average farmer learning any, but, say, someone who becomes a wealthy guild master at age 40 gradually learning some sorcery associated with their craft over the next 30 years doesn’t seem unreasonable.

Yes. Some subcults exist just for that purpose I think that a lot of sub-cults are just that - rather than teaching a rune spell themselves, they may teach how to learn a rune spell from an associated cult. For example in Hero Wars there was a sub-cult or Ernalda called Overdruva Forest Friend who taught elf friend magic (because HW had a sub-cult for everything). In RQG, Overdruva would be the name of the minor goddess who teaches how to get the associated cult spell from Aldrya, and you can either use that to make learning the spell interesting, or ignore it entirely as irrelevant to the rules. And associations are the most likely thing to vary regionally, they do so very often. I think that sort of thing, associated with a particular ancestor or hero, is really common.

The Irensavalists certainly do regard the material world as corrupt. Their two favourite schools of sorcery are: The Furlandan school, which can be seen as about how to stop the worst corruption of the material world from corrupting you, from basic hygiene to spiritual hygiene through to demon banishing The Zendamalthan, which teaches that the best magic is based on pure mathematical and magical principles not material properties I think they treat most of the elemental and form rune based sorcery with a sort of sniffy disdain at best. They may have experts, but they are just not as well regarded as serious thinkers. The Furlandan school is happy to give you detailed instructions on how to eat and breathe and poop in order to minimise corruption, and one of the core texts of New Hrestolism, Against Demons, is in large part a hygiene manual, and I'm sure they all taught the important parts in Gods Day school. Including not just how to keep disease and passion demons away through clean living, but also going to the gym regularly, a regular sauna, the secrets of a good (and pure) marriage, and how to atone when you commit wicked deeds. They aren't ascetics or puritans at all - they can be cheerily sensual, especially when it comes to food and sex - but they are very concerned with hygiene and have strong opinions on how to live right. They do think intellectual pleasures are better than sensual ones, but that doesn't mean they should be practiced exclusively - if one must eat, or exercise, or procreate, may as well enjoy it. They appear a bit more ascetic than the Rokari though - partly the hygiene obsession, and partly because the Rokari don't care as much about encouraging the intellectual life of the bulk of the population, for a warrior or worker has no business learning zzaburi business. Obscure Malkionism detail - the stories of Malkion listed as being in the Abiding Book in RM includes 'Malkion blesses the relish' which as first glance seems a ridiculously trivial detail (Malkion says try the veal!) but it's got a serious spiritual point - Malkion sees no point in ascetism for its own sake, it is OK to simply enjoy things and create things just to make a more pleasant life. Similarly, Malkion praises the beautiful dancer - he has no problem with them devoting time and effort just to entertain.

That makes a lot of sense - and the idea of Ancestor Worship among the Malkioni goes all the way back to Cults of Prax (which talks about the First Age Seshnegi going crazy with it). I presume they have learnt to do so by sorcerous means, or at least certainly without involving any shamans (for sanctioned official rites at least). Is limited sorcery against caste rules, or just inadvisable and unusual? Eg are the secret techniques of worker caste guildmasters going to be sorcerous or theist (or a bit of each, depending)?

And you are presumably extending the current rules in some ways (at least, that was certainly the intent stated in HQG), so if you think you are on the right track you may wish to take the dissatisfaction of others as a signal that sharing some extensions to the rules with the player base sooner rather than later would be welcomed. But as your stated design intention seemed to be to make zzaburi unattractive as a player character option, and lots of people are probably interested in playing them, it is certainly possible that you may think the rules work just other fine and other people will still be very disappointed. And tastes differ - I'm probably unlikely to be very fond of any rules that make long Duration spells the most effective option for sorcerers, as I personally dislike rules that implicitly encourage spreadsheets and schedules and optimising project management as a core play style. YMMV. Personally, two good sort of 'touchstone' questions for me are: do these rules allow a Hrestoli Man-of-All as a viable PC that is at least moderately magically capable? is a Rokari zzaburi at least as viable a PC as a Lhankor Mhy sage, and at least as interesting to play? I'm aware that making a viable PC can be more than just rules, or many rules may be specific to sects (I certainly hope so for the Loskalmi), or not just part of the sorcery rules (what a heroquesting sorcerer can do, for example) and some dissatisfaction with the sorcery rules might be because they are undeveloped - I hope so. Certainly the current sorcery in RQG is like Rune Magic was prior to Cults of Prax this (when there was only a single cult useful for most PCs), bones without enough flesh.

Which would have given the Gloranthan year 52 weeks, and meant we didn't have to worry about this annoying issue. A missed opportunity for Glorantha that could have bbeen

I think, as Martin says, this is a regimental level ritual. In many cases this does involve a wyter, who is able to cast a spell against multiple targets. There are other ways to get useful mass effects, but I think it is very seldom just 'cast a really big version of the spell'

I think this is sometimes true, but not always. For major regiments it is likely true, but for your average regiment it is probably not - they have a regimental patron god and a wyter, but not specialised rune magic. And for many units, not even a single patron god. So the Lasadag Lions, Granite Phalanx, etc - yes, they have a unique sub-cult. Units of mixed origin troops, like the Wolf Pirates, have a wyter but are not all part of a single cult. Some militia units may have to rely on their community wyter. If they do have a sub-cult, yes, but this isn't always true. I think the regimental wyter is usually somehow helping. Yes. I think this is true of most regiments anyway. Where there is special subcult rune magic, it may often be something similar to Morale, so yes. The wyters magic can also be used to cast magic on multiple people, so as to bolster the fron line against a charge etc. Defending against magical attack is usually something you would use the wyter for, especially as many magical attacks take the form of an attacking wyter. I don't know how this works in the rules, but there are a few ways it could. Look at the one example we have of a wyter like this - She That Strikes From Afar, the wyter of a Minor Classes Unit in the Bestiary. In that case the wyter can take physical form, and can blast out Madness spells at a vast rate (one per magic point per round, so 10 or so a round) as long as it has enough magic points, and it is in Mindllink with multiple priests who can keep feeding in magic points from their own resources, which presumably includes many storage matrices and bound spirits. The wyter can also attack physically engulfing multiple soldiers a round, which would be a reckless tactic, except probably multiple priests bolster its physical defences and healing and most of those in a position to physically attack it are already magically weakened. The (literally hundreds) of priests (and shamans, and sorcerers) that accompany it will also be assaulting the target position with summoned creatures, and the wyters main role is to lead the hundreds of discorporate priests etc so they all can attack the same physical target without getting lost in the spirit plane. But I think it also directly attacks. In some cases the wyter may be leading the fight against the defending wyter, though in many cases the defending wyter will be comparitively weak and out classed. A regimental level magical assault is a hell of a thing.

Yelm the Youth is lay member, so no. I don't think there is ever obligatory POW-sacrifice to a wyter.

I'm shying away from a campaign there for the moment because the rules don't currently support it well, and I think we need a lot of work there before they will do so. That aside though, - I agree with the Greek intellectually etc. Diving into Plato and neo-Platonism, a very idealistic and intellectually open culture, etc. Not necessarily historical Greeks, but as Greek philosophers imagined they could be. I don't go with the Russian onion domes etc, but a very Greek style of art. Timber forts and log houses definitely. They are obsessed with cleanliness and health, and I think a lot of cedar wood saunas and public spaces (some indoors too) for exercise. Yes. For formal and ceremonial occasions maybe. Day to day they avoid what is unnecessary. A warrior might wear a sword, but wear armour only when needed, a wizard actually doesn't need much of anything (their magic doesn't require them to be tall, unlike Rokari Zzaburi).

I think Loskalm avoids becoming the new Kingdom of War in large part by becoming the new God Learners. Like the God Learners, it works well - for a while. And after the direct threat of the KoW is gone, Loskalm is very ripe for internal conflict.

Yes, though I was using Zolathi to mean the dedicated mystics mentioned in The Fortunate Succession page 74. Its obviously linguistically related, but using same term used in context is clearer. For mystics who shun magic use there has to be a reason their presence brings terror to the population. I think it’s because they are the instruments of Shengs efforts to reshape Dara Happan religion to his plan, and bring brutal purges to anyone who does not obey. Shrugging off divine curses as mystics do, of course.

Source? Informed speculation. It fits what we currently know, and the existing game mechanics, pretty elegantly IMO. But if anyone has more info or a better theory, I’d love to hear it!

No. Jolaty is inverted-Kralorelan mysticism, plus turning Kralorelan torture into powerful austerities, as an ironic weapon against the hated empire The Bursts of Sheng’s Empire were Jolaty plus Kargzant. And probably that’s just the start of their magic. The Rays or Emanations were traditional Pentans, Kargzant worshippers, loyal to Sheng but not Jolaty fanatics. The Warmed were cults that submitted to Sheng, the Fires the Solar cults of Dara Happa. The Zolathi were Jolaty who were not nomad demigods in training, but who went among the Warmed and carried out Shengs will, primarily as it concerned magical/spiritual issues. Little magic themselves, but builders of an empire.

That theory would mean he died more than seven times, so its obviously not what I'm looking for. Certainly some references say becoming a Man-of-All involved a heroquest to the Courts of Silence, or it could have been something else. Gerlant and Talor and Jonat are all also named as Kaelith (though it could be something else - Jonat travelled to the Underworld otherwise, and Talor too was brought back in a Lightbbringers Quest.)

Because they are essentially the same as the early Golden Age. Just because they wanted to, doesn't mean they did, I don't think God Learner magic means they can mess with the Green Age any more than anyone else. Or maybe they did in some way and we will never know. True, But the EWF were certainly obsessed with trying, and Pavis magic to treat all Man as one certainly sounds like a Green Age kind of effect. I find this terminology unneccessarily confusing. The Sunstop is a First Age historical event to me. For purposes of discussion, I don't actually care. The same era as Lunar exploration of Wendaria - if you wish to argue with Lunar authorities that Etyries and Valare didn't truly visit the Green Age, go ahead. Which it doesn't as such Yes, cultists that do not have direct access to Green Age myth through their own cult can do so through the myths of other, related, cults, including hidden mystery cults, that have different myths.

On Arkat - I was interested in if there was a distinct source for him dying 7 times, as specific number. He is mentioned as a ‘kaelith’ in the Xeotam dialogues, one who has entered the Underworld and returned, which means the question of his death is “more semantics than substance”, seven sounds quite plausible - but is there a specific reference to that number somewhere?

I’m not implying you do. What you do have is a sophist attitude to the runes that says they actually have no real meaning at all. You literally agreed with me that Harmony could be Disorder, and then volunteered that Truth is Illusion. And this isn’t Illuminated ‘creating a deep mystical synthesis’, this just ‘the meaning is whatever I can argue at the time’. Which frankly, seems a pointless game to play. I think you have made a very fundamental mistake in the beginning, by trying to construct your entire argument around a binary division that was not meant to stand alone. Is music with Disorder be definition boring? Maybe not if it has Movement and change, a little emotion, love or conflict. Maybe even mixes Form. and mostly, the terminology just becomes meaningless. A Disorder god isn’t even necessarily part Trickster, it’s a specific term in the Gloranthan context, which you seem to want to redefine until you can apply it to literally anything you like and is thus meaningless. Which might be a clever Trick, but is ultimately nothing but an empty Illusion that destroys, not creates, meaning.

Actually, deception is probably more Illusion, as the opposite of Truth. So, I've reread Revealed Mythology looking for suggestions that support this interpretation, and I'm basically pretty baffled. I am assuming that this interpretation relies largely on the term 'Great Spirit Trick', which I interpreted as a 'skilfull/special way of doing something' rather than deception, because I can't really see any evidence of deception in context - Pamalt seems to find a clever way of defeating Chaos and the (by then, thoroughly corrupted by Vovisibor) Artmali, but deception does not seem to be involved. So that is extremely flimsy. His defence against Desero's Horde seems to be.. not fighting them? It takes a pretty odd mind set to think of NOT fighting as Disorderly. Attempting to avoid combat seems to be directly an invocation of Harmony even! And creating the Necklace is, again, a great feat of, if anything Harmony and cooperation. This is where this 'any act of change is the Trickster' nonsensical line of reasoning gets you - calling acts of Harmony Disorder, Truth as Lies, Black as White etc. You've certainly managed to convince me that your reasoning is flawed enough that pursuing it only leads into further confusion and error - the argument isn't just flimsy, but directly contradictory. You've essentially defined Trickster so broadly that: - culture heroes who define the right way to do things are all also part Trickster - acts of Harmony or Truth can be Trickster acts - while Trickster is known for being thoughtless and contradictory, using cleverness to benefit all is also an act of Trickster nature. I guess defining Trickster nature so broadly it is possessed even by the least Trickster gods doing the least Trickster acts is a Trickster sort of achievement but...

Allow me to point you to directly upthread, where Jeff says they do. I think that they probably differ from the Yelmalio standard gifts and geases in minor detail, but probably only minor.

And hey, isn't it a fascinating coincidence that: Sheng Seleris was a 'failed' mystic as well as a great Solar magician his lead warriors were said to follow a strict nomad lifestyle and get great magic from it Kargzant grants gifts and geases as one his greatest sources of magic, requiring strict adherence a mystic (eg Illuminate) may get many gifts, requiring him to follow a strict set of geases to obtain them, but break them with relative impunity if it becomes necessary A 'cheap and cheezy' way to create a powerful follower of the Sheng Seleris path is to have a Kargzant cultist who has enough gifts that they have very high skills including mastery of all cult weapons as a minimum, attributes at species maximum, permanently magically enhanced sight, and a bunch of other magical abilities. Though that is just the beginning - the most powerful have other tricks up their sleeve, including access to both Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant magic, and more (Kralori magic, for example).

The Pure Horse Tribe Yu-Kargzant and the Yelm cult differ in a few ways. The most notable of course is the Golden Bow shamanic cult. They also have quite different (but not totally) associated cults. But the other difference is that Yelm cult has the Yelm Imperator status, that you can only join if you are a legitimate significant temporal ruler, which is absent from Yu-Kargzant. I think the Pentan Pure Horse People are more likely to fight as Heavy cavalry than the Traditional Solar Kargzant tribes. And also much more magically powerful (both through the power of Golden Bow, and because Yu-Kargzant is far more powerful magically than Kargzant. But have lots of practical disadvantages, mostly related to horses not being as flexible or practical as a food source and herd animal. Note that in the modern Lunar Empire, since sometime post-Jannisor at least, maybe post-Sheng, the Yelm Imperator status is tightly controlled by the Emperor directly, and he now requires that they are also initiates of the Red Goddess (and therefore Illuminated), thus further unifying the Yelmic and Lunar control over the Empire far beyond his person (and the Lunarized bureaucracy). I don't think the Empire controls the Char-Un quite so much, but the Chieftains of the Char-Un still are usually Illuminated Red Goddess initiates. Yes. I think they also keep to the same age related social structure, roughly, but much less rigidly (with four different options for Warrior deity, though only Orlanth/West King Wind might be an option for Leader/Chieftain?). Eirithra is still a major womans deity, but maybe under another name?