davecake

There are some very fun ideas in the campaign log, like the Exigers, and the Suckerbunny Tree (someone beg Sandy to find the stats!), and a few ideas that probably don’t fly any more - his material on the hidden civilisation in the swamps not only is very dependent on RQ3 sorcery, but also I think features a demon who has wandered in direct from a Michael Moorcock book (Sreng of the Seven Swords)! Worth a read for Mister Man alone, Sandy’s Pamaltelan Trickster. There is a lot of information that Sandy dropped in chunks in the digest back in the day. Interesting things like Slarge magic and purple Slarge metal. Sandy mentions a few Pamaltelan things in his various Forgotten Secrets talks turned chapbooks for the Kraken. There is also a Robin Laws adventure set in Pamaltela in that series (about the spawn of the Mother of Monsters). An old Heroes magazine had a scenario by Sandy, the Big Hit, set in Fonrit. Heroes v1 #6. I can almost feel Jeff’s irritation at even mentioning it, but there were some fun ideas in the Mongoose Pamaltela material for minor peoples of Pamaltela, like plant people (not Aldryami). No idea if it was original to those sources (in which case, maybe best forgotten) or from some obscure Chaosium related source. There are a few other bits and pieces in Mongoose material, but mostly what is good isn’t original, and what’s original isn’t good. I believe Pamaltela was mentioned in a Hero Wars era document about the Chaos metaplot, but I’ve never read that document. I think about the huge Chaos enclave in the Nathan desert? I’ve been very interested in Pamaltela for decades, and have obsessively collected every scrap of info I can find (and written some of my own, which should make it to the JC eventually). Please feel free to ask me about anything I’ve mentioned, or that you’ve heard about.

The new Prosopedia has a fair bit of good information about Pamaltela, especially Fonrit and the Glorious ones, and the Doraddi. Revealed Mythology is still an essential resource, unfinished as it is. The Guide is essential too, obviously. The Pamaltela and Oceans book from the Stafford library is out of print, and almost everything in it is completely replaced by the Guide - but it does have a handful of pages about Doraddi myth that isn’t published anywhere else (and a few other such things about other subjects). The material by John Holmes I think is unlikely to ever be canonical, and I find is a bit of a clumsy fit with other Doraddi material, but it’s very much worth reading - that’s the original material from TOTRM 11. I use it more for the Fiwan than the Doraddi. Of course that issue also features the Pamalt cult full write up, which is again essential - for a few weeks, until a revised version is published in the Earth Cults book that will make it quite redundant. I think the Earth cults book also features a few lines about how Ernalda and Asrelia present as Faranar and Aleshmara? Likewise when the Fire Sky Cult book comes out, I think it will have information about how Lodril is worshipped as Balumbasta in Pamaltela. I think Jeff posted a while back something about Seseine. What we really need for Fonrit is an Ompalam writeup, but while I think a draft official write up may exist, I’ve never seen any details anywhere.

If you have a BG character who is not focused on skills for fighting and/or Search, Track, Listen, you are making a character that doesn’t benefit from the cult, and is unlikely to advance within it, and is seemingly not that interested in its core passions and function. It’s fine to be more focussed on the tracking them down part, or consider yourself more the scout than the fighter part of a military group or hunter team, but a diplomat sounds very much like a character that is in a different cult with almost opposite nature, and maybe sometimes hangs out with Babeester Gor members. While interesting to consider (and valid for Ernalda, who has God Talkers), I don’t think it’s the case for BG. (It was not in drafts of the Earth cults) BG axe maidens who are not strong with Death are only marginally more likely than Humakti who are not strong with Death. So, while not ruling it out as something that might happen due to extraordinary circumstances, it’s not something that normally happens.

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex. But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. (this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). Babeestor Gor is a Death cult - but more than that, their core role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have, rather than a professional specialty - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult.

In a sense they do, as they are part of the temple complex. But their role in looking after them is as defender. The BG cultists have to give up a role as mother/parent even to their own children. Initiation to BG involves giving up that part of life. It’s a specific rule of the cult. They can be distant aunts or cousins, but not nurturers. (this will clearer when the Earth cults book is out). Babeestor Gor is a Death cult. Their role is as killers of those who break oaths - this includes guarding temples, but guardians who are prepared to use lethal force. Guarding is one of the many roles the BGs have, but that’s more like one of the tasks they might have - a BG who only guards and never seeks out oathbroakers is like a Storm Bull who only guards against Chaos but never goes to fight it, one who doesn’t really do the core task of the cult.

Their are cults besides Ernalda and Babeester Gor. Killing is core to Babeester Gor, reproduction is core to Ernalda. The Earth Goddesses book will include Esrola and the other grain/land goddesses. I’d quite like to see the cults of lesser Earth goddesses like Delaeo or Delaina developed more (most likely to be as sub-cults of Ernalda), which could focus less on motherhood. But Ernalda clearly is intended to have reproduction at its core, and Babeester Gor is for killers.

A player who thinks that Babeester Gor doesn’t have enough good combat magic! When they are literally the cult with the best combat magic in the game! You were much more accommodating to them than I would have been, I’d just point out to them that the BG cult already grants the Strength spirit magic spell, and cults are more than a way to get cool spells. I do think a Babeester Gor and the idea of being a hunter are compatible, and my own Babeester Gor PC worked as a hunter for some years when the clan was too poor to support her as a professional warrior. But I’d think more Foundchild than Yinkin or Odayla (though she did not join another cult). I think few BG cultists are very sociable. There certainly are multiple ways to approach a BG, they are not all berserkers (or all careful hunters of men) for sure. But they are all sacred killers who must be willing to kill. There are relatively few dedicated Babeester Gor temples, usually they are part of Earth temple complexes - and it’s the Ernalda cult that takes in orphans. Including the the ones that are ‘mythic’ orphans but not actual ones, the children of Babeester Gor cultists who accidentally get pregnant (possibly in an incident involving a lot of beer) but must reject the child and give them to be raised by the temple. FWIW, I do think it is common to transfer between Earth cults, but not in the way suggested. I think it is very rare to move ‘horizontally’ between the Malign and Benign Earth cults (and most likely a one way change as a result of deep trauma and loss). But it’s considered normal to transfer ‘vertically’ as you age, just few people get very involved in Voria. But it’s the normal way for people to join Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia, by aging into it after being an initiate of a different cult earlier in life.

The sub-runes are used in the Gods books. But the best way of thinking about it is they express a limitation of the god, not their mortal worshippers. Himile has the Cold rune, and so he can grant magic that makes things cold, but he can’t grant magic that creates shadow or darkness. But a troll that worshipped Himile would still have the Darkness rune and could learn darkness magic from another source. It’s a little different with Yelmalios Light rune, because they are forbidden to use some Fire magic, but again it’s a limitation of the god not the worshipper - they could still learn Fire magic if they leave the cult - or indeed if they progress in the cult sufficiently that they can learn it in a way acceptable to the cult (such as learning Sunspear from Yelm).

Or Trithemius who seems to have literally invented a fair bit of early cryptography, as well as the idea of steganography, in part to conceal occult ideas within other books of occultism (that are actually more texts on cryptography). Which seems bafflingly opaque, but would actually be not an unreasonable approach if you were sharing what you thought might possibly be the sort of secrets that got the God Learners hunted down by assassins. Which is a sort of prevailing worry for any LM studying God Learner era sorcerous texts.

Remove from it whatever the God Learners did that was so wrong that things like the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods found it necessary to seek them out and destroy them. It's not even necessarily a moral judgement, but an empirical one - have the gods sent assassins to destroy everyone who knows what you know? if they haven't, good! If sorcery is neutral, but the God Learners were so bad that they caused cataclysms in which the gods/elder races/almost everyone tried to destroy them, then the Alien Combination Machine is a way to keep sorcery neutral by making it less God Learnery. But they don't exactly know what is the bad stuff (and they can't, because the knowledge has been destroyed, unless they accidentally replicate it, in which case too late) so they just remove stuff that seems suspect - which is basically everything obviously Western and Malkioni, translating it to things that are more trustworthy (=Theyalan). Yeah, and this is why I think the rules as written 'hey, just anyone can make up a spell they want' is way too easy. Sorcery as a system can (within reason, and the as-yet-undefined limits of sorcery*), but I think it's such harder - it requires expert sorcerers working for years, building on past work, etc. Probably a form of hero questing. I think creating new spells from nothing (rather than translating from existing grimoires) is very difficult. I think the LM cult expanding its sorcery skill well beyond Truth rune magic would be a work of many sages over many years working together, and that happens pretty seldom. You need not just mastery of the Rune, but existing spells etc to work from. They only have that knowledge for Truth rune magic - and really the LM cult has little incentive to master other areas. Of course it is possible though. The Buseri and Irripi Ontor cults have knowledge of celestial magic - the only reason LM doesn't too is their lack of interest. Irripi Ontor also has access too Lunar magic, also the references to Irripi Ontor using glamour seem to suggest Illusion knowledge but IO is much less conservative than LM and is presumably assisted through various hero questing and Lunar insights. And the Lunar College of Magic exists as a coordinating body to make sustained magical innovation in specific areas practical. But once the Sartar Magical Union gets going, who knows what happens. I'm inclined to think the Torvald Fragments are pretty much the only sorcery spells that the LM cult has available to them in easily usable form. They are in Elasa Script, and the LM sorcerers also commonly teach mastery of the central runes. I agree - but it's not just a matter of 'not in the curriculum'. They generally are very hard to find in translated form. Want to go an learn a bunch of celestial sorcery? Sure, we have a Buseri grimoire that explains it. You are going to have to learn Dara Happen though. Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them (they obviously can already read Dara Happan)? Information about many areas of sorcery can be found in the archives of LM temples - but mostly written in Western. Sometimes Auld Wyrmish, or Dara Happen, or Kralorelan. And trying to find training to Master the Fire rune, or Illusion or Sea rune in a LM temple? Such works are forbidden or restricted regardless of whether they are sorcerous in nature or not. But who knows what lurks in the hidden stacks. Of course, discovering them is often a sign that your temple in the past hosted vampires or Illuminates or worse. *compare Ars Magica (truly, the greatest game for a sorcery like magic system) which actually does have precisely defined limits of magic, just one of many ideas RQ sorcery could benefit from.

I don't think it is. The figure of Martalak is part of a mythic cycle whose main point is that sorcery is weak and a bad idea, and reinforced by their ideological enemies specifically to say they are wrong. It's not equivalent to the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerer of Idovanus - it's the equivalent of the Carmanians thinking of themselves as sorcerers of Malakinus. Or Aeolians calling their zzaburi caste meldeks. There literally are not any myths of Martalak without the underlying message that sorcery is in some way wrong or inferior to mysticism - so why would the Valkarists decide to identify themselves as inferior? Plus it makes no sense for them to do so while identifying as Malkioni. Its also poor quality God Learning, too, implying their exploration of the local mythology was lazy or shallow - Martalak isn't a cognate of Makan (you could make some sort of claim for anyone in the 'central' part of the various Dancer triads (Vith, Korudel, etc as being cognate to Makan), but Martalak, as specifically a sorcerer, is cognate to Zzabur. So they call it something else. I don't think I ever said the Valkarists do revere Makan, that would have been mainstream in Valkaro's era but if Valkaro is really inspired by Pilif and the early New Order he might be more revisionist in other ways and teach about Kionvara, or be more reactionary Hrestoli and revere Ferbrith etc. Valkaro was a God Learner sorcerer, though, and he largely thought that God Learner sorcerers deserved more power not less, so revering Makan doesn't seem too out of line either. I think we both agree that the modern Valkarists are going to be far less obsessed with the finer points of Malkioni theology than in the God Learner era. But Martalak is a name for something else, and more or less a slur on sorcery at that. The other references to Martalak make them seem to be more or less charm making village sorcerers, while the God Learners at the time were conquering the world and the otherworld. Can you point to anything that implies they aren't inferior to the God Learners in magical ability? Anything at all that even suggests it?

I think wyters are spirits that are magically linked to a community. Before they are linked to the community they are a different form of spirit. If they lose the link, they revert to what they were before (though weaker without the community support). Wyters probably gain new powers from community heroquests and great rituals.

While this is true, it seems likely Brithini sorcery would still be regarded as evil alien magic. Except for any Sages who are Illuminated Arkati, of course. Those relics probably live in the secret Special Collection section of the library.

The problem with the zenshin as sorcerers is that there is quite limited reason to think they are (apart from the description of Zaktirra), and their description as serving the gods and spirits of Vormain would suggest they are anything but sorcerers. If anything, it would suggest they are largely shamans.

Why do you think the Valkarists think of themselves as Martalak sorcerers? It's seems strange to me. Martalak can be considered the name of a local sorcerer tradition that seems quite manifestly inferior to a Middle Sea Empire era sorcerer. Or Martalak can be considered a local myth about sorcery that chiefly differs from Malkioni myth in that its main point is the inferiority of sorcery to mysticism - to agree that they are followers of Martalak is to agree that they are (nobly) wrong. And the Sheradpara doctrine is one promulgated largely by the Three Sages of the Eastern Seas Empire, whose main interaction with Valkaro is that he went to war against the Empire. Plus Martalak is of pre-Dawn origin, so Malkioni identifying themselves with Martalak would be to reject Hrestol? Valkaro preached the way of Malkion and converted the natives of the Ambovombe and surrounds. If they worshipped Martalak, that would seem a lot more like Valkaro being converted to East Island ways. Not that the Martalak sorcerers themselves care much about any of this - for them sorcery is a profession, not a religion. I agree with you that it matters very little which exact conception of Malkion the Valkarists believe. They probably haven't interacted a great deal with other Malkioni for centuries, and have no great incentive to start now given there are relatively few in the entire Eastern half of the lozenge. And are clearly heretics by orthodox Malkioni standards for their Pilifism anyway. My mention of Makanism vs Malkioneranism is more about method than theology. Mainstream Makanism derives knowledge from study of the Abiding Book and other law (and even holds that empiricism can be a source of error, pure intellect being superior to perception), Malkioneranism includes much more active hero questing (and more sinisterly, has its origins in Nysaloran era texts, so may have been a source of corruption of Malkionism by Illuminated ideas (whether Nysaloran or Arkati who can say). I think it seems much more likely that Valkaro fell on the Malkioneranist side of that divide, and his ideas about method (a more flexible relationship to theology, frequent otherworld exploration (that seems to happen a lot in Domdanalash with its tunnels into the underworld), and exploitation of the pagans resources) have probably held largely to this day. If anyone wants to make the Valkarists great villains (rather than the Le Guin derived image of gentle wizards of vaguely Taoist bent), Valkaro can certainly be cast as an arch-colonialist and/or the source of God Learner corruption that leads the Valkarists to repeat the God Learners mistakes. I think this only makes sense if your supposition that the Sages are actually sorcerers holds true, which I still think highly unlikely on several grounds. The Valkarists would be fairly effective as a naval power based on sea and weather magic, but not all of the Spearmen even seem to be warriors. They seem to be historically in regular conflict with both the Ludoch of the Alsporanjabbi tribe, and the Vormaino, and certainly conflict with the Vormaino heats up in the early Hero Wars era with the Reconquest of the Pure Lands.

The Open Seas spell seems to be this. Non Sorcerers can cast it reliably, sorcerers may be able to do a bit more (though this may be limited - possibly they can just cast it a bit more efficiently). But it’s described as being unusual. It may possibly also be limited to rituals.

Sorcery use amongst the LM Sages is also probably connected to the strong enthusiasm for the LM cult by the God Learners. Was LM as linked to sorcery in the First Age? Maybe. But they certainly seem to have embraced sorcery wholesale during the Second Age. And of course, it happened most in Nochet - which, as the greatest seaport in Genertela (probably all Glorantha) was a very notable point of interaction between the Lightbringers and the Middle Sea Empire. The HeroQuest Kingdom of Sartar book describes this as many LM Sages being confused into thinking that the Abiding Book was the same as the Eternal Book, when it really just contained secrets from the Eternal Book stolen by Zzabur. And the Alien Combination Machine purifies such knowledge by translating it back into Theyalan (almost certainly the Elasa Secrets script). It seems the result of a hero quest to find a way to retain the knowledge of all the nifty sorcery they had learned but severing its connecting with God Learning. It makes sense that Torvald would be a hero from Nochet where the study of sorcery was most valued, and that the most complete knowledge of the Torvald Fragments is housed there. Quite why they have only fragments is another interesting side question - and I suspect the answer is to do with Torvald getting caught up in the downfall of the God Learners somehow. Perhaps even just being on a boat caught in the Closing, but could be more, maybe the Gift Carriers came for him because he knew too much, he seems to have pulled off quite the God Learning feat himself. But if Torvald was a Second Age figure, it raises the question of whether the LM cult used sorcery prior to the Second Age and their learning sorcery from Western sources. It would suggest not, if prior to that point the Torvald Fragments and the Alien Communication Machine was not known to the cult. Another theory, though, is that LM is originally, or is the same as, a Western mythic entity, perhaps Tadenit the inventor of writing (and maybe Issaries likewise is the same as Kachast), and so it would make sense that LM has always had some sorcery, if embedded in deep knowledge of the Elasa Secrets. The LM cult also claims that its knowledge of alchemy, often linked to sorcery, was learnt from Mostal in the God Time. And, as Jeff has been making clear that Buserian and Lhankor Mhy have been recognised as the same entity since the First Age, what knowledge of sorcery they had or how do they understand its origins. Of course, most of this wouldn't be that well understood or acknowledged by most modern Sages.

Maybe. Martial Arts skill is a knowledge skill, after all.

In the draft version, it doesn’t use any skill and is cast able by non-sorcerers, but is noted as being unusual.

I want to make the distinction here between the theory and practice. I think some forms of sorcery absolutely share their theoretical basis with schools of martial arts. But that doesn’t mean that martial arts and sorcery are the same practice. Rather, it’s more like the way some traditional Chinese martial arts eg tai chi (I’m a practitioner, and have read some of the classic texts), Chinese traditional medicine, and some Taoist sorcery, can have a lot of theory in common, lots of stuff about channels of chi etc, but they are quite different practices that must be learnt and developed separately.

There are degrees of antigodliness, and I think the definition of antigod is not consistent, certainly over historical time. I remember @metcalph at one stage saying that he thought Parloth vs Antigods was really about Above and Below, not mystic vs everyone else, and I disagreed with him strongly at the time, but now I think there is some sense to it (though it’s not ‘official’). Maybe it once was defined more that way, and otherwise was a bit looser in definition. And then the Three Sages and the Empire of Mokato systemised everything in a very mysticism centric way, and invented or popularised the idea of Sheradpara (‘when we say you are an antigod, we don’t necessarily mean evil, just wrong. But you are wrong’), a so redefined Sheradpara, so they could make the definition of antigod as ‘not-mystic’ - there is definitely some sleight of hand there, though. I think the average East Islander tends to treat the idea of Sheradpara, as something the sages lecture you about, and don’t really get get too hung up on the exact definition of antigod, no one pays much attention to pragmatically. And most mystics don’t even get very hung up on the strict binary division of the world into godly and anti godly - after all, they are mystics. But Andins, Eresteenes, are clearly actual monsters.

I think the opposite, but for the same reasons. The Sheradpara are mostly essentially standins for local practitioners outside any central tradition and outside the ‘mysticism first’ Mokato Consensus of the Three Sages. Festanur isn’t a tradition, it’s a collective name for multiple shamanic traditions so the mystics can tell you how to react to shamans. Martalak isn’t really anything unified, just a name for sorcerers that aren’t Valkarists (or other recognised group like Waertagi or Vadeli), if a random sorcerer came and set up shop he’d be referred to as a Martalak magician. Ombararu I’ve made a little different - I’ve made it a professional priest class of pan-Island ritualist, that exists to facilitate worship of the Parloth despite the impracticality of gathering a sufficiently sized group of initiates for worship on the great majority of islands (in our East Isles books), but the classification as Sheradpara is really the Three Sages telling you how you should feel about worshipping the gods in a non-mystic way (worshipping the gods in a sufficiently mystic way - eg Marnalin worship - is of course noble and much preferred, being a core part of the Mokato Consensus. This was one of the reasons it was necessary to form a large empire, so they could let everyone they were worshipping the gods wrong and gently lead them to the correct way). In Vormain the concept of Sheradpara is unnecessary. The Joserui are right, however you worship them, regardless of method, according to the Emperor. Even the over the top malevolence of Zaktirra is a useful tool of Empire. If you differ on a particular Joserui, or a particular method of magic, or a fine point of mystic theory or practice, you can encouraged to attempt to prove it in contests of magic or martial arts, but there is explicitly no consensus.

My feeling is that Valkaro denounces the political entity that is the Middle Sea Empire, rather than God Learner sorcery in general, though remaining against tne worst excesses of God Learning such as the FDR and Zistorism, and generally against the excesses of greed and power seeking colonialism. Though as to whether he falls on the Makanist or Malkioneranist side of the divide, and other such theological questions, I’m not sure, so the extent of his de-God Learnering is unknown. He certainly seems to be certainly very much Malkioni, and probably quite Hrestoli. In fact there is really frustratingly little info on Valkaro, a bit less than there is on his modern day followers. Anyone got the Valkarist character writeup from How The West Was One available? I suspect there is some info in there not found elsewhere? Of course the Valkarists have had centuries to diverge from that point, most of which they spent cut off from all other Malkioni - they could have diverged a lot.

The FDR being God Learners gives us a pretty big clue about many of the magics they used (though not their core innovations, true). They would have used God Learner sorcery, and favoured cults like LM and Issaries, as well as whatever ‘false draconic’ techniques (including the POIM) they developed.

I think there are sound reasons both historical and ontological to have sorcery associated with alchemy, including the existence of Quicksilver Mostali and the ancient Ekozite school of sorcery, so it appears alchemy is largely derived from the Brithini knowledge that comes straight from Zzaburs Blue Book, perhaps in turn derived from Mostali sources. That doesn’t mean alchemy is sorcery under the rules, though, rather that they have the same underlying theory. Alchemy as a skill in the rules represents method, not theory, and its likely that much Chalana Arroy alchemical knowledge in particular is derived from quite un-Mostali knowledge of plants and animals (which may or may not be independently developed - the Arroin cult is probably the source, and they are Western in origin). The RQG rules (which admittedly are pretty limited) treat alchemy as both a secret of Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy, and as limited to various healing purposes (for wounds, poisons, disease) and poisons. The Lhankor Mhy knowledge of sorcery is said to derive from Mostal though - but of course the original source of alchemical knowledge doesn’t preclude that LM and CA (who do exchange alchemical knowledge - they don’t treat it as a secret from each other, as closely allied Lightbringers) may not have developed a lot of alchemical lore and recipes over the centuries, and are not just rote learning from old Zzaburi and Mostali sources. It also seems likely that more Mostali alchemy that we usually think is concerned with biology and healing though - the Quicksilver dwarves are the ‘medics’ of the dwarves, as well as the food providers (though their knowledge is clearly mineral based as much as they can). The differing ideas of alchemy as the study of transmuting materials, especially metals and minerals, based on deep magical/Runic lore, and alchemy as a practical activity mostly valued for its powerful healing capabilities for biological beings, probably don’t represent two different versions of alchemy, just the difference between pure and applied knowledge. One thing that comes more from the other side of alchemy, and which isn’t given RQG rules (but is mentioned in the skill description) is producing acids, I’d probably just say it not being given rules is mostly to not give players rules for weaponising it, but alchemists can do so with access to the right materials (though the insanely powerful nature of RQ acids implies they might be magical in nature). The more exotic alchemical creations of previous editions, especially the spell potions and and magic point restoring potions of RQ2, seem like they might require both alchemy and sorcery (presuming they still exist all, but I presume so - though probably not spirit magic based?), though, so I think there is still a place for alchemist sorcerers to do something special. Other useful spells for alchemical sorcery are easy to imagine. Non-sorcerer alchemy remains useful without it.