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davecake

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Everything posted by davecake

  1. Almost, but not quite, a more or less orthodox Yelmic view. The myth in GRoY is that Yelm splits into parts, and one part goes to hell, one part remains behind as Antirius, etc. it means the Yelmites don’t have the same issues about whether the Little Sun is the Sun (obviously, Antitius is a specific part of the Sun, and it’s perfectly fine to worship a specific part, just like body of Yelm is reduced to the holy fire of Enverinus which is also a part worthy of separate worship, the soul part is Bijiif and descends to the underworld, and was/is a separate part, etc). But I don’t it solves the regional sub god problem. They still think those other gods are just confused - the light of Yelm left behind is Antirius. They still experienced the Sun Swirl.
  2. Generally speaking, a fair call. Not just recent. Goes back at least as far as the RQ3 Prosopaedia
  3. Indeed - but why does it make intuitive sense that the god will let the worshipper make that decision on their behalf? It does because we are used to Issaries having that power. And of course we know there are many circumstances in which the gods understanding of who they are giving their magic to, and what they use it for, is limited - most notably Illumination. The idea that the gods should be anthropomorphised regarding their motives and agency as regarding their magic is an intuitive, and I'm sure common, one, but one that appears pretty clearly often untrue. I actually said Atyar, not Thanatar - Consume Mind allows permanent use of some of the Rune magic of the consumed mind. I find the notion that if Thanatar can gain other gods Rune magic reusably by Consuming the Mind, Vivamort can gain it more temporarily by consuming their soul, entirely intuitive. But YMMV, and YGWV, most certainly. Given the huge amount of cool vampire lore published in other bits of popular culture since RQ2 days, I like to keep my options open for vampiric wickedness. The promised monograph on vampires by Mark Rein*splat*Hagen is still outstanding from the Guide kickstarter, but it would be nice to have something that, err,..casts light on isn't really the right metaphor, but explains the broader range of vampirism in modern Glorantha a bit more, with reference to Nontraya, Nysalor era vampire kings, how it is perceived by modern sorcery, etc.
  4. I find the discussion of Illumination in HQG quite useful, and the discussion of Lunar Illumination in the Pavis 7M writeup quite helpful. But it is very messily expressed in ILH 2. The notion of Occlusion is useful in its simplest form - but its simplest form is simply that some Illuminates may consider other Illuminates misguided and crazy, and the Lunars have institutionalised this as a way of controlling its Illuminated population. Do something that is obviously crazy and seems to go against Lunar doctrine, and someone (a Lunar Examiner, or a higher personage up to the Emperor) will eventually either declare it to be Illuminated insight (and therefore good) or evidence of Occlusion (and therefore very bad).
  5. You can't become 'unIlluminated'. It changes you permanently. But you can stop moving forward past that point. You can become entangled with the world, and as a result further from union with the One/Void/Silence etc.
  6. As Peter says - it's not mentioned in the Bestiary. But if you want Vampires to have it in your game, why not? It was a power they had in RQ2 and RQ3. Or it might be a power some vampires have, perhaps even as a result of some horrific vampire ritual or heroquest. As Peter says it doesn't make intuitive sense to everybody that the gods let spells be stolen this way - but it doesn't necessary make sense that they let spells be stole by Atyar or traded by Issaries etc either. And vampires are certainly mean enough. In RQ2/Cults of Terror they had Rune Magic but with entirely different mechanics for gaining it - in RQ3 Vampires had to rely on sorcery. RQG seems to have a bet each way, implying the cult has both special sorcerous rituals and Rune spells - I guess we won't really know until the RQG replacement for Cults of Terror is out.
  7. Jeff, no one is questioning your authority, even if we seem confused about your decisions and motivations. I think I was being very clear - if you wanted to make RQG more compatible with other material, including your own companies HeroQuest products, Six Ages, etc. I was suggesting how it would be easy to do so. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever why you do not want to do that, but I respect your authority to not do so. However, as someone who regularly plays more than one of your companies games, and enjoys other current Glorantha material, I prefer it when they all refer to the same Glorantha, and will generally house rule accordingly.
  8. I think the idea that Sheng Seleris is connected to Androgeus an entirely unnecessary complication to someone who already has a great story, and based on nothing more than a speculation. I find the Jaldon Toothmaker theory a bit more convincing, because there is a lot that is weird and unknown about Jaldon, and he seems to have some connections to very ancient/unknown things, which connects well with Androgeus being so ancient.
  9. Above a certain level of power, basically around the Hero level, RQG is going to break down simply because we don't have the heroquesting (and more importantly, rewards of heroquesting) rules. So Sheng, as likely super-hero level, is well beyond that that. He has dozens of huge heroquest powers, a looted collection of magical artifacts, spirits at his command that are essentially minor gods in power, and is surrounded by companions that are experienced heroquesters themselves. But mysticism doesn't complicate that too much. Consider Sheng (or at least his dedicated followers, who are essentially mini Sheng's) as Illuminated fanatics who have access to a very wide range of Solar powers from all the solar Pentan, and optionally Pelorian, deities (are Rune Lord/Priests of multiple Solar religions), are quite likely powerful shamans too, and then beef them up with as many shamanic powers and the equivalent of Gifts (including big attribute boosts) as you want - and then assume that for expert mystics/Illuminates, breaking Geases and Taboos represents only a minor inconvenience for them, so their big collection of enhancements is effectively free. Of course, in theory all that geas and taboo breaking hinders their spiritual progress, but if they don't care, what does it matter? I've recently faced a similar issue, as Jar-Eel has turned up in my game. Though so far all she has done has played a tune on her harp, causing an Illumination chance for all listeners, and given most of them a Devotion (or similar) passion for her. The question of what else she might do should anyone be silly enough to attack her is unlikely to arise, but I want to be prepared when it happens.
  10. It is the economy that confuses me. Training is already incredibly expensive - it costs 500 L for an attribute training attempt, which requires 2 seasons. So training costs more than the living expenses of most nobles (200L)! So the Gloranthan equivalent of gym instructors are already incredibly wealthy - and now you tell me they don't even have to work full time!
  11. I really appreciate that this excerpt has evolved significantly from earlier drafts. It still has a fair bit of the retconned 'Elmal non est hoc' flavour, but much less. I think it demonstrates, though, that the issues of publishing format and retconning the nature, history and powers of Elmal are quite separate. Elmal in that excerpt is still quite different from the God presented in S:KoH, Coming Storm and 11 Lights, such as removing the deep horse/Redalda connection, and it is hard to reconcile the history presented in Six Ages with Elmal being a regional Kethaelan variation. A few sentences could fix most of the game information to be compatible with those sources, and effectively remove 90% of the retcon issues. For example: Elmal is able to use the spirit magic spells of Fire Arrow and Fire Blade. Elmal has the spells Shield from Orlanth, and Command Horse from Redalda. He is also associated with Pole Star, under the Orlanthi name Rigsdal, and receives the spell Star Sight. Elmal is not associated with Yelm. Their worshippers generally do not receive gifts and geases. The warriors of the cult generally fight with spears and bows, but as Orlanthi warriors, they do not generally fight in a phalanx, and they tend to be light cavalry and strongly associated with the raising of horses. There is a tradition in a small number of clans that allows Elmal warriors to become chiefs or thanes — this is similar to becoming a Thane of the Orlanth Rex cult, and uses similar Orlanthi tribal rites, but Elmal initiates do not get access to the Command Priests spell.
  12. I would have thought the implied subservience to the Northern Emperor in the name Yelmalio was one of the big points of separation - I could see Sun Domers continuing to call their deity Elmal (Yelmalio is really more a title than a name, after all), I think loyal Sartarite Emali would feel pretty awkward about 'Yelmalio'. I guess it still happens, but I think it would be mostly outsiders who say it (eg the way many non-religious people today tend to think of all Protestants, if not all Christians, as the same)
  13. Honestly, I have absolutely no idea why, for major variations within the area covered by play, you would not do option 2 when the opportunity presents itself, just with a short writeup that instead says 'many people believe these two cults to be the same cosmically, but here are the pragmatic differences between the religions as practiced'. Presenting option 2 as inappropriate by referring to what the God Learners said seems to me to be conflating the issues of mythological difference with the practicalities of writing and publishing. I appreciate the practicalities of the very 'God Learnerised' approach of just treating very similar deities as regional variations, especially when it is deities that PCs are unlikely to play (eg Buserian). But if there was every to be published a Pamaltelan supplement, for example, I'd hope it had an 'option 2' properly explaining the myths of Balumbasta, rather than saying 'you can probably figure it out by putting it together the mentions in a Pelorian focussed writeup of Lodril'. Whether or not to provide more focussed detail on regional variations should depend on being able to find a reason to spend the time and effort on doing so, rather than harking back to in world mythological debates. Of course Chaosium are the publishers, and I certainly accept that when trying to cover as much as possible in a big foundation book like Gods of Glorantha you need to make a lot of decisions about which things to prioritise and what can instead be covered with a quick paragraph about using another deity as a template, but this explanation of why regional focus is always inappropriate for God Learner reasons seems weird to me.
  14. One of the Many Suns cults is worshipped by plants in large part as a god of photosynthesis. Just the fact that it has a huge non-human following should be a case for pretty significant divergence. Leaving aside the various other more minor issues, including that Yelmalio alone has been both dragon friend and major dragon fighter, that the cult has been both specialists in fighting horse cults and the major horse cult in different places. And then there is the issue that that many of the differences aren't there only because you retconned them away. If you don't think there is significant divergence within the Many Suns, it is because you aren't looking.
  15. Also, the builder is not necessarily the same as the most notorious inhabitant.
  16. davecake

    Spirit rune

    To extend on this point - your Rune rating in HeroQuest represents not just your RQG Rune rating, but also your Rune Points in an appropriate god, your associated spirit magic, and some related skills, and some more besides. Statements about Runes in one game do not translate to statements about the other. And they don't even share the same set of Runes, as far as the game rules go.
  17. Yes, but... unless you are the Impala people (who are renowned for being masters of that tactic), you may have to fight a tribe who is better at it than you are, in which case it is no longer a good tactic.
  18. davecake

    Spirit rune

    That is for HeroQuest. And (with due respect to David Scott) it is only partly true, and it is at best a special case, at worst a bit of a mess. Normally you do not need the Spirit Rune unless you are a shaman. But for RuneQuest, the same things that would have been represented by your Spirit rune in HeroQuest are represented different in RuneQuest. The two games operate at very different levels of abstraction, and so some things just don't work the same way. (and obviously, the same applies to 13th Age) Having a percentage in a Rune isn't a fundamental truth of Glorantha, it is an abstracted game representation, like hit points.
  19. Some people might say that. The Kralori would surely describe it differently, maybe imply it to be Sekeverian.
  20. davecake

    Spirit rune

    In RQ the Spirit Rune is something spirits have, as David says. In HeroQuest, it means something different - it represents your ability to deal directly with the spirit world, that abstracts together a bunch of things, including, but not limited to, the various 'Spirit' skills, shaman abilities, Fetch POW, etc.
  21. There are three Lanbril gangs in Pavis - the two largest (the Hole Lords and Harli's men) seem to be made up of adult gang members (only the third largest, Knobbys Nippers, seem to be youths. The street gangs are different, but more bored youths not yet established in their own lives with a strong sense of territorialism, rather than career criminals. Most gangs are too small. They are organisations, not communities. To the extent that they do, this is more like a spirit cult than a wyter (and, of course, this is exactly what Black Fang is). Orlanth the Thief is a pretty well established tradition. Works for both small groups of Orlanthi exiled from their clan lands for some reason, and individuals. Dark Walk is of course a fantastic spell for a thief, but they also have plenty of spells that will help them get into places they shouldn't, and make getaways when necessary. An ancestor worship clan makes a pretty good magic for a criminal gang related by blood. Discorporation is quite handy for casing a target, and ancestors can have a lot of knowledge of thief skills and special spells to pass on, and there is a strong sense of loyalty. Shamans can add a range of spirit cults for other magical purposes.
  22. Peter, you had an entirely different theory about Iffinbix and the Agipith root in 1997! I like the psychedelic Mee Vorala connection myself! Apparently in the same era, I thought Iffinbix was the city magician 'cult', and that they officially died out (but actually became corrupted by vampirism, and are the source of the vampires in Blind Kings Hill, with knowledge stolen from Delecti, and connected to the vampires in Dyskund Caverns), but these days I would (in light of Ian Thompsons excellent Masks of Pavis material) associate that whole plotline with Potonis. Celestial Empire sorcery connected to a weird misguided mysticism and Kralorelan alchemy sounds a fruitful avenue of exploration.
  23. In the Guide, it says about Androgeus and the coincidence of Goldtooth and Goldentooth seems suggestive, and of course Jaldon Goldentooth is otherwise weird and has unknown origins. The Yellow Bear is presumed to be the same Yellow Bear that lives in the Yellow Bear Hills in Fronela, a petty god from the First Age, which has no connection, but Androgeus has lived since long before the dawn and wandered all over Glorantha. I have no idea who the other three are. I also have no idea why Androgeus would be linked to Sheng Seleris.
  24. Yes. There are still differences, but if you try to treat one cult as the other, such as by trying to regain Rune Points in the 'wrong' temple, you will likely succeed, because it is the same entity. But then, the same is true of many pairs, or more, deities that are treated as different by their worshippers (Dendara/Ernalda, Veskarthan/Lodril/Balumbasta, etc). There are still difference in cultural context, 'mythic history', religious context. An example of the cultural context is the Yelmalio cult, being closer to Dara Happa, is, among other things, a bit more patriarchal, a bit less connected to the Heortling clan structure and more connected to a cult hierarchy, and a bit more about collective action (and in particular, fighting as a phalanx). The Elmal cult is a bit more integrated to a standard Heortling clan structure, fits into (adapted) clan hierarchy, and a bit more about individual heroism, and fighting mounted. Halamao is a bit more into... photosynthesis? Also being an elf, not being human, and defending forests, etc. This reflects within the rules mostly in the societies they form, and the skills they teach. An example of the 'mythic history' is that their mythology does differ a litte, but also different heroes and sects have shown different ways their god can be approached, and related to other powers. Elmal rejects Yelm and accepts the friendship of Orlanth, and as a result major heroquests play out a bit differently. This manifests within the rules mostly in *minor* changes to the core cult spells etc. I think these are pretty minor - IMG Elmal gets better magic as an individual initiate, because they were aided by Orlanth at the Hill of Gold etc and so didn't lose as much power to Zorak Zoran - which mostly means they still have access to Fire Arrow and Fire Blade and Ignite spirit magic (and use them enthusiastically). But in doing so, they lost the active connection to Yelm, so when it gets to the higher levels of the cult, their connection to Fire/Yelm is weaker - they have no access to Sunspear. Also, the Elmal version of the Hill of Gold HeroQuest might get them better Fire magic and/or let them defeat Inora or fight of ZZ, but at the expense of the physical immortality that Yelmalio gets, which is frankly a pretty poor deal (mind you, possibly still better than Antirius, who personally gets badly injured (but saves the Emperor from his own folly)). What exactly this means in Runic terms, is a mystery argument that really doesn't matter much - I think their access to eg Fire elementals is much the same. On the other hand, the Beren the Rider tradition has a lot to do with the history of Elmal, and has lead to a lasting link with the Redalda cult, which gives Elmal better access to horse magic. Which ties in well with their cultural role within the Orlanthi of specialising in horse raising and mounted combat. Also, IMG, the Gifts and Geases are a lingering remnant of the various mystic traditions that were a core part of the Yelmalio tradition in the first and second Age, and the Elmal cult is less excited about them. But there is enough cultural cross over that if you want your Elmal guy to have them, no problem. The religious context is really the cultural context in religious terms - in game terms, which associated cults are available. Some things are relatively constant. Almost every Little Sun variant acknowledges the connection to Ernalda. Many acknowledge Aldrya, but only a few have an active connection to elven communities - except elf Halamao cultists, for whom this is the most important associated cult by far, and active cross membership is common. Most have some acknowedgement of the Vrimak/Bird connection, but only in First Blessed is there an active Vrimak cult that enables cross membership, and more exotic bird connections such as maybr ridable hawks or mounted avilry. And of course Elmal has the horse connections. And Yelmalio has the Yelm connections - which are far more significant in areas were the Yelm cult is common. There are always tricks and subtlties - Yu-Kargzant and Yelm may be mythically the same, but that doesn't mean they religiously have the same relationship to Yelmalio. The relationship with Yelm the Father in Dara Happa, and Yelm as worshipped by the female elves
  25. The Doraddi kings are unusual in Doraddi society, because while Doraddi in general are semi-nomadic, the kings are associated with a specific geographical area, usually a specific river valley or oasis. They get voted in or out (in Jolar and Kothar anyway) but (from GtG pg 22) They aren't specifically war leaders - most of the time, they are more or less the opposite, as they must please the women, who mostly shun warlike cults and mostly (as members of the Faranar or Aleshmara traditions) are far more interested in wealth and trade (and in Doraddi society, war is usually a fairly poor way to generate wealth - the Kresh may, however, have changed that). Of course, they may also coordinate responses to other threats, such as bandits and monsters and angry fiwan or non-humans, so the warriors usually have jobs to do, but a true (as opposed to symbolic or ritual) war is unusual. Note that besides being voted out of office by the women, kings also have to consider that many of the inhabitants of their land are semi-nomadic. If there is a shortage of food, or if a nearby valley is obviously doing much better, entire households will just up and leave. War will, of course, attract some people, but it also puts of others - and the people it attracts, mostly young unmarried Vangono men of the warrior societies, are generally considered trouble makers. I think the King of the Arbennan, a sort of king of kings/overking, is usually a position of limited practical importance, consulted to organise the settling of disputes between lesser chiefs and kings. Only in unusual times of war do they become really important in day to day matters.
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