Tywyll

On 3/11/2019 at 9:27 AM, CBDunkerson said:

Read the example. It answers every one of those questions. Or: 'yes', 'yes', 'no'.

Don't have the product.

In addition, I was planning on giving Sorcerers the powers of a Shaman from RQG. I don't like Shaman as concepts in RQ, but I like their mechanics. So swap sorcery (BRP/Elric style) for Spirit Magic and Fetches become demons). 

So I was thinking of adding Elric/Magic World demon summoning to my current Crucible of Dragons (OpenQuest) game which primarily uses RQ4/RQG/RQ2 as the rule set. So I want it to be cool and powerful but not too imbalanced.

Some thoughts-

A lesser demon weapon/armor cannot add more damage/protection than the base item could do. If your weapon does d8, the demon form cannot do more than 2d8. Meanwhile, if you have 5 point armor suit, your demon version cannot be more than 10 (since I don't use random armor, the armor trait grants a +1 armor per level/mp spent).
 

Greater Demons can break this rule, but each 2 steps they increase requires they have an additional 1d8 POW. So a Greater Demon with 5d8 Pow could be bound as a weapon that went 4 steps above the weapon's base die.

Damage that penetrates a demon armor's AV inflicts damage to the demon's Con first. As normal, demons without regeneration cannot be 'healed' or 'repaired' on the mortal plane. Crits that ignore armor inflict damage straight to the demon's Con. (I'm debating if demon armor is immune to normal weapons and can only be harmed by enchanted or Bladesharp boosted weapons).

Demon Armor and weapons can be further augmented by buffing spells as normal.

Binding to a demon weapon/armor require a POWvsPOW struggle by the would be new user (not the binder) to control. Success costs 1 POW, failure means the weapon always fumbles and the armor simply cannot be put on.

Each bound demon the character possesses reduces their Rune Points by 1, permanently (not max, just current). Gods loathe demons, except certain Chaotic/Evil ones.

How does this sound?

On 3/9/2019 at 3:53 PM, CBDunkerson said:

See the Vasana example on page 424. She started out as a Warrior, but once she became a Rune Lord she is treated as a Noble.

Does she receive a noble's pay check though? Like, does the cult shower her with goods and wealth (that she then tithes back)? Is she supposed to work land and go kill Chaos (or whatever Cult duty she might have)? I always though Rune Lords were more free agents, typical adventureers in type, except when the cult called them in. 

On 3/9/2019 at 1:13 PM, Joerg said:

Very good questions.

Technically, all the plunder from an adventure belongs to the sponsor of the adventure (typically the temple or the clan chief or someone like Duke Raus) who will then generously allow the party to keep most of it. He has no obligation to do so, but will be hard put to find parties risking their necks for him if he is too stingy.

I'd argue that most Runelords seem to be free agents, coming and going where they are needed. Granted they may take a mission from a Priest but they are just as likely to muck in where they think they are needed. I think one version of RQ actually said that their time  wasn't proscribed as other cult levels but when called they had to do what the cult needed. 

On 3/9/2019 at 1:13 PM, Joerg said:

Living with your clan, there are rather few things you can really claim as your own. Plunder rewarded by the chieftain does count as personal or at least family property.

Having this decision taken out of player hands probably doesn't go down well with people used to D&D (-inspired computer games) and its modern day views on property, which is why these aspects of Bronze Age society are carefully left untouched in most campaigns I have been told of or have been in.

If your income has gone to the clan, then the clan also has the obligation to pay the tithe.

Do you really own the item in the sense that you can pack it up, go to Nochet, sell it and have a season of debauchery? Or do you carry it on behalf of your chieftain, and are expected to return it to serve the clan?

Yes, per various versions of RQ, Rune Lords absolutely own things on their own. 

On 3/9/2019 at 1:11 PM, CBDunkerson said:

Based on the writeups and examples in RQG I got the impression that you only had to tithe the income from your occupation.

There is no mention of having to tithe any of the loot recovered in the Vasana's Saga writeup on page 407. On the same page the standard 20% to the temples and 10% to the Lunars are described as percentages of the harvest. Other taxes are listed, but they are generally smaller and for specific circumstances / areas. Then on page 422 in the annual harvest / accounting writeup it is said that characters should pay cult tithes "from their occupation income".

Nowhere is there any suggestion that magic items or even coins and valuables gained from adventuring are subject to the 20 / 30 / 90 percent 'income' taxes. That could certainly be assumed, but then it would seem odd that there are detailed rules for how occupation income must be taxed and not a word about spoils of adventuring or war. If you take enemy weapons and armor do you have to pay for those? Gifts from other party members or inheritance from family?

My take is that for the vast majority of people the occupation income is the only source of income and thus it is the one which gets taxed. There is no 'Heortling IRS' with special rules covering every conceivable form of wealth transfer. Rather, there is a simple system based on occupation income which generates plenty of revenue to cover expenses. That's why the taxes are collected at Sacred Time after the harvest... because the income of most people is tied to the harvest. If they were actively seeking adventuring income they'd want to collect taxes on at least a seasonal basis so that they could collect some of it before the adventurers drank it all away or lost it in their next reckless scheme.

That's kinda my take too. WAaaay back in RQ2 it says 'any magic items you cannot personally use' had to be turned over, so that at least spelt it out clearly. It also uses the word income, not spoils and such. Which makes me wonder if what it's really referring to is when you train other cult members and the pay you'd get from that and teaching spells. If that was what they originally meant for you to return. 

On 3/9/2019 at 11:29 AM, Sumath said:

You have to declare them, at least, so the cult can determine their worth. Valuing items will vary but the POW used to create them is a useful rule of thumb - I'd say 30-60L per point of POW, depending upon demand for such objects, and how generous you're feeling as GM.

Many you value POW really cheaply! I doubt any PC would gladly hand over a POW sacrifice for an NPC at that price!

RQ4 (the unpublished one) put POW at 1000-2000 L per point, based on how much skill was also involved. 

On 3/9/2019 at 11:29 AM, Sumath said:

Splitting treasure between party members should happen in the same way it does in other games - cash gets split proportionately, and magic items go to those who can make best use of them. Encourage the PCs to make a case for keeping an item, or for agreeing quid pro quo between them. Of course, sometimes they will still end up having to surrender an item they've secured to their cult anyway.

If the party have recovered a single ancient treasure that cannot be divided, then that in itself may become the trigger for a further session - perhaps things turn political, with local cult leaders falling out over what should happen to the item, and local tensions rising? Perhaps the only way to retain the item is if the recipient assists the other cults to find treasures of equal value? Or between associated cults some agreement may be established where each temple gets the benefit of the object for a season or a year at a time.

Always an interesting development!

2 hours ago, CBDunkerson said:

Based on the writeups and examples in RQG I got the impression that you only had to tithe the income from your occupation.

There is no mention of having to tithe any of the loot recovered in the Vasana's Saga writeup on page 407. On the same page the standard 20% to the temples and 10% to the Lunars are described as percentages of the harvest. Other taxes are listed, but they are generally smaller and for specific circumstances / areas. Then on page 422 in the annual harvest / accounting writeup it is said that characters should pay cult tithes "from their occupation income".

Nowhere is there any suggestion that magic items or even coins and valuables gained from adventuring are subject to the 20 / 30 / 90 percent 'income' taxes. That could certainly be assumed, but then it would seem odd that there are detailed rules for how occupation income must be taxed and not a word about spoils of adventuring or war. If you take enemy weapons and armor do you have to pay for those? Gifts from other party members or inheritance from family?

My take is that for the vast majority of people the occupation income is the only source of income and thus it is the one which gets taxed. There is no 'Heortling IRS' with special rules covering every conceivable form of wealth transfer. Rather, there is a simple system based on occupation income which generates plenty of revenue to cover expenses. That's why the taxes are collected at Sacred Time after the harvest... because the income of most people is tied to the harvest. If they were actively seeking adventuring income they'd want to collect taxes on at least a seasonal basis so that they could collect some of it before the adventurers drank it all away or lost it in their next reckless scheme.

That makes sense but what is the occupational income of a Rune Lord?

So you do have to give them over? How do you value them?

Also, what happens when mixed runelords journey? How do they split treasure?

Do Rune Priests and Lords have to tithe magic items they find? If so, how is value determined?  RQ4 is the only version I know of that actually broke down the value of magic items (though Plunder had crazy values for items), 

If you are, how do rune levels ever get to keep items they find?

Do items you enchant yourself also count for tithing?

On 2/25/2019 at 2:46 AM, Questbird said:

Hmm. Sorry I haven't had to rule on these.

Ah, okay... but if you had to, what do you think you would do? 

For the healing I would say that Heal X would heal X points. That's easy enough.

Still not sure about the attack spells, Crit spells (possibly Pow v Pow, damage that ignores armor...maybe 1d3 per letter grade?). 

5 hours ago, Chaot said:

There's the additional issue of players deciding how the melds will work together. If you use it, I would suggest sitting down with the players and going over what's possible. I also like how Chaos points add to you MP total.

That being said, go read Gods of Law if you haven't yet. Awesome stuff.

I actually have physical copies of both GoL and GoC!  I missed using your Allegiance as MP... that's cool. I don't recall GoL having much in it though (for magic I mean, it had lots of awesome otherwise and didn't it have mook rules?). 

On 6/19/2011 at 2:45 AM, soltakss said:

Is this what you were after?

I know this is Thread Necromancy of the highest order...but any idea what happened to the file you were referencing? Anyway I could get a copy if you still have one?

16 hours ago, Questbird said:

Thanks for sharing that! I'm extremely interested in your Spell Law conversion. Some questions though-

1) Learning Spells-What breakpoint are spells picked up in your system? 1 every 5% I assume?

The skill gives you access to the whole spell list, so as your skill increases to the level that you could cast it you gain access to it. You get -5% to cast per level of the spell so yes you are correct that it's one level of spells per 5% of skill increase.

So you can attempt any spell as soon as you have the skill? 

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2) How do Channelers and Mentalists learn spells if they aren't linked to a skill?

They know all the spells in their list; they just need the power to cast them; either from their deity for Channelers or from their inner resources for mentalists. I haven't had the problem of Channelers trying to get many lists with low skills. Channelers' access to lists on character creation would be limited by their deity anyway.

Do Channelers and Mentalists actually use spell list skills? 

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3) Please oh please tell me you have some notes on converting specific spells to BRP!

Not really. 😜 I have usually played it by ear. In practice, my players have cast spells < lvl 10 which tend to be relatively low-powered so I've just allowed them as written.

How did you do spells that inflict crits? Like a spell to make a weapon do a flaming crit of equal severity?

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4) Did you use bonuses and penalties straight? I.e. if a SL spell gave you a +10 that was a +10% in BRP?

Yes, pretty much.

Awesome

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5) How did you handle damage spells?

6) How did you handle spells that inflict X Crit instead of damage?

I haven't had to rule on these much but there are a few Rolemaster-Runequest damage conversion rules around (Creatures and Treasures I think has a conversion chart at the back of the book).

Darn. Okay, I'll check my copy.

Edit-Upon checking, there are only guidelines for converting RQ monsters into RM ones. There is no guidance on what to do with their damage.

So what would you do for a shock bolt? Fire bolt? Fire Ball? Do you just let Heal X Heal that many HP (because clearly the 1d10, 3d10, etc is out of whack for BRP).

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7) Was their any mechanic governing difficulty in learning the different spell lists? For example, were Open Lists easier to learn/advance faster than Closed lists?

No, I allowed any lists on character creation (remember, each list is a skill which requires points allocation) as long as the player could justify it. The nice thing about this system is that no two sorcerers will be exactly the same. Learning new lists in play would rely on access to appropriate teachers/cults/tomes etc. so it might be more restricted.

Ah, so did you ditch the idea of 'class lists'? Like could a Essence user learn any Essence list (Magician, DAbbler, etc). Oh, and how did you handle Hybrid and Semi-spell users?

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😎 While I balk at the straight 1 to 1 PP, that actually fits RM2 for average casters (at least beginning characters who probably only get 1 PP per level). Did you convert things like Spell Multipliers and Daily devices?

I haven't needed to.

Okay.

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I have a lot of love for RM...even if the system is terribly slow and clunky and I would probably never run it again. Still, the character options and magic system was always a bright spot for me.

I never played RM though I collected some of the books. But the diversity of the spell lists is appealing and works well for me in my campaigns.

It's a system that has awesome character creation but where combat can be interminally slow (unless you luck out and get a fatal or incapacitating crit).

2 hours ago, clarence said:

I’m afraid not. The retro version is only in Swedish. The closest you can get is Trudvang Chronicles from the same company. As said earlier, Trudvang Chronicles is a quite distant relative to BRP. Some people love the system, some not so much. But the art and setting is fantastic. 

That's a huge bummer. Has there ever been any english translations of DoD?

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:16 PM, muminalver said:

I am so... Hyped...

Thread Necromancy is go!

My god this stuff is beautiful. Did any of it ever get translated into English?

On 2/16/2019 at 6:39 PM, Chaot said:

Download Gods of Law and check out the Virtues system. Much different than Stormbringer.

Also Corum: Chaotic Melds, Contrivances, Fetishes, Elemental Tattoos.

Dug it up and saw what you meant. I had totally forgotten about Chaotic Melds (probably because they never struck me as that usable in play...1d8 rounds to prepare a spell that might only last a few rounds as well). However, it has some interesting ideas. Thanks for reminding me. If you put in some sort of method of attuning to melds (so they could be cast freely) AND kept the summoning melds you would end up with a nice Ars Magica divide of Rotes and Spontaneous Magic. Maybe you could learn a Meld by sacrificing a POW, probably make the spells not instant but instead take 1 SR per MP. Also have to  standardise the duration somehow. 

2 hours ago, Questbird said:

I use a few magic systems which I've cobbled together from other games but they suit my style of play and probably not yours (entirely). I play mostly a low-power magic world, so that will turn you off. However I do like strategic and long-term spell casting, and these are not in your list so that might interest you.

I happily use Spell Law in my BRP games. I treat each spell list as a particular magical skill, which can increase with use as normal. To cast a spell you roll your skill - (spell level x5%). Magic point cost is the spell level if it works, or 1 if it doesn't. As your skill increases in each list you automatically gain access to the harder spells in the list. Works quite nicely, and the diversity of the spell lists allows you to make very different spell casters.

For Channeling spells (equivalent of Runequest Divine spells) they automatically work. The magic point cost is 1 from the caster and the rest from Allegiance points to your god (go do some deeds your deity approves of to get more).

 For Mentalism spells there's no magic point cost. You use (POW - spell level) x5 to see if it works. If it doesn't you get more and more Fatigued, as per BGB p.32 (except I added one level). If you want to learn to cast the most powerful Mentalism spells in Spell Law you'd better work on increasing your POW.

Fatigue levels:

Psychically drained: Mentalism skill rolls Difficult
Tired: All skill rolls Difficult (equiv. CONx3 rounds of physical exertion)
Spent: Stamina roll required for any activity; skills at one quarter normal (equiv. CONx4 rounds of physical exertion)
Exhausted: Difficult Stamina roll for any activity; skills max = POW x 1 (equiv. CONx10 rounds of physical exertion)

Thanks for sharing that! I'm extremely interested in your Spell Law conversion. Some questions though-

1) Learning Spells-What breakpoint are spells picked up in your system? 1 every 5% I assume?

2) How do Channelers and Mentalists learn spells if they aren't linked to a skill?

3) Please oh please tell me you have some notes on converting specific spells to BRP!

4) Did you use bonuses and penalties straight? I.e. if a SL spell gave you a +10 that was a +10% in BRP?

5) How did you handle damage spells?

6) How did you handle spells that inflict X Crit instead of damage?

7) Was their any mechanic governing difficulty in learning the different spell lists? For example, were Open Lists easier to learn/advance faster than Closed lists?

😎 While I balk at the straight 1 to 1 PP, that actually fits RM2 for average casters (at least beginning characters who probably only get 1 PP per level). Did you convert things like Spell Multipliers and Daily devices?

I have a lot of love for RM...even if the system is terribly slow and clunky and I would probably never run it again. Still, the character options and magic system was always a bright spot for me. 

On 2/16/2019 at 7:03 PM, Sigtrygg said:

Since HarnMaster is pretty close to being a BRP game have you considered the magic rules in there?

Or if you want the perfect rules then adapt Ars Magica - five skills for technique and ten for forms - it worked for me

I'll admit that I have zero familiarity with Harn other than it being the big weird simulationist game on the block. It was always too expensive for what it was for me to really investigate it. And god, the PDFs are so expensive. But if you can point me at the bare minimum I would need to grok it I might give it a go.

I would LOVE to see your house rules... 😍

On 2/16/2019 at 6:39 PM, Chaot said:

Download Gods of Law and check out the Virtues system. Much different than Stormbringer.

Also Corum: Chaotic Melds, Contrivances, Fetishes, Elemental Tattoos.

Is that the third party Corum or was there one from Mongoose? I have (had?) a copy of that but haven't seen it in ages. I remember it has a sort of a variation on Virtues from Stormbringer but I don't recall the other stuff you mentioned. Thanks for reminding me!

On 2/16/2019 at 1:26 AM, Raleel said:

1. Gifts and Blessings - just straight powers. You get something like Nightvision or burrowing or something else. 

Ah right, the old Cult Powers from Elric Mongoose. Got it.

On 2/16/2019 at 1:26 AM, Raleel said:

1. Well, they won't be struggling off Wrack or Magic Missile or Fireball or Lightning Bolt Theism's Lightning because they don't get much armor against them. Wrack is half armor, magic missile is no armor no dodge, fireball is half armor and will set you on fire and no armor against that. Lightning Bolt offers no armor, and can set you on fire. Lighting offers very high damage AND no armor.

Ah okay, that's cool. Thanks!

43 minutes ago, rsanford said:

What are your thoughts on Stormbringers Eastern Magic? Also there is the Magic World Advanced Sorcey.

Also what about Classic Fantasy?

Wasn't Advanced Sorcery just rehashing the magic from Elric (like the stuff from Bronze Grimoire)?

I like the Eastern Magic ideas, but it is so vague I think it would take a lot of work to sell it and run it with players. I will check out the file in the Download section that has a more advanced version of it. 

48 minutes ago, Raleel said:

Additionally, Luther Arkwright has a Psionics system that is single skill based and a little simpler than the core book ones. M-Space has one as well, and they are different. After the Vampire Wars has half-fae mutations, which are functionally powers. Mythras also has Gifts and chaos blessings which aren't really sorcery-like at all, but more powers. 

Gifts and Blessings? How do those work?

48 minutes ago, Raleel said:

You could do something like Classic Fantasy for their traveling spells and Sorcery for rituals. Essentially, one for the tower one for the road.

Thats an interesting idea.

48 minutes ago, Raleel said:

I would point out that no warrior is shrugging off Wrack or Magic Missile or Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Or frankly Theism's Lightning.

Why not? Does Mythras reduce potential AP dramatically? I know the attack spells are very low damage out put. Though admittedly fireball is armor piercing and I think Lightning ignores metal armor?

1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

We are working on some streamlining. On the other hand, the system is designed to mix well only with OpenQuest and Legend / Mythras. Using it with classic BRP may require more tweaking.

Any hope on a breakdown of how it works for dumbdumbs like me?

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

It does function. It just might not be functioning the way you want it to. 

Or the way the main setting it was designed for does. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

 

Special successes, such as slashes, crushes and impales come up 20% of the time. Then there is the STR/SIZ dfamage bonus and magical enhancements such as bladesharp. So the guy with 19 armor should have a lot to worry about.

20% of the time? Only if everyone you face has 100%+ Skills. 

And why? A broadsword does 1d8+1 and usually +1d4. Versus average soldiers (per RQ modules) even experienced soldiers rarely have a Bladesharp higher than 4. That's 17 damage without a special. So...no, he really doesn't. Yes, there are other weapons, but the common ones fall around there. A guy with a greatsword is a potential threat, but him hitting max damage is less likely (3 dice to max out). 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, that is the problem with die adds. I think the original dagger damage of 1D6 was better. 

Part of the difficulty here has to do with how damage is handled in general. In most RPGs damage either drops you outright, impairs you in some way, or can be ignored. In real life, someone who can "fight off attackers" could bleed to death a while later. But you don't get stuff like that in most RPGs. 

That's fair, and I don't want Rolemaster levels of complexity, but neither do I want brittle characters. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

One idea I had, a long time ago, was to reduce the weapon damages and just double the damage die per success level. So a weapon might do 1D4 or 1D6 or a normal success, 2D4/2D6 on a special, and 4D4/4D6 on a critical. Damage bonus modified the die size rolled. So someone who had a +1D4 db would just roll a die one step larger.  The idea was that most weapons wouldn't do much damage on minor hits and glancing blows, but would get deadly when they connected in a vital spot (i.e. rolled a better success level). The orgnial version had another success level too, and I was debating between 1D/2D/3D/4D and 1D/2D/4D/8D.

That's an interesting idea. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

 

 

Well that's a false expectation on two levels:

First off in RQ being experienced doesn't make you any more resilient. The idea isn''t that someone can take a hit that they couldn't before (as in D&D) but that they will be better able to prevent such a hit from occurring in the first place, than to improved dodge and parry scores. I once had a group of D&D players who constantly got butchered in RQ because they kept trying to judge encounters according to D&D standards-namely that a fight wasn't a "good fight" unless they had taken at least half their hit points in damage. In RQ, if you are getting knocked down to half hit points, you're in trouble. 

Secondly, people think that as their characters get more experienced they will find it easier to survive. That's not entirely true. What happens in play is that as the PCs get more experienced they end up facing more dangerous opponents. So lethality increases. A Runelord is more liekly to die from a lucky crtical hit than a novice, becuase his oppoents have a better chance of rolling a higher success level. 

Facing greater threats isn't unique to RQ. But I think the instant death factor is (shared slightly with RM). 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

THat's something that Greg said a longf time ago. If you want something differernt you will either half to houserule it or play something else, such as HeroQuest.

Sure it does, depending on the style of play. If you want to do a full time dungeon crawl, then you are going to have a lot of casualties. Yes, magic can offset a lot of thins and bring people back from the dead, but basically that's RQ/BRP. There is always a slight chance that a lucky hit will kill off a PC. 

I don't care about lucky hits and crits taking characters out. I'm talking about general survivability and the ability to emulate the source material with heroes that can take on armies. That's as much a part of Glorantha and by extension RQ, though the fluff never matched the crunch. Wanting it to square up is not a bad thing. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I know some people who play D&D that dislike RQ because of this, and like you think that it doesn't d well for long term play. I know other people who prefer RQ and Pendragon for Long term play because they find such danger to keep the game exciting. They consider "balanced" encounters to be boring because they know that there is no significant risk and they can fiogure out what the outcome is going to be before they even start the encounter. 

I'm not talking about Combat as Sport. I prefer Combat as War. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

What must it be "balanced"? You seem to have strong ideas of how a RPG should be designed, and that RQ/BRP isn't designed that way. If that's the case, why do you want to play it? If "balance" is important to you, why not play an RPG that is designed to be balanced, as opposed to one that isn't? 

Balance may be the wrong word choice. Usable? Satisfying? Playable? A magic system where casters get one spell a day and, unlike DND, that spell isn't guarenteed to end a fight, is not a well designed one. 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

But, I'll warn you now that your results won't meet your expectations, because this system is designed to be more lethal than what you are expecting. There no steady decline in hit points like in D&D. If you don't like that, then you're really not going to like the the way the game plays. 

Except, in some versions there is. Strengthening Enchantment added to total HP is one way, long term to, to provide more survivability to a character. Hell, you even have the BGB Heroic character optional rule (double HP). So, let's stop acting like I'm the only one who's ever had these thoughts or concerns. 

And dude, you can quit telling me how BRP plays. I've played RQ, CoC, and Stormbringer since the 80's on and off. I know what it does and doesn't do. I also know that its a flexible system that many have molded and twisted to do different things. So I will continue to look and see if someone has come up to answers to my own issues with the system. Feel free to stop asking me not to.