Jeff

Just to put this all into some sort of perspective, here's a breakdown of how many independents there are: 

You can see that the main groups are the Rhino, Pol-Joni, and Baboons. Other includes any as yet unknown groups.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Apologies if this is answered clearly already, but I'm not finding it... (noting that a number of threads on the topic are a number of years old)

One of my players is a Grazelander, and he's looking to join another cult.

A) What cults could he reasonably join? (I'm sticking with Solar at the moment...).

Ernalda and Yelm are the big ones, but there are also Maran Gor, Polaris, Babeester Gor, Foundchild, Humakt, and even Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, 7 Mothers, etc. Just check out the chart at the end of the Mythology book. 

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

B) what benefits would that give him?

 

(so, basically, I'm asking about what's going to come out in the Solar cults book)

Yelm and Polaris get the full treatment in the Solars book.

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Since Kargzant is like Yelmalio, but different - what are the differences for Grazelander worshippers? (I've read they get Kuschile Archery, but that seems pointless!)

What about Polaris? Antirius? Any Star Captains?

(I've also read that the Associated cults for Y-K are different for Yelm from the book... maybe.... so, who would they actually be? (or, if faster, who isn't?))

Yelmalio is not a big thing among the Pure Horse People, as they can contact Yelm directly. Polaris is known, but a pretty minor cult. 

29 minutes ago, hix said:

@Jeff Thank you for an honest and well considered reply.

" The end user of the program has cut up the works of others, reassembled them, and is passing it off an unauthorised derivative work"

This is exactly the misconception I am addressing. GAI do not do this. They do not combine previously existing work, they learn from it, and the amount learned from any potentially copyrighted work is clearly de minimis. But maybe that doesn't count since it's not a person. Let me get specific about my own workflow on the cover for Smoke and Aces, and I'll leave it to the audience to make up their own mind. While the amount of effort involved does not determine copyright status, this will illustrate the fact that my cover is a transformative work, and that ai tools can be used well.

-Plan out each figure for gen, choose a style (comic book, strong outlines, white background)

-gen each prompt dozens of times looking for something that has some motion and movement in it

-edit each image in photoshop to remove ai slop, ensure consistent style, and make everything make visual sense. These are minor edits like removing an extra finger, a weird squiggle on a face, closing a line to change the color of an eye, and so on.

-adjust the color of each image using photoshop to add bold color and visual appeal, add the branding and the text

-use layout software to collage all these images, cropping and editing along the way

Remember, as far as the legal system is concerned the GAI does not perform ANY transformable or copyrightable activity. It cannot. It is not a person and is not an intermediary between the copyright image or text and the user. So from the perspective of copyright law we have loads of copy-written works that end up being cut up and reassembled. You shouldn't take someone else's work and draw over it and expect to survive a copyright challenge - any more than George Harrison should have let "He's So Fine" get stuck in his head as he created "My Sweet Lord". 

1 hour ago, hix said:

@g33k You just Fumbled your Idea roll. I dropped articles from disinterested parties and legal decisions, you're going to have to do better than "trust me bro, it's self evident, check out this pic of the joker behind a paywall"

You are aware that the judge did not dismiss the copyright infringement claim against Stability AI? To me that is the crux of the matter here. Remember, these programs are NOT people and, at least as far as the USPTO is concerned, cannot create transformative work - they are just "dumb machines". There's no "creative work" in the way that phrase is used in intellectual property law. The end user of the program has cut up the works of others, reassembled them, and is passing it off an unauthorised derivative work. You might dig the result, might not care about the impact on the artist's ability to continue to get paid - but in the end, I cannot see how one gets away from the copyright violation unless you "train the machine" (again I put that in quotations because the very terminology we use can actually be very misleading) on a walled garden of materials that you own the rights to make derivative use.

But until the appellate courts come to some consensus (or the SCOTUS hears a case), this will likely trundle on like Napster until it doesn't.

7 hours ago, hix said:

That FAQ could have been completed without calling those who use generative tools plagiarists. Especially without any proof. Photoshop has generative tools now.

As long as these tools "train" by using the copyright material of others without their permission (let alone compensation), that is exactly what they are. The copyright infringement issue with AI tools is far greater and far more serious than its proponents seem to be willing to acknowledge. 

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Rolling back all the way to that particular opening crawl reveals something: "broo reproduction" doesn't appear in print until Borderlands decides to reveal or invent that narrative. Before that, broos are, like Iggy Pop says about the "philistines" in the movie Dead Man, mostly just real dirty people . . . "given to atrocities and foul practices" but mostly spreading diseases. This becomes their "Mallia" aspect that supports their role as mercenary muscle in Nomad Gods, RQ1-2 and so on. Or another way to say it is that Mallia is the entity who shamans can summon within the rules of the Jaldon Games.

Thed comes later and I encourage people to read the COT version closely. If you find anything sexualized in this era, shout it out. To me, these broos come off more like S. Clay Wilson bikers than anything else, maybe with a Kenneth Anger scorpio rising vibe. There's no parasitic pregnancy motif, which tells us that while Alien has come and gone theatrically and home video exists, it doesn't seem to make much of an impression on Greg or Sandy until 1982. They wouldn't hold a revelation like that back, especially when the Thed layout ends with significant page space to fill and they were already throwing everything Sandy could think of to stretch as far as they could.

After Borderlands, the "broo as sexual violence" and "Thed as rape goddess" narratives get rolling with Noyeep in the Big Rubble (1983) and forty years later here we are. But Borderlands functions as the literal crossroads at which we meet the devil, as it were. You still have the "Mallia" broos, who are basically all the females (closing a loophole in COT) as well as the males who "dislike all-male associations." That's a strange thread. Does it mean all Thedists are gay? Or is each of them the only male that matters in their perspective, so that everything else is potentially a "wife" and a "mother" to your children? The one unspoken rule here seems to be that they can't or won't or don't like to impregnate each other, or else only the strongest broo would survive beyond two seasons +1d8 weeks and we know that they can coexist in relatively stable gangs for a lot longer than that.

Another thing that's interesting is the reference to "varied maternity." I know we've talked about Wire Mother and Soft Mother before but every male broo has a choice of which mommy to follow in terms of how they relate to the larval host. RQ3 Thed obliterates any surrogates. Her broo might not identify with her or emulate her so much as she (as a ghost and not a conventional goddess) yearns to emulate them. She gets them to do things to recapitulate her trauma. In the RQ3 accounts, that trauma is all she has left. In that ecology, there are no other women, just an appetite for new victims. 

I feel like many of the more deliberately occult NPCs in LOT and DOLAD reflect these complicated and polymorphous family and gender identities, where a son can be a daughter and a brother and also a wife. But Mallia is simpler. By definition she's the other woman and that's really it. When you emulate her, you are not the cruel absent mother. You're your own woman. The boys become carriers of your complex, spreading her sign. And this is the broo mother you can contact in the Jaldon Games. The stepmother can be approachable in ways the mother never is.

Where is this going? First, IMG Thed is a perversion of the Covenant because her cult deliberately blurs the taboo relationship between herd and harem. Her broos don't have wives and their children don't have mothers. They have plenty of meat but they don't get milk as a baby. She's one of the things that happen when something goes very wrong with the meat. Nobody who observes the Peaceful Cut will countenance any of this. Prax can't afford to tolerate chaos. Life is already too rough in their broken world to intentionally make things worse.

Second, Thed's association with the Crack spell is poignant in light of both Dorasta's ruined cleft and the "breaking of the vessels" that seeds creation in the zohar or wherever. She knows how to break everything. Maybe in a demiurgic context she has wisdom to provide but it's hard to say . . . sooner or later, people who have delved her mysteries end up functionally equivalent to broos. On the way from here to there you find the mysterious Cacodemon character in the courts of chaos, son of the devil (looking at you Argin Terror, we've barely touched on the West) and grandson of Thed. He's fond of ogres, who start to look a lot like broos when you breed out the obvious goat strains. 
 

There's an awful lot in there to unpack and I recommend people digest it very carefully. I think you are right - between 1981 and 1982, the broo went from evil philistines to embodiments of trauma who must continually recreate that trauma in order for the species to survive. They were warped by the cosmic rape that resulted in Wakboth, and became microcosms of it. They are sentient endoparasites - quite aware of what they do to survive. They became true nightmares - like Vivamort's vampires and Thanatar's heads. 

2 hours ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

I was wondering when you’d show up! Welcome! I’d invite you to feast, but it is a dishonorable thing to make a man break his geasa.

Instead, since you have more resources and experience than I do, let me ask: where do you think the association with Thed and goats came from, from a Doylist standpoint? It’s nowhere in evidence in Nomad Gods, and BoHM saves all of its goat imagery for Ragnaglar and Eurmal, but it’s a very popular fandom association despite that.

You ever have a goat? Well Greg did, as a living lawnmower back when he was in Berkeley. I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the source of the association - that plus Lévi's Baphomet of course.

But by Doylist are you meaning in the Misfits' sense of the name?

 

As an aside, prior to the birth of Wakboth, Thed was a fertility goddess married to the Ragnaglar the Mad God, one of the Air Gods. Their children were the Broos, who were originally untainted by chaos. All stories agree that the Mad God, Thed, and Mallia were motivated by jealousy and pride to usurp the functions of the world and to become its unchallenged rulers. Together they formed the Unholy Trio and brought Chaos into the world in the form of Wakboth. Thed was the mother of Wakboth, and his malevolence twisted and distorted his mother in childbirth - as a result, the Broos are twisted and distorted by Chaos, both physically and spiritually. 

We know the rest of the story. Storm Bull killed Ragnaglar. Mallia left the conspiracy. Kyger Litor killed and skinned Thed, leaving only her ghost. Thed haunts the world, a twisted and distorted spirit, who still commands her hapless (and tormented) children.

Caladraland's main involvement in the Hero Wars is as a seemingly inexhaustible source of mercenaries.  Porthomeka and Vinavale are the main recruitment areas, and it is worth mentioning that they are the most Orlanthi (the Orlanth cult is nearly as big as Caladra & Aurelion there, and much bigger than Lodril). The Maran Gor, Humakt, and Yelmalio cultists are also sources of mercenaries. At first they fight mainly for the Esrolian cities, but as the Hero Wars progress they no doubt get recruited by Argrath's allies and end up fighting in Dragon Pass and Peloria.

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

 

Jeff posted in 2019

A few notes on the Torkani:

Argan Argar is the tribal patron god. He is worshiped as a consort of Ernalda, as is Orlanth. Humakt is the most important war god, although Storm Bull is also popular. All the Lightbringers are worshiped. 

Their Rex cult is unique - as the tribal leaders need to worship Argan Argar in conjunction with Orlanth Rex.

 

So I think the answer is "Your Rex cult for the Torkani May Vary"

Yeah, well I realised that was not right, as the Sartar Book will make clear.

On 2/29/2024 at 3:01 AM, metcalph said:

Until the Solar Book comes out, we have to make do with inferences from the Prosopedia.

EHILM:  Doubled Fire Runes.  p33 "Among the Orlanthi of Ralios and Fronela, Ehilm is the Sun God".

GALANIN:  Doubled Fire Runes.  Beast. p42 "(T)he Sun Horse, who carries the solar disk Ehilm across the Sky Dome"

I would suggest that Ehilm's cult is Solar worship mounted to the cult of Galanin.  Most worshippers are simply initiates of Galanin with horse-riding magics.  The rune levels among them can become initiates of Ehilm with access to his fiery magics.  They wouldn't have Sunspear (as that seems to be a Dara Happan thing)

FWIW something else that I noticed:

GAMARA: No runes given.  "She  is depicted as a horse pulling a chariot with the solar disk" p43.

YU-KARGZANT:  Fire.  Life.  Death p141 "Yu-kargzant is depicted as a solar disk surmounted atop a golden horse."

It seems to me that the Pure Hose People were influenced by the God Learners when they were allies in Prax and that's how they made the transition from their God is the Sun Disk drawn by a chariot to their God is a Sun Disk atop a Horse.  The Life/Death duality in the Grazeland cult might be the result of their adoption by Ironhoof

 

A few notes on cults of the above.

EHILM: Has no cult. He's too abstract and impersonal to devote direct through and is worshiped through intermediaries.

GALANIN: Yelmalio with Ehilm as an associated god. That's where you can get some solar magic.

GAMARA: Hippoi.

YU-KARGZANT: That's Yelm. The Pure Horse People were not chariot folk. That was the Yelmalio worshiping Starlight Tribes.

14 hours ago, Ironwall said:

So where do the Ralian Orlanthi come from Mythically. Additionally what are the religious and cultural differences from the more known Heortling Orlanthi.

Mythically? The stories of Orlanth and the Lightbringers are well-known in Ralios. Orlanth and the storm gods were powerful throughout Glorantha, and they have plenty of places of power in Ralios, especially in the mountains. 

Historically, the Orlanth cult came to Ralios in the First Age from Dragon Pass and was brought by the Theyalan missionaries. By the time of the Gbaji Wars, the Orlanth cult had been well established in Ralios for more than a century. The cult was in communication with Dragon Pass throughout the Second Age. However, with the Dragonkill War in 1120, it lost contact with Dragon Pass and developed independently. For example, the cult has had far more interaction with the Malkioni than the Dragon Pass Orlanthi, and has little experience of the Lunar Empire (other than viewing the Red Moon as a Bad Thing).

In truth, the big problem with the Garhound contest is that Argan Argar hates Chaos. It isn't the Storm Bull question - it is how the heck did an ogre become an initiate of a cult that hates Chaos! And that requires the initiate swear loyalty to their priest.

Which to be honest, has always been my issue with that scenario.

13 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

• The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants

I don't think the Rune spell 'False Form' is listed as being part of the ogre's repertoire in Sun County, but it would solve the problem if it was

As much as I generally get what you are saying, I don't think Lunar tolerance/Sor Eel's presence would actually work in this case

If the Stormbull manages to restrain themselves enough to rush over the the organisers (difficult but not impossible) and says 'That Daro guy is Chaos! I felt it earlier and just followed him around to make sure it wasn't someone else. Hell, yes I'm certain. He's got to be an ogre'" I simply cannot see the Garhound Contest organisers saying: "Well, because there are Lunars here, we will have to accept him as a valid suitor for Ernalda."  The mythic implications of allowing this are too vast. They would have no choice but to act - at the least by rallying some more Stormbulls for confirmation

So without the existence of the 'False Form' spell, this scenario is an example of the kind of scenario-challenge I am pondering

But in this case, with the existence of the FF spell, it is a moot problem here anyway

I don't think you appreciate how much having Sor-eel present changes things. Sor-eel is a leading member of one of the most powerful families in the Lunar Empire. He has no real superior beyond the Red Emperor and his court. His cousin is a demigoddess, and he is the Lunar ruler of Prax. This festival is permitted only by his forbearance.

Sor-eel is there with Bor-eel and Radak the Iron Centurion and 50 members of his bodyguard. Which means if Sor-eel says Daro stays because the Lunar Way demands tolerance of Chaos, then he stays. And if the peasants organizing this festival want to disagree, they likely recall that not all that long ago Sor-eel had pretty much all members of Dorasar's family murdered. And those 50 armed, professional elite mercenaries with Sor-eel are likely more than a match for whatever is there in Garhound. 

And if you are thinking general rebellion, well a few hours away are several hundred more Lunar soldiers.

And what Storm Bulls do you think are present here?  

1 hour ago, General Confusion said:

The answer to all of this is 'Storm Bulls can't be trusted'.

 

Yeah, the Storm Bulls claim that they can detect chaotic entities. But, uh. . . They can't prove it! Storm Bulls are violent, paranoid, selfish fanatics. When they come through they drink all the beer, break your furniture, insult people, get into fights - some of which end with death - and then just fuck off rather than deal with the consequences of any of that. They aren't part of normal society, they're dangerous bikers. And they don't even agree with each other half the time!

You can't set up a 'scientific' scanning system using Storm Bulls. Let's say you put an actual ogre in front of twelve bullies; ok, two of them detect him as Chaotic (remember, Sense Chaos percentages tend to be pretty low in-game). The other ten don't. Now what? There's an argument among the bullies, which may well turn into a brawl. Half of them are drunk, or otherwise anesthetizing their PTSD.They probably kill the guy just to be sure, the two who decided he's Chaotic sure don't want to let him leave the room alive; then they search the body to find evidence that confirmed their impulse. They probably find something.

 

Now replace the ogre with a totally normal, non- chaotic person. Same result! The odds of at least one of the bullies fumbling, getting a false positive, and declaring the victim chaotic in front of this incredibly hanging-inclined jury are fairly high. So now there's been a murder. And they probably can't find any physical evidence justifying it, this time.

At this point, either the judicial powers of the Storm Bulls are removed or there is a pogrom that kills a whole bunch of people. 

Yep. So in most Orlanthi societies, Storm Bull is at least taken seriously. Same as in Prax. But in many other cultures, Storm Bull is viewed as a raving murderous berserk. A tinfoil hat nutcase with serious anger management issues. 

And in the Lunar Empire the official reaction is, so what? OK, so that guy has a Chaotic taint. Assuming we even believe you, so what?

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

No "published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things".

Yep.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

 

If I extend this to setting rather than scenario and Glorantha rather than just RuneQuest, then off the top of my head:

• Runequest Bestiary: Ogre entry "Ogres look very human, generally passing for human in all walks of civilization" (runes include chaos 60%)". How is this possible?

 

Yep. They pass for human in all walks for civilization. But if the Storm Bull cult is present and respected, they are in danger.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Garhound Contest/Melisande's Hand (Sun County), with an Ogre as one of the contestants

 

Under Lunar Occupation, which is one of the exceptions. The Pol-Joni contestant is a Storm Bull worshiper and MIGHT detect Chaos, but given that Sor-eel is present, I don't think that will change the scenario.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Corn Dolls (Sandheart volume 2), with a hidden cult of Mallia

 

Not a Chaosium product, so can't comment.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Coming Storm, with the whole Red Cow clan and Ogres issue

 

Not a RuneQuest product. I wouldn't do that scenario that way in RQ.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Bad Day at Duck Rock, with hidden ogres and Thanatari

 

Not Chaosium products, so I can't comment.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• The Lost Valley scenarios (The Smoking Ruin and other stories), which may play out very differently with Harawin Moonsister radiating her 35% chaos rune to any Storm Bull in the party

 

Yep, it might. If there are Storm Bull cultists in a party, it might play out differently. Just like with any party make up. But it does not invalidate the scenario. Besides, she is a Lunar.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• How a cult of Cult of Krarsht (30 initiates, hidden temple building R-49) operates in Pavis, which has a Storm Bull Temple and 60 initiates living there

 

Underground and under Lunar Occupation.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• How Judge Dahak is able to go occasionally to New Pavis (with its Storm Bull Temple) to "drink and gamble" despite being an ogre, sorcerer and chaos cultist

 

Under Lunar occupation. And not RuneQuest.

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Nochet (hidden Ogre)

 

No idea of the reference?

7 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

• Applefest, Mircanda (hidden Ogre)
• Applefest 2, Hostilus and Nevi Fleethorse both trying to hide in plain sight while radiating chaos rune

 

No idea of the reference.

3 hours ago, Diadochoi said:

While Storm Bull may be a "small cult", there are supposedly 60 Storm Bull initiates within Pavis and thousands amongst the tribes of Prax. 7% of the Bison tribe, 10% of the Rhino tribe worship Storm Bull. yes they are a "small cult", but there will be initiates present nearly everywhere and as Ian points out this causes issues. Many may be "largely occupied", but that still leaves enough to thwart anyone with the slightest trace of chaos doing anything ever nearly anywhere without being sensed.

If any Storm Bull initiate can sense any chaos lots of possible plots cannot work, this skill is the ultimate "spoiler". This includes in official Glorantha products over the years.

 

Some of those "possible plots" are not going to work in Orlanthi or Praxian societies where Storm Bull is present, except during periods of Lunar rule or other unusual circumstances. And that's fine. I can't think of any published RuneQuest scenario where this would change things (as Sense Chaos has always been around). Gaumata's Vision takes place in a Yelmalion community and the scenario even gives pointer on how to handle outsider Storm Bull cultists.

Any Chaos is all Chaos as far as Storm Bull goes. And they are the only ones with the skill. So if someone tainted by Chaos goes near a Storm Bull initiate or rune lord, they are running the risk of being sensed. Period.

BUT Storm Bull is a pretty small cult. In Prax and the Genert Wastes, the cult is largely occupied with guarding the Block and hunting down and killing Chaos. There's a lot of Chaos in the Wastes after all. In Dragon Pass, the cult is a lot smaller. Many cult members are guarding the Block or raiding places like Snakepipe Hollow. In Esrolia, the cult forms much of the war retinues of the Esrolian queens. In all of those places, Storm Bull is well-loved but not allowed to be in charge outside of actually fighting Chaos.

So in those areas, folk tainted by Chaos will stay away from places where there are likely to be Storm Bulls.

Now in areas ruled by the Lunar Empire, the Storm Bull cult is usually pushed to the outliers. The cult hates the Red Emperor and the Red Goddess and the cult often holds that they are Chaotic even if they sense nothing. And given the Lunar Ways official tolerance of Chaos, that means that where the Lunars rule, the Lords of Terror may operate. They need to avoid upsetting the powerful - or at least being noticed - but it is certainly safer to be an ogre, a vampire, or a Krarsht cultist in Furthest than in Boldhome!

6 hours ago, kalidor said:

Old way coup d'etat?

Yep. The conflict between Queen Hendira and Samastina (her niece) was a FAMILY conflict. Like Starbrow's Rebellion, it came out of play - Samastina (like Leika) was a player character. Her player got herself into conflict with her aunt the old-fashioned way. As others have pointed out - the razing of part of the city for the Lunar Temple played a part of setting the scene. So did the Lunar military defeat at Auroch's Hill. So did the Great Winter which was a case of Lunar propaganda backfiring.

The whole situation was perfect for a bunch of player character Esrolians to organise a coup - which is exactly what they did. 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I finally had a revelation on this a week or so ago beyond just "Samastina went on a HeroQuest, was able to awaken/incarnate Ernalda and help end the Great Winter, and Hendira could not."

Clearly Hendira was trying to invoke & awaken Ernalda, and attempted particular rituals, but failed. As the governor of Esrolia in 1614 and 1616, she was automatically pulled into the Tournaments of Luck and Death, so it's not that she doesn't understand quests. But she followed traditional ritual paths.

(And by extension, Samastina clearly did not, and that made a difference.) 

One unknown is whether Samastina crossed paths with Argrath between the time of her exile (which I place in later 1620 when GS notes Fazzur was busy negotiating with Hendira) and the Cradle adventure (Cradle comes down river in Harmonyweek, Seaseason, 1621, and Argrath was already helping with the effort to aid its passage). My inclination is to say "no" - Argrath isn't the only source of information/inspiration on questing - but perhaps Samastina traveled to Pavis from Nochet and sought out the LM temple there. Prince of Sartar hints at Samastina wanting to visit Cragspider, and Samastina's Saga in HQG shows her meeting Cragspider. So, that's where I place Samastina getting her insights to help end the Great Winter.

As an aside, no I do not think this is what happened. In fact, I do not think heroquesting was at the center of this.

On 2/1/2024 at 12:25 PM, Nick Brooke said:

In general, I view these things as the Tinfang Warbles and Trotter the Hobbits of Glorantha: discarded first drafts. Greg Stafford was a publisher, he could easily have shared this stuff with the world if he thought it worth doing, and he never did. But YGWV, of course.

When we were working on this stuff, Greg told me that he viewed his earliest stuff as "mostly true" but filtered through the lens of another world and time. Like knights in medieval versions of the Old Testament (or for that matter medieval knights and bishops in Malkionism).

2 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Well this turned into an essay! tl;dr at the bottom...

This might get a little too real-world for the magical world of Glorantha, but I wouldn't underestimate militia in this way, especially in a culture like the Orlanthi. Historically, most pre-modern militia did not receive training, because they did not need to receive training. Their culture and lifestyle provides that training for them. Collective activities like cattle-raiding, group activities like sports and athletics, and general exposure to martial traditions like swordfighting are how cultures ended up with a body of war-capable fighters. This is true of pre-professional Roman legions, Macedonian phalanxes, Greek Hoplites, Gallic warriors etc. etc. These were all very effective bodies of troops.

For what it is worth, that's not quite true. Or more precisely, it relies on an overly narrow definition of training. In Greece, this was done as part of the Ephebos - those 18-20 year old men were given military training, patrolled, etc. They learned the skills of fighting in a phalanx, etc. This was likely also tied into assemblies (such as of the Macedonian tribes), religious festivals (such as the Pyrrhic dances), and so on.

The Sartarites do the same. Traditionally, new adults in Orlanthi cultures go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men.

Now during the Lunar Occupation of places like Boldhome, New Pavis, or the other Sartarite cities, this had to be more circumspect. Young men were often sent to relatives in the countryside to learn how to be Orlanthi - for example, many went to Garhound in Pavis County, where they were under the protection of the clan chieftain. In Boldhome, many had kin among the tribes.

Ironically, this may have created a stronger and more defined Orlanth cult identity among the Sartarite communities and one often more loyal or devoted to the Orlanth cult to their own city.

This is the basis of the militia - every Orlanth initiate has trained with his peers and learned to form a cohesive fighting group. And these are the same quality of troops as make up the Lunar Provincial Army or much of the Heartland Corps cavalry. Alternatively, another way of looking at it, is that a lot of those Lunar Army units are militia as well.

7 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Outlaw biker gang that is the only thing standing in the way of being overtaken by a people trafficking cartel?

Again not really. Storm Bull exists to fight Chaos. Usually to sacrifice himself to fight Chaos. Everything else about him comes out of that. Is he violent, deranged, impulsive, aggressive, and fill with rage? Likely. Are his worshipers little more than mindless brutes, barely human, and social unacceptable? Sure. But people in these communities forgive that because he fights Chaos. 

And not only does he fight Chaos, he actively seeks it out to fight. 

The Storm Bull cult exists for that reason alone. Not to be a source of warriors, not to be a band of bullies and troublemakers, etc, although it certainly can be all of those things. But it is first and foremost a Chaos fighting operation. It is probably better to think of them like a special military unit that does the absolutely essential jobs nobody else will - and as a result, they get away with behaviour that would normally be severely punished. Nobody else is going to do what they do, and what they do is essential for survival.

On 1/28/2024 at 1:28 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Today in play I likened Storm Bulls to an outlaw biker gang who just so happens to also fight monsters. If Storm Bulls didn't have a useful purpose in fighting Chaos, they would be completely socially unacceptable, hardly any better than Gagarth.

Orlanth, Humakt and Storm Bull all found something to differentiate them from mere brutes and bullies (like Vadrus and maybe even Umath). Gagarth went the other direction, embracing it.

But that useful function of Storm Bull is of incredible importance and often existential for the community. It is THE defining feature of Storm Bull - he's violent and filled with rage BECAUSE he exists to sacrifice himself in the fight against Chaos.

So although outlaw biker gang is often used as a short-hand for how Storm Bull cultists behave, it does not help to understand why the community supports and even loves Storm Bull. 

On 1/29/2024 at 12:53 AM, MagikarpHunter said:

I'm trying to make sense of a few numbers concerning tribe militia. The GM Screen Pack puts the Colymar militia at about 2500 people, with the tribe's population being 12,300. Meanwhile the Starter Set says Jonstown and its local tribes (Malani, Culbrea, Cinsina, Torkani) make a militia at 3000 (500 from Jonstown, 2500 from the tribes) with the population from that area being at around 30,000.

So what I'm wondering is why there is significantly less contribution towards the Jonstown militia when compared to the Colymar. They've got over double the population but aren't making that much larger of a force. The two things I'm thinking might be causing it is that either the Colymar (being more independent from the rest of Sartar) have to make up a bigger individual force to protect themselves, or that the Jonstown Confederation militia isn't reflective of what the tribes would muster if they were left on their own, but there isn't anything to suggest that is the case in the Starter Set.

Any thoughts?

This is really pretty easy. The Colymar are a pretty autonomous group. When they muster the militia for assembly in Fire Season, everyone qualified shows up, especially during the rebellious years of 1625-1626. But when it goes off to war outside its tribal borders, I suspect it is much smaller - probably around 1000 or so. This is the Colymar unit in WBRM.

The Jonstown militia is also both an assembly and a military unit, but it weighted towards the wealthier famers and crafters. In WBRM, they can muster two units under the direction of the city leaders - Foot Militia and Mounted Militia. And to add to that, the Malani tribe have their own separate tribal force that is kept autonomous - the so-called Two Ridge Farm.