Jeff

17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

To what extent do Storm Pentans WORSHIP the East Sting Wind (ie. Gagarth) as opposed to just offer propitiatory sacrifice?

In Pent, Gagarth was one of the gods the survivors of the Nights of Horror reached out to. He's a brutal, vicious, and frightful god, but he enabled survival, alongside Orlanth, Humakt, and Storm Bull. These were all enemy gods, but its shows how much the Nights of Horror shocked the Pentans to their core that many of them embraced such demon gods. 

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

 

Gagarth is essentially Orlanth unbound from Ernalda.

I'd go further than that. Gagarth is Orlanth unbound from Orlanth, Storm Bull unbound from Storm Bull. Orlanth demands Honor. Gagarth does not. Storm Bull demands his initiates fight Chaos. Gagarth demands nothing from his worshippers - being an outlaw from the rest of society is demand enough.

Gagarth is forced to aid Orlanth when demanded, but that is almost always reluctant and with a price.

Gagarth is associated with nobody. His cult is friendly with nobody (although it is neutral towards plenty of cults, including Humakt, Orlanth, Storm Bull, and Waha. 

As Vadrus never had a cult, I'm uncertain of his relationship to Gagarth. But it was probably no better than neutral. 

Gagarth is one of those things you sacrifice to when you really have nobody else who will accept you. He's not as bad as Chaos, but the best thing you can say about him is that it is sometimes possibly to get him to attack people other than you.

Ultimately, the appeal of the Seven Mothers is that they allow you to approach the Red Goddess. And that big Red Moon floating in the sky above you is an obvious reminder of Her importance and significance. By worshiping the Seven Mothers, you participate in her rebirth, and begin a path towards your own spiritual liberation. 

And it doesn't hurt that by initiating into the Seven Mothers (or other Lunar cults) you became a citizen of the Lunar Empire, and not merely a subject. You become part of the Lunar ummah which transcends tribe and city. 

In four centuries, a little over a third of the Lunar Heartlands are initiated into the Lunar Way, with the Seven Mothers being by leaps and bounds the most popular path. I suspect it is very overrepresented in the towns and cities, and underrepresented among the unskilled labourers and peasantry. 

Just now, Joerg said:

What did the Teelo Norri poor fund distribute before Hon-eel brought back maize? Something like the Jerusalem artichoke?

Probably some tuber or something that can double for pig food. Probably something like duck-potato.

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

The reminds me of the Mongoose approach of ignoring what has gone before. Sure, retcon things that you don't like, but please don't ignore that potatoes were mentioned in Glorantha previously.

Whatever Simon. There were some throwaway references in RQ2 to potatoes and such in Cults of Prax and Pavis (the potato bread fund of the Teelo Norri poorhouse, a prisoner offering some potato bread, and Light Sons being forbidden from eating potatoes). At the same, there's no mention of potatoes in the lists of foods, farming materials, etc. This stuff happened all the time with the older material - or does anyone really think that billiards is a common game in rural Sartar?

When I was working on the Guide, food and crops came up a lot. We wanted to put the Seven Mothers back at the center of the Lunar religion (remember they pretty much got eliminated in the ILH materials), and the Poor Fund came up. Greg said the poor fund would give maize bread (because maize is the Lunar crop after all), and just drop potatoes as a reference. Maybe there was some sort of local "Earth apple" or tuber (like a Jerusalem Artichoke) grown in Rinliddi but they likely are little better than pig fodder, and once Hon-eel brought back maize, that is what would get stored and used (why bother having a Maize Goddess if you aren't going to use maize?). 

But we decided that potatoes - at least what we moderns would recognise as potatoes - aren't present. 

22 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Having played in a couple of CJ's excellent romps around the Great Houses of Esrola, they see men as  having their uses but as being ultimately a waste of time and resources.

That's likely a pretty fringe characterisation. Like I posted earlier, the Esrolians have the same basic view of the differences between the genders that other Orlanthi have. Their big difference is that they put the Earth Goddess and her priestesses at the center of the social order instead of Orlanth (and his warriors). So one way of thinking about this is that most Orlanthi communities put a martial leader (and a martial deity) in charge. The Esrolians put a fertility-bringer in charge. That ends having big social implications - the top leaders in Esrolia are almost always women; the top leaders in most other Orlanthi societies are usually (but not always) men. 

But just as few Sartarite men view women as "having their uses but ultimately a waste of time and resources", I suspect very few Esrolians view men that way. Men are their husbands, their brothers, their sons, and their fathers. Men are most useful for war, but they are also useful for farming, for making things, for sex, for aesthetics, for reading and writing, for trade, etc. Men lead most martial activities - it is just that those activities are always held in check by the Earth Priestesses.

I'm shutting this thread down. Greg hated the term "Gregged" and I feel the same thing about "Jeffed." Complain about specific things I've done, but lets not have a broad abstract thread.  

4 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I prefer white wines most of the time. Therefore my bias.  

Anyway. an eventual Lunar Heartlsnds book should include base prices fir various goods that are often different from prices in Sartar.  I'm just getting my request in early. 🙂

 

In all seriousness, I don't think the Lunar Heartlands raise grapes. Wine is certainly drunk, but is shipped up from the other side of Dragon Pass. 

Here's some old notes of mine:

Lunar Alcohol
For most Pelorians, the drinks of choice are:
Corn beer. Like chicha, this is made in huge earthenware vats and because of its low alcohol content (1-3%) is consumed in vast quantities. Corn beer is often drunk in Lunar celebrations and ceremonies because of its connection with Hon-eel.
Rice wine. Many varieties of rice wine are known in the Lunar Heartlands, with an average alcohol content of 18-25%. Particularly popular in religious festivals for Lodril, the local rice goddess, and Oslira. 
Barley beer and wine. In the Lunar Provinces, Sylila, Karasal, Oronin, and the West Reaches, barley is more important than rice and barley beer and wine are popular. Barleywine is a strong ale, 6-12%. It is considered semi-barbaric by many Heartlanders.
Wheat beer. In the Lunar Provinces, beer made from emmer wheat is popular. It is considered barbaric by many Heartlanders.
Kumis. Nearer to the Redlands, fermented mare's milk is popular. 
It is also drunk by many aristocratic clans.

In the Lunar Heartlands, it is the Lodrilli peasantry and workers that drink heavily. And often. The Yelmites put too much importance on self-control and purity, and drunkenness is seen as a "lower class" thing. Popular beverages include maize beer, barley beer, and fermented rice drinks.

Of course the upper classes drink too, but public drunkenness is considered shameful or embarrassing. And Moonson's notorious indulgences are transgressive and expensive - there is more likely to be hazia and vats of wine at his court than pots of cheap maize beer!

Which also ties into the Lunar ruling class view that the barbarians are basically Lodrilli peasants.
 

Pelorian Food

Rice, barley, and maize are the staple grains, supplemented by millet and various root crops. Fish is the most common domestic meat, followed by pork. Cattle are used mainly to pull plows, while goats are a primary source of milk and meat. Food is flavored with a variety of strong herbs and spices.

On 1/16/2024 at 12:35 AM, kalidor said:

Thanks Jeff. Any chance of seeing Cult compatibility charts for the lightbringers book? As a download at least.

Just waiting for our web specialist to get the time to put them up on the website. Dan and I finished them long ago.

Several of you obsess too much about Bronze or Iron Age. Glorantha is Glorantha - its history and cultures are not our own. That being said, its primary metal IS bronze. And most bronze in Glorantha is made out of smelting tin and copper. Gloranthan bronze approximates our own - it is not iron as bronze.

Iron is rare. Few humans even know how to work it. Once worked it needs to be enchanted or it causes problems with magic, interaction with spirits, etc. 

But unlike our history, Glorantha has dwarfs, elves, dragonewts, immortal humans, and other beings all actively interacted with humanity. It is possible to go to the God of Something and learn from it. There is a God of Literacy, from which all writing is derived, there is God of Communication whose cult language is a second language for millions. And so on.

So why did we decide to base the look of the Wolf Pirates on the Sea Peoples? In part because of some of Steve Swenstown's classic art. The Wolf Pirates have been around the Homeward Ocean for years, and have raided Teshnos, Teleos, Maslo, Laskal, and so on. Greg and I dug the look of the Sea Peoples, as well as various reconstructions of Aegean weapons and armor, and figured it is a good fit. Much much better than having them looking like the Norse. 

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Personally, I don't imagine it as being Caribbean. More Southern US food (but without the rice or maize). So pork, chicken, beans, okra, turnips, etc. And lots of bbq, which makes sense with a volcano god!

Also remember that Caladraland overlaps with Esrolia. So there's going to be a lot of shared elements there.

1 minute ago, Cassius said:

Then something like cuisine for West Indies would be just right.
 

Personally, I don't imagine it as being Caribbean. More Southern US food (but without the rice or maize). So pork, chicken, beans, okra, turnips, etc. And lots of bbq, which makes sense with a volcano god!

34 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On the other hand wine is likely a high status drink in Peloria, and grape vines will very likely grow there despite the colder climate: After all in the RW they griw in Germany and German wine is very good.  Also, wine can be imported to the heartlands from convenient  places in the empire like Imther, using a short land haul to reach the long river routes. 

In other words if you are a Lunar noble you can afford it. 

Indeed  Clearwine is harder to get in Glamour after the Dragonrise, but the trade is still done.  The empire dies not have the structure to stop this trade which fills Argrath's treasury and so pays his army.

 

German white wine is very good. Their red wine not so much.

But the climate of the Peloria plains is far more like Wisconsin than it is like Baden. And although I know folk in Wisconsin that tout the 800 acres of grapes grown in the state, it is not exactly all that good. Kind of like Colorado wines.

Caladraland is subtropical, like Esrolia (which likely has had a MASSIVE influence in Caladraland), but more humid. The volcanic soil, plenty of rain, and climate means that the volcanic hills are covered with vegetation that forms a tangled thicket - lots of undergrowth. Things grow so easy there - thanks to Lodril and Ernalda. You don't really need to plow in Highvale - just poke a hole in the dirt and plant your seeds. But you will do a lot of weeding!

Ramona is also a not uncommon female name in parts of the US. Nonetheless it is fine as the name for city. After all its etymology is (fem.) "wise protector".

Reading through this, it seems to me that the OP seems disappointed that Pelorian culture (lets call that the agrarian-urban mix of Yelm-Dendara, Lodril, Oria, Gorgorma, Dayzatar, and a few other celestial cults) hasn't managed to displace the Orlathi of South Peloria (say everything south of Jillaro) and the West Pelorian Hills.

And the answer is, they didn't manage to do that. Now there is a network of non-Pelorian solar temples - the Yelmalio cult - throughout that area, but they are Theyalan, not Pelorian. Those tenacious Orlanthi managed to get there first in the Dawn Ages and never could get completely dislodged. The best the Pelorians have managed to do is have some Second Age settlements in Saird, which remained like Sub-Roman dynasties. At least until Sheng Seleris messed everything up.

On the other hand, the Orlanthi never managed to displace the Pelorian culture and even lost a fair amount of their ground. Despite defeating the Dara Happans in the Gbaji Wars, they successfully rebelled and the Orlanthi got stuck paying the Troll Tax. Despite the EWF conquering Dara Happa, the Dara Happans again successfully rebelled and even planted the aforementioned colonies in Saird. The Dara Happans even made an alliance with their Carmanian rivals and led the Invincible Golden Horde into Dragon Pass - which was destroyed by the dragons, not the Orlanthi (who were already broken by the dragonewts and the trolls).

Now the Pelorians are ruled by a Lunar dynasty and have done better than any Pelorian empire in over a thousand years. But they still haven't managed to displace those pesky Orlanthi!

And that's about it. But everyone has their favourites and it is clear that the OP favours the Pelorians. Which is swell, but there really aren't any long-term winners. Empires rise and fall and sometimes even rise again. Confederations are formed, get defeated, and then form again. Rinse and repeat.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

To me, this indicates a need for an "official" book on the Wolf Pirates & associated topics.  Or a couple of adventures plus background write-up. I realize that other people may not feel the same desire..  But with attention shifting toward  Esrolia and Heortland, more of us will be wanting that.

Start with the Guide and then go to the Ygg writeup. That gets you most of the way there. 

Beyond that you are dealing with pretty picayune details (Yggs' Islanders have goats or not, whether the Ygg Islands are like Norway or the Aleutians, etc). 

32 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Thanks for resurrecting this fascinating topic.  Since the cult of Ygg has now been published in the Lightbringers book, I wish there was a sourcebook and/ or an adventure or two to flesh out the Wolf Pirates. 

I note Jeff's writing a year or two ago about the cults mix among the Pirates, so they include a lot of Orlsnthi and other people from everywhere Harrek's circumnavigation touched.  I put some of that into Caravanserai.  But I am glad I did not need to touch on cultural aspects, because I was ignorant of everything Joerg wrote in this thread in 2019.  

Of which many parts are just plain incorrect. 

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Which trak3s us back to:  So what accounts for the Esrolian women having "cultural weapon skills"?  Not as cult skills, because  that is a different step in character creation.

The same reason that Sartarite women have "cultural weapon skills".

You guys do whatever you want. But the author of the cookbook has confirmed that there are no potatoes in any of the recipes. And there are no references to potatoes in any of the Chaosium books in the last decade. So make of it what you will.

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As I understand it, it is that leadership by men is undesirable because men are more violent, less thoughtful vs. impulsive, and less long term thinkers.

As I read 'Esrolia the Land of Ten Thousand goddesses" I perceive that from   page 10, "What is the difference between women and men"  which begins "Women are superior to men in every way.  They are shirt tempered and prone to violence, selfish and unable to keep promises, "... and ends ""What men are not is leaders..."

and also the second paragraph of 'What makes us great* on page 9, and the second paragraph of " How do we live" on the same page, 

First, Land of Ten Thousand goddesses is not canon and to the extent it is, it is largely set in the First Age so not really helpful. 

Second, all Orlanthi view men as emotional and reckless, and women as more practical and rational. That's also the Esrolian view. The Esrolian myth is that after the martial leaders on the Vingkotlings tore their world apart in war and kin strife, the Grandmothers took power for their own survival. The warriors and chiefs were pretty much wiped out and the Grandmothers were left to lead the survivors.

At the Dawn, Esrolia was the center of the Ernalda cult, and her priestesses retained authority. You can reassemble Orlanthi society with Ernalda at the center pretty easily, especially when you have the Only Old One provide protection. And so the Earth priestesses became the center of the networks of temples and kinship groups instead of the Wind Lords. The Wind Lords were present, but not the central node. While among the Heortlings, the Wind Lords were the center; the Earth priestesses were present but not at the center.

And so we end up with a matriarchy. The Earth Priestesses are the dominant leaders, the various cults that normally would be the ruling god compete against each other for access to the Earth Priestesses. And the whole thing is pretty stable. When the Only Old One was finally defeated, the Earth Priestesses transferred their loyalty to Belintar, who served functionally as the Husband-Protector of Esrolia. Only now, with the demise of Belintar, is the system failing and the Earth priestesses need to find a new protector.

7 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Somewhst. yes.  I suppose it boils down to

"What is the extent to which the Esrolian characterationn of men in comparison to women has been internalized by the men and women who are not in the noble and priestly tiers of society?".

What is the Esrolian characterisation of men? 

An important feature for Greg and I was that Esrolia is an Orlanthi society. To be honest, non-Orlanthi have a lot of difficulty telling the difference between Sartarites and Esrolians.

So the Orlanthi traditionally have two main temples in their community. One is to Orlanth, the other to Ernalda. Orlanth is in charge of war, distribution of property, adjudication of disputes, and dealing with outsiders. Ernalda is in charge of the harvest, grain storage, and of family life. Orlanth has a big network of other gods to help him. In most Orlanthi societies, Orlanth is the dominant partner.

In Esrolia, these are still the two main temples. But Ernalda is the dominant partner. She remains in charge of distribution of property and of adjudication of disputes. The reasons for this are many, but that's not relevant here. Orlanth still has his network of gods to help him, but Ernalda has other husbands as well. Lodril, Argan Argar, Flamal, Yelm, and Magasta all have their place in aiding Ernalda (and not necessarily Orlanth).

So how does this play out in the Esrolian militia? Well the Orlanth cult is still the backbone of the militia, but there are also Argan Argar and Lodrili militias. And Babeester Gor plays a much bigger role. Normally whoever is Ernalda's local husband-protector leads all of this, so usually an Orlanth cultist. But sometimes that is a Lodril or Calandra & Aurelian cultist. Or sometimes an Argan Argar cultist, even a troll. More rarely it is Babeester Gor (who normally is a body guard or shock trooper). Sometimes the Orlanth protector is VInga, but more often not.

So if you look at this from the outside, it looks quite similar to what you might see in Heortland and Sartar, but becomes noticeably different only when you look more carefully at the arrangements and realise that instead of Orlanth at the center of it all, it is Ernalda.

Does that help?