Jeff

7 minutes ago, Ageha said:

This is exactly what I mean. Yes. Other than Athens, briefly, the many polises of Greece extended little imperial hegemonic power beyond their region, as compared to the Achaemenids, until the Macedonian Empire of the Argeads carried the process of Hellenization across much of the Mediterranean and Near East.

Earlier I discussed with someone else also how, comparable to Mesopotamia, Dara Happa has served as an important location, but one fought over by empires, typically Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan in nature. Never itself a serious hegemonic force (until the Lunar Empire, which we know will end poorly for them and with first Pentan, then Orlanthi hegemony restored). 

I would also have previously loved to see Dara Happan specifically, but Pelorian more generally, culture be a more vibrant and influential force, but I have come to accept that simply will not be. For whatever reasons Pelorian culture could not even in 400 years spread to become the dominant culture of the Lunar Provinces, so Pelorian culture just does not seem to spread well.

But, sincerely, I'm glad you understand what I mean. I really, truly, appreciate it.

I'll be honest, again, this just makes the Pelorians sound dumb to me again.

Okay! This is what I mean, I am glad for the confirmation. Thank you. Would it not be more accurate, though, to say 'northern' Peloria? Since Vanch, Talastar, Hoolay, Aggar, Imther and the Lunar Provinces as a whole are stated to be dominated by Orlanthi peoples in the Guide to Glorantha vol 1 and per Mythology: Cults in almost all of them worship of Orlanth still exceeds even Seven Mothers combined. 

I understand completely, the fault was mine for not immediately clamping down on digressions and actually also taking part in discussions about them.

I am keenly aware now that this is a touchy subject, this is why I felt responsible to at least say something on it. I apologize for that.

I don't feel personally attacked at all save for the one accusation of being a troll. Other than that, I think everyone has just brought up their points and whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant because everyone should be free to do so. I am a little sad just because this topic makes me sad, but that is just me, it has nothing to do with anyone else.

I think Glorantha is truly a lovely setting. There are few, if any, settings I've ever seen with such sheer originally and innovation. Being Bronze Age is also refreshing. Again, just to be clear, regardless of how I might dislike this one part, I think Glorantha, Runequest, is objectively amazing when it comes to world building.

Your Glorantha Will Vary is a really cool adage and a good one for people who play any sort of TTRPG in general, I think.

I do think, for me, it is just not enough but, perhaps I will change my mind. I am in a bad headspace at the moment so perhaps when I feel better I will find that I am able to still engage by simply focusing on the things I do like and trying to ignore the parts which make me sad. 

I just do not know, but I appreciate the kind words, thank you.Ag

So wait, Dara Happa is kind of dumb despite dominating most of Peloria for most of the last 16 centuries because it does that with an imperial system instead of council? Dara Happa believes that a monarchy, with the monarchy being descended from the Sun God, is the rightful form of government. Large Orlanthi polities are almost always confederations of groups held together by a ruling council from the groups. The Orlanthi regularly create confederations with their equals, the Dara Happan rulers traditional recognise no outside equals.

Which is pretty normal for imperial systems.

Or that the Southern Peloria hills are still largely Orlanthi? Maybe because unlike in the Pelorian heartlands where the Sun God is associated with the Red Goddess, in the hill country the traditional ruling deity is an enemy of the Red Goddess. That likely is going to slow down spread of the Lunar Way - just as Dara Happa did not develop a substantive local Orlanth community during the few times it was ruled by Orlanthi. 

But is Dara Happa culture influential even among those who do not revere Yelm as the ruling god or reject the Lunar Way? Absolutely. It is perfectly normal to see tribal kings emulate the emperor or even try to assert greater powers. Theyalan scribes read Dara Happan manuals on celestiology. Pelorian philosophy has proven influential and the Moon Rune is largely accepted as one of the Elemental Runes. This is no doubt more prevalent in the Pelorian hills than in Sartar or beyond, but that's a byproduct of the Inhuman Occupation and the resettlement of Dragon Pass.

2 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I think I get what you're saying now.

Perhaps a better mirror for them would be the Greeks. Now I expect I'm going to offend a great many Greeks by saying this, but the ancient Greeks did incredibly poorly as an imperial power in their own right. They may have provided democratic foundations for the modern world, and had an enormous cultural impact, but Greek polities largely barely got out of their own shadow.

The Spartans, despite having an overwhelming advantage in real estate, never built a hegemony that reached further than their own back garden. The Athenians did a little better by bringing together the Delian League, though that was only better by a shade. Again it was barely out of their metaphorical back garden, and lasted for a grand total of 74 years. Not particularly impressive.

Their greatest imperial achievement (Alexander's conquests) was accomplished by an ethnic Macedonian (in those days seen as more Greek-adjacent), and lasted a colossal 15 years as an imperial polity. His successors did a little better, though still pale into insignificance compared to the 1546 year stretch of the Roman Empire (if you count the Byzantine empire as an unbroken continuation, which there's no reason not to other than orientalism).

Where the Greeks did excel, however, was in their leading participation within other imperial polities. There were countless leading Greeks driving forward both the West and East Roman Empires, as well as providing mercenaries and philosophers to countless other empires across the Mediterranean.

So, while Dara Happa might have few emperors themselves, it's likely they would have been borne on a unending continuum of Dara Happan shoulders. Legitimised by Dara Happan schools of thought.

However, I do get your point. I would be pleased to see a little more Dara Happan weight in the cultural world of Glorantha. If only because I think they're fascinating.

Ho ho. If I follow this approach, I'd say that Dara Happa has been the dominant hegemonic power in Peloria for about 11 out of the last 14 centuries. 

And they did that without needing to be partnered with others. The Lightbringers spread so far across Genertela because they partnered with others. During their period of rapid transmission, they were partnered with the trolls and elves who helped them spread the Lightbringers message. Their great empire worked because they were partnered with dragonewts and dragons. It collapsed because they managed to fail their partners. 

Remember that - the Orlanthi have achieved greatness partnered with other cultures and species. The Dara Happans ARE the core of the Lunar Empire, so at most you can say that the Lunar dynasty has added a bunch of new cults and new magic to the old Dara Happan core.

Dara Happa has never had any lasting hegemony beyond Peloria. But that is a very different question.
 

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'm aware of the story.  I'm stating that atonement is different from an apology.

Does atonement imply apology?  Maybe?  Orlanth "entered boldly", which doesn't sound apologetic.  But making a "bid for friendship" does.

 

I used the word "atonement" because I view it as more serious and substantive than a mere apology. So I don't think this makes the point you are trying to make.

5 minutes ago, g33k said:

???
Can you say a bit more about this, please?
I had thought that basic framework (Imperial/Barbarian conflict) was in place as of WBRM (and thus pre-RQ) ... ?  Certainly Harrek's bit is steeped in "Barbarian" tropes.

Obviously, Greg was creating the world for some years prior to that... but I wouldn't necessarily think of WBRM as "late addition" content.

WBRM came several years after Greg had written the "core" myths and history of the setting. Of course back then Argrath fought against Gbaji in the Chaos Wars, Humakt was the Storm King, and Ehilm was the Sun God. But it was all there. WBRM would take place in the undefined Srvulai - or Krjalki Land depending on the source. There was Ernaldi land to the south of this, but what we be BOTH the Lunar Empire and Sartar was a largely unknown land of "barbarians" (which in Greg's stories meant merely that they were considered inferior by the Seshnegi and Brithini.

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Please, I'd like more information on this.  I have, yet again, reread the Orlanth writeup in Cults of Runequest, The Lightbringers.

1. There is a brief mention "sometimes defeated temporarily", or "He was scorched ... yet survived". but zero details. 
   1. Who defeated Him?
   2. What were the downsides?  Lunars, Yelmalio, Uz, they have mythical downsides.  Orlanth?
2. I don't see where he ever admits he did something wrong.  To whom did Orlanth apologize, and what did he say?  There should be some "Bad Poetry" used for a formal Orlanth apology ritual.

Orlanth is Storm. Storm is often overcome - the clouds part, the winds die down, and we get calm again - until it returns at a time and place of its choosing.

Orlanth - and all the Storm Gods, trolls, and others - was defeated at the Battle of Stormfall. There were other times as well - when he was forced to flee from the far north when his father was destroyed. When he decided to embark on the Lightbringers Quest. When he was self-defeated in the Underworld by Eurmal's betrayal of Argan Argar's hospitality. But as one of the most powerful gods of the Gods War (tied by a few, but surpassed by none until the Greater Darkness), Orlanth tended to win the battles he fought.

Orlanthi mythology rightfully hold that their god was dominant in the Lesser Darkness. He was the leader of the most powerful faction of gods (although Darkness and Water came close). But the Air Gods were defeated by Chaos at Stormfall. Orlanth (and every other god) was simply outmatched by Wakboth. The only way the world would be restored would be to make peace with those Orlanth had warred with and collectively defeat the Devil.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

It's very reminiscent of the Shoguns rendering the Emperor more-passive, or what the Magna Carta did (or at least began) with the English throne.  The Theyalan "missionaries" are also reminiscent of Christianity's proselytizing ways & worldwide spread.  I don't know if Greg explicitly took any of this as inspiration into Glorantha, or not  But let us also admit that Greg's original genesis of Glorantha (which is written onto the very bones of the setting) is a very American-POV narrative of bold vibrant "Barbarians" facing-down invading wrongbad "Imperials..." and with DH in the "Imperial" camp, there's definitely some lingering corners of "they're wrongbad."

This whole thread IMO says more about some of the posters than about the Gloranthan setting.

Solar worship and the Lightbringers are pretty comparable in terms of influence. 

Sun-worship is pretty common in Genertela. It is the ruling god in most of Peloria (let's say 7 million people), Pent (another .8 million), and Teshnos (2.25 million). It is influential enough in Kralorela for scholars to say that Kralorela is a solar culture. Let's give that a 50% discount and it is still another 5 million. So some 15 million humans.

Lightbringers worship is widely disseminated, first by the Theyalans, then with some cults by the Middle Sea Empire. But let's just count the areas where Orlanth is top god. That gives us Kethaela, Dragon Pass, Maniria, the Pelorian hill country, and much of Ralios and Fronela, plus a minority of Praxians and Pentans. That gets us around 11 million people. Fewer than the Solars but still one of the world's main cluster of cults.

Glorantha as Greg's literary creation predates the barbarians and the imperials. They were a late addition to his stories. 

As a final aside, remember that Arkat did not establish an empire in Maniria, Holy Country, Dragon Pass, or Peloria. He left his friends and allies in charge and then left. His only "empire" was the so-called Dark Empire in Ralios, where the great hero retired to and he taught his secrets to those followers who stayed with him. 

Who is a winner and who is a loser really depends on what point in time you want to pick.

250 ST. Orlanthi: part of the Second Council, allied with trolls, elves, dragonewts, and dwarves. They are spreading the Lightbringers promise across Genertela. Dara Happa: the Gods Age Solar Empire is restored and the Tripolis rule Peloria.
Verdict: a draw.

400 ST. Orlanthi: no longer part of the Broken Council, defeated and enslaved. Dara Happa: the leaders of the Golden Empire (aka the Broken Council) which extends over most of Genertela.
Verdict: Clear Dara Happa

550 ST. Orlanthi: recently overthrew their troll overlords and ruling Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling most of Peloria with a reformed empire. 
Verdict: marginal Dara Happa

700 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and south Peloria, talking with dragons. Dara Happa: paying tribute to Spolites and suffering from a "secret rot".
Verdict: Orlanthi

850 ST. Orlanthi formed the Empire of the Wyrms Friends and biggest power in Genertela. Dara Happa: paying tribute to EWF.
Verdict: Clear Orlanthi

1000 ST. Orlanthi: EWF is corrupt, degenerate and collapsing. Dara Happa: warring with Carmanian empire
Verdict: marginal Dara Happa

1150 ST. Orlanthi: Core Orlanthi lands wiped out by Dragonkill War. Dara Happa: rulers of most of Peloria, but subject to counteroffensive by Bull Lords of Carmania.
Verdict: Clear Dara Happa

1300 ST. Orlanthi: beginning to resettle Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling all of Peloria under the new Lunar Dynasty.
Verdict: Clear Dara Happa

1450 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: largely ruled by Sheng Seleris, depopulated and defeated.
Verdict: Clear Orlanthi

1600 ST. Orlanthi: ruling half of Dragon Pass (but under increasingly Lunar pressure) and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: ruling Peloria and half of Dragon Pass.
Verdict: Clear Dara Happa

Score
Dara Happa 6
Orlanthi 3
Draw 1

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Get the feeling that Irrippi Ontor is really  a subcult of Buserian rather than providing all rune magics in his own right.  Think the same might apply to the other Seven Mothers and Lunar Gods.  For example: Yanafal/Humakt, Deezola/(Dendara/Ernalda), Etyries/Issaries, Jakaleel/Horned Man.

I think there is an overstatement as to what fully integrated means. It means that Irrippi Ontor is housed in the old scribal archives - aka the Knowledge Temples. In new cities we built new Knowledge Temples and dedicated them to Irrippi Ontor, but the old scribes are perfectly entitled to use them as well. When we rebuilt our cities in the Fifth Wane, we did that as well. And there are often advantages to using an Knowing God scribe - their neutrality can be a tremendous advantage at times.

Now likely this means that the Dara Happan written language is largely ceremonial, with New Pelorian being the language of culture. Meanwhile plenty of scribes learn Theyalan, and texts are translated from Theyalan into New Pelorian (and vice versa). 

In the end, it might be easier to ignore the names and go with titles. We have The Knowing God, who invented writing and is the god of scribes. He has many names - Lhankor Mhy, Buserian, etc., but whenever we pray for the source of Knowledge, we pray to him. He showed us how to catalogue and organise information. But most importantly he showed us how to record things so that knowledge would not be lost.

In the Third Age, a priest of the Knowing God joined the conspiracy of the Seven Mothers. He gained secret knowledge and madness in the process. Although he was a mortal man, he became a god through the Red Goddess. We Lunars worship him because he knows the secrets of the Knowing God AND his own secrets gained from the Red Goddess. Traditionalists and barbarians continue to worship the Knowing God, but we can get further with the Brown Sage than they can with the Knowing God alone.

Another thing to think about. We tend to assume that Dara Happa is THE solar civilization. But of course it is not. The Pentans have nearly as good a claim to this as Dara Happa. The Horse Lords ruled Dara Happa at the Dawn. They stopped the expansion of the Unity Council and fought the Second Council to a standstill (until the cities of Dara Happa rebelled). And in the Third Age, they ruled most of Peloria, Prax, Kralorela, and Teshnos, making them the rulers of a quarter of mortal humans in Glorantha.

Wow. I guess this is shows how passionate folk can get about fictional places!

A few thoughts. Dara Happa properly speaking consists of an ancient confederation of three cities along the lower Oslir River - Yuthuppa, Raibanth, and Alkoth - plus their colonies and dependencies. They've been an important confederation for over a thousand years, although sometimes have been ruled by outsiders.

Dara Happa has been a very successful confederation - which is usually the source of its trouble. It is powerful and rich enough to have pretensions of universal rule - which twice it has come close to making a reality (the Golden Empire and the Lunar Empire). The Orlanthi have pulled that off once (the EWF - the High Council was NOT an empire but an alliance of groups where humanity was in the minority, and Arkat gave rule to the trolls, not the Orlanthi). Unlike the Orlanthi, Dara Happa has an unbroken history - it didn't lose the core of civilization to the Dragonkill War.

Yelm is one of the three most broadly powerful cults in terms of its range of Rune Spells (the others not surprising are Ernalda and Orlanth). He gets access to Shield, Sunspear, Truespear (through a subcult), Fire Elementals of all sizes, and a LOT more. His cult is able to claim with a straight face that he summoned his murderer before him and forced him to make amends in order to revive the world.  

And this illustrates the problem relying heavily on Greg's deep background material that is largely set over a thousand years before the present. It is like trying to make sense of Alexander's Macedon while relying primarily on Linear B sources.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

This stretch of Prax is much like the lands below the Rockies in Wyoming or Colorado. It is not wasteland, and herds can live along here - in fact, it's some of the best grasslands of Prax. 

Why did homesteaders leave the eastern US to settle in Colorado, Wyoming, or Montana? They weren't the poor and impoverished, and they had other options. 

This is a place where you could say the winds of Orlanth blow free without constraint by old, tradition-bound cults.

Yeah I pretty much live in the Pol-Joni March (my great-grandfather was a cattleman, so this area was great for ranching). 

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

i

I'm have doubts of the accuracy and scope of any sentence that starts with 'the malkioni', let alone continues with 'worship'...

The Aeolians are the world experts on the storm deity links of Malkion the Prophet, so any details on that known to scribes in Nochet likely reflect their perspective.

As i understand it, the Aeolians have a tri-caste society, with:

- Zzaburi performing sorcery, and also acting as rune priests of lightbringer deities

- a combined farmer/warrior caste who are mostly initiates of lightbringer deities.

- a noble caste who are Rune Lord/shamans with ancestry tracing to Malkion and Aerlit.

Significantly, they hold this system to be the way things should be, not a pragmatic compromise due to the lack of available lifespan to fully train proper wizards. They regard both other Lightbringers, and also other Malkioni as  each having lost one half of the picture

 

Yep. The Aeolians are their own ethnoreligious group, not a compromise half-way house.

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

unlike the Druze, however, they do accept converts!

As a general rule, they don't. I am sure it is possible - but then again, it is possible for a human to become a dark troll or an elf.

5 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

 

The first mention of "Saint Orlanth" pretty much gives away the farm, to anyone who knows anything about Western and Lightbringer religion.

I'm pretty sure it'd be simple for someone from somewhere civilised that has been fighting with and against sorcery for a while to foment kinstrife among the Sartarites to form a "Aeolian" cult, that promises to teach sorcery to any Lightbringer worshippers ... I mean, 'Saint' is just how the Westerners pronounce 'God', right ?

Couple of pamphlets, make a 'St Barntar's Prayer of Sharpen Plow' spell and you could upset the social order right and proper, and then the storm barbarians will be fighting each other rather than us.

Worked with Monrogh, didn't it ?!

But yeah, the ones in Heortland are quite happy to be who they are in their hills between Prax and the Holy Country.

Ummm. Haven't seen the use of the term "Saint Orlanth" in any of the canonical materials. 

This is a setting where a human can choose to become a troll or an elf, so of course it is possible for an outsider to become accepted as an Aeolian. But I doubt it is easy - like with the Druze I doubt the Aeolians speak about the mysteries of their religion to outsiders. This makes it awful difficult for outsiders to learn enough about the religion to become an initiate.

Buserian is Lhankor Mhy, and vice versa. At the Dawn, the Dara Happans and the Theyalans had different written scripts and assumed each script had a different god. By the Second Age, it was acknowledged that there is a single God of Literacy (or Knowledge) known to both cultures. He is better known as Lhankor Mhy, and so that is the name we use in the books.  

7 hours ago, Ian_W said:

Is there anything in canon about the followers of the prophet Aeol, and his views about the Lightbringers and so on being emenations of the Invisible God, trying to spread their faith ?

Aeolianism is not a proselytising religion. 

As the writer of much of this, here's my order:
1. Glorantha Sourcebook. This gives you the big overview.
2. Cults of RQ. Start with Mythology and then go to whatever cults you are interested in. 
3. Guide - optional
4. Prince of Sartar comic - super optional as this was fun, but also an experiment and not exactly canon.

Trollpak is interesting IF your goal is to learn as much as possible about the trolls. But there are better sources for that information if you want a broader view. I'd put that pretty low on the list.

Potatoes (at least post Columbian Exchange) are a transformative staple - even more so than maize. They can grow where other grains cannot, and yield about three times the calories per acre than grain does. They allow areas like northern Fronela or the uplands of Ralios to be very productive - which they aren't.

And we already have one transformative grain - maize. It also grows where other grains cannot, and yields about two and a half the calories per acre than wheat or barley does. And to grow maize we have Hon-eel and blood sacrifices. We have nothing similar with the potato, and when Greg and I talked about this in the Guide, we solved it by dropping potatoes entirely.

Part of this might also be that before the Columbian Exchange, potatoes were largely confined to the Andean region, while maize was throughout North and South America - especially in Mesoamerica and North America (which was so influential on Greg's vision of Glorantha). So maize yes, but potatoes no. 

20 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen and Steve Perrin all demonstrably thought that Glorantha - and more specifically the Lunar Empire - had potatoes. They've been a feature of Glorantha since the earliest publications (see threads above: White Bear & Red Moon and Cults of Prax both featured Lunar potatoes). 

Jeff Richard thinks the Lunar Empire doesn't have potatoes, because nor did the Roman Empire, and we know that the two are identical in every way. (Or something like that.) So he's tried to retcon potatoes, with hilarious results.

Whatever Nick. If you want potatoes in your Glorantha, go for it. But I am pretty sure there's been none since we had to really think about this stuff in the Guide to Glorantha. And the cookbook has no potatoes in its recipes.

23 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I agree that it is not practical.  But isn't the tithe, as described, exactly that, an income tax?

I am even more confused than before.

Because you are overthinking it. Harvest is easy to track - you give up a tenth of your harvest to Orlanth and Ernalda (aka the temple). For every ten piglets, calves, or lambs born you give one to the temple. For every ten eggs you give one to the temple. When it is time to slaughter livestock, you give part of the meat to the temple. And this is just how it is always done. If you cheat, you risk angering the gods and spirits - and they DO seek retribution.

And for the rich, the renders you receive from your tenants get the same treatment. But of course you likely give more than 10% to the temple - sacrifices for the blessings of the god, spirit magic, Rune spells, whatever.

7 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

Use ancestor cults as an example of 'how do I add rune spells to Daka Fal that makes sense.' For example, if you want to represent an ancestor cult of a great hero of the culture, take the Daka Fal cult as a baseline, and then add in rune spells and change associations around to match what you're looking for. You want an ancestor cult to say, Heort? He's associated with stags, with Orlanth, with the Second Son, and I Fought We Won. He took his staff of Law from Gagarth. Heort's rune associations are Man, Mastery, and Air in the prosepedia. 

This means you would run him as an ancestor cult of Daka Fal, but with an association with the Orlanth cult (so his spirit magic from his shamans tends to be from the Orlanth list), and Orlanth provides Lightning to his stubborn but favored founder of Orlanthi clans in Dragon Pass. He'd also likely provide his own rune magic, likely Detect Honor, or a spell similar to 'Summon Son of Votank' which summons one of Heort's successors from Orlanth's halls to help out. This wouldn't be a very powerful (or common) shamanic cult, but they'd likely be involved with keeping law records and acting as lawspeakers - after all, they can directly ask the ancestors who knew Heort what his rulings might have been.

For me at least, this is how I would do it. You could likely do something similar with other long dead heroes and important figures that haven't achieved godhood themselves. Colymar might have a nascent ancestor cult too, considering at least six clans can directly claim him as a blood related ancestor. YGWV, after all. I do hope we see some ancestor cults in the homeland books. 

Except that Heort is not worshiped as an ancestor. Heck, I am not sure he really receives "cult" outside of acknowledgement as Flesh Man. He's too tied to Orlanth to separate him. We walk in his path as mortal men - that's the Orlanthi initiation rites - but the Orlanthi don't summon his spirit independently of the Orlanth cult. We don't wield his power - his powers are ours already.

11 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Here's where I disagree.  Cash loot is easy of course.

But what's the proper tithe on the one piece of iron armor from Berevenos (Dragon of Thunder Hills)?  How about a Hippogriff (Pegasus Plateau)?  Etc...

First off that stuff is damn rare. Second off, if you get an iron panoply, the rightful thing is to give the whole damn thing to the temple. Unless you are a rune master, you probably aren't going to use it anyways and this will buy you powerful favours. And if you are a rune master and you offer it to your god, odds are you are going to be told to take it from the temple and use it in the service of the temple. And even if you aren't, if you have been a diligent and devoted member of the temple, you might get told that anyway.

So actually it is pretty easy.