Jeff

17 minutes ago, MOB said:

Yeah, the Nochet I wrote up in the mid-1990s very much has a Constantinople vibe. Which I shamelessly and cheerfully just switched to Sog City when we wrote that metropolis up several years later for How the West Was One. 

[Interestingly, back on the original point, even when the post-Manzikert Byzantine Empire was at its apogee under Manuel II, definitely a if not the major power of the region, they granted trading monopolies to the Genoese and Venetians. But this was always for trade beyond the empire's borders. Ship trade inside the empire was reserved for proper Romans. My analogy here is the Choralinthor Sea.]

Yeah, but with Nochet they kind of invented oversea trade in the 1580s and I suspect you are far more likely to see the opposite - Nochet merchants given the monopoly over overseas trade. In fact we know that is how it works in Melib, and maybe even Kralorela.

7 hours ago, MOB said:

I think you must have misread Tales #13. The monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade*; my thinking when writing this some 25 years ago was the along the lines of the trading relationships the Genoese and Venetians had with the Byzantines. I agree with you that the foreigner Capratis and Du Tumerines would have nothing to do whatsoever with grain supplies to the city, or collecting tolls etc.

*writing this today, I would make this even more clear: the monopoly granted is only for sea-going trade, e.g. out into the Ocean and beyond. The Great Houses of Nochet control and monopolise domestic commerce inside the Choralinthor Sea.

Writing this today, I doubt we'd say that the founder of sea-trade at its height and center of the sailor cult would give monopoly over sea-going trade to foreign barbarians. Nochet is more Genoa or Venice than it is Constantinople. 

So it is probably worth starting from what is actually published about Rikard the Tiger-Hearted in the Guide to Glorantha:

King Rikard the Tiger-Hearted: This redoubtable adventurer, freebooter, and heretical Hrestoli exile from Tanisor briefly became King of Malkonwal by conquering the various Orlanthi tribes of southern Heortland, taking advantage of their terrible disorder after the loss of both Belintar and the governor of Heortland. Few of the Orlanthi favored the foreign conqueror, and he was recently defeated and captured in battle by the Lunar Provincial Army. Fazzur Wideread offered Rikard the kingship, but rather than accept Rikard destroyed his crown and went into hiding. His current whereabouts are unknown.

And elsewhere in that chapter:

That same year (1617), the foreign mercenary captain Rikard the Tiger-Hearted proclaimed himself “King of Malkonwal” with the aid of the Esvularings. Once king, Rikard defeated a rebellion by the Uroxi Bullmen of the Footprint and he and Broyan fought a series of indecisive skirmishes.

So what we know is that he was a Hrestoli, not a Rokari - a heretic that was exiled from Tanisor and became an adventurer and freebooter, and then exploited the disorder of 1616 to carve out a new (and very short-lived) kingdom with the support of the Esvularings. The Aeolians, despite being no more than about 10% of the population, had prospered under Belintar's rule and feared the instability of Orlanthi tribalism and Lunar conquest - and so they were amendable to having Rikard and his followers as a strong-man protector. But without the Esvularing support, Rikard would have gotten nowhere.

The Storm Bull cultists of the Footprint quarrelled with Rikard (less a theological quarrel and more the fact that the Storm Bull cult are violent fanatics who care only about fighting whatever is in the Footprint - making them an obvious threat to the nascent kingdom), and Rikard dispersed their camps (which of course meant that the Print was no longer sufficiently guarded). He quarrelled with the chief of Whitewall who was making his own bid for tribal leadership. And most importantly, he was defeated in battle in 1620 by the Lunar Army and captured. And that was the end of his kingdom. He failed the Esvularings and actually brought about exactly what they feared - I don't expect there is any nostalgia for his return.

If we now look at Heortland in the post-Dragonrise era, there is a political vacuum after the death of King Broyan (who was the leading figure 1621-1625). Scorpionmen bands ravage the villages and towns around the Print. Whitewall looks to the Sartarites for leadership. The Wolf Pirates are able to raid and plunder at will. 

I hate to disappoint folk but Rikard falls into the Roussel de Bailleul category. Rikard was a mercenary and adventurer who took advantage of the collapse the Holy Country to carve out his own little principality, which he enthusiastically called the Kingdom of Malkonwal (after the legendary city founded by Malkion after his expulsion from Brithos). His rule lasted from 1617-1620 and I strongly doubt it established deep roots. I seriously doubt that there are folk just waiting for his return five years later. 

Rikard can be an inspiration for players who want to carve out their own kingdoms, like some sort of Proto-Conan. An inspiration and a cautionary tale. Things in the Holy Country are pretty unstable for years, and there will be principalities to carve out of Tarsh and the Lunar Provinces.

On 9/9/2023 at 9:13 AM, Zac said:

I was looking through the Well and this forum for some information on Talor and it should also be noted that nothing that is on Facebook is indexed. And even on Facebook their search engine is notoriously bad. 

Edit: yes, I really dislike Facebook. 🙂

Funny that. I find it far easier to search our FB Group than BRP Central.

It is pretty common for Storm Bull cultists to marry Eiritha, Ernalda or Grain Goddess cultists. 

22 hours ago, Gary Norton said:

I stumbled across this change while familiarizing myself with Cults of RuneQuest Volume 2: The Lightbringers.

The earliest reference I could find preventing Orlanth Initiates from being a Shaman or Sorcerer is in the Avalon Hill magazine Heroes Volume 1, Number 4 (published in 1984). This magazine includes a long-form writeup of the Cult of Orlanth. Page 19, under Initiate Membership, specifies: "Initiates are forbidden to become either shamans or sorcerers." This prohibition is repeated in the Cult of Orlanth writeup in River of Cradles (published in 1992) on page 158; the verbiage was slightly tweaked to read "Initiates may not become either sorcerers or shamans."

Why do I believe this is a change? I have a copy of the Preview Edition of Gods of Glorantha from GenCon 2019. Page 265 (under Orlanth Initiate Membership) states: "Initiates are bound by cult likes and dislikes. They may not become either sorcerers or shamans." The official version of The Lightbringers volume (page 26) has removed the second sentence. The change appears to be deliberate.

Comparing the Preview Edition to the released version of The Lightbringers and The Earth Goddesses, the following cults have removed the prohibition regarding shamans and sorcerers: Orlanth, Barntar, Heler, Asrelia, and Grain Goddesses.

Per volumes 2 and 3, some Babeester Gor initiates are still prohibited from being a shaman or sorcerer. Caladra & Aurelion and Lhankor Mhy prohibit shamans, but allows sorcery. Ernalda, Eiritha, Flamal, Maran Gor, Foundchild, Odayla, Storm Bull, and Waha prohibit sorcerers, but allows shamans. [All of these are consistent with the Preview Edition.]

Since it appears that this change is deliberate, I wonder how this is reflected in the lore of Glorantha.

Option #1 (YGWV): So far as RuneQuest Glorantha is concerned, Orlanth initiates (along with the other cults) have always had the capability to become a shaman or sorcerer. 

Option #2 (Orlanth Returns): Orlanth is dead or dying during the Great Winter. With Orlanth's return, Orlanth has decided that his initiates can now become shamans and sorcerers. Unfortunately, this doesn't explain why some gods have changed their philosophy and other gods still maintain their prohibitions.

Option #3 (Sartar Magical Union): Argrath White Bull essentially takes over Orlanth worship in the Dragon Pass area and mandates that shaman and sorcerers are now welcome in the cult of Orlanth because he needs the magical power. Unfortunately, that doesn't explain why other areas of Orlanthi worship in Glorantha would allow shamans and sorcerers.

Option 1 is the canonical answer.

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I think the Ergeshi as a race-based slave-class is being deprecated by current Chaosium.

I could be mistaken--- they haven't actually published  it, as yet; but I think they are moving away from some of the elements they expect to be most-problematic in the modern era.

Nah, it is more those notes from WF 14 reflected how Greg and I were thinking about it some dozen years ago or so. Needless to say, I have done an awful lot more work understanding Dragon Pass and the formation of the Yelmalio cult there since then.

4 hours ago, RobNic said:

@Jeff wondering what your current thinking is...

Is Barntar worshipped in Sun County - either / both Dragon Pass and River of Cradles

Certainly in Pavis County he is. I suspect he has been dropped in Sun County. 

On 8/27/2023 at 12:21 PM, Zac said:

I am just trying to wrap my head around some descriptions of the Arkat Cult from the Cult Compemdium.

And

If they are Illuminated they should have lost their fear of Chaos. So why are they trying to destroy Chaos? Is it some form of false Illumination?

As pointed out by others, all sentient beings have an innate fear/hatred of Chaos (and that includes Chaotic entities). It is natural as Chaos is inherently "wrong". 

Now Illumination removes that inherent fear/hatred and the Illuminate KNOWS that Chaos is not inherently good or evil, it just is. That is unsettling at the very least.

Arkat understood that but concluded that Gbaji/Nysalor was evil (and would agree that entities like Thed, Cacodemon, etc. are evil as well). Nysalor needed to be destroyed, lest the evils he unleash grow and get worse. The temptation to use Chaos as an instrument/weapon was recognized as a moral evil, much like the temptation to use nuclear weapons is recognized as a moral evil. 

Barntar is widely known and invoked as the Plow Man. In every agricultural community, the plow is key to making seeds grow in the field. He's a phallic god, who enables Air to enter Earth. Where Orlanth Thunderous is present, Barntar is rarely the subject of an independent cult, but everyone knows him.

Does he have sons and daughters? No doubt he does, but again those offspring rarely get their own cult. 

And here's that biome in late summer.

11 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

You ought not to take to seriously or strictly that description of the vegetation as "scrub oaks".  i would gamble that the person who edited that dictionary did not have a close acquaintance with most of the terrain that people call 'chaparral=.

Besides tumbleweeds, another plant I would recommend for portions of your Prax and Wastes - it is certainly in mine - is mesquite.

Mesquite is hardy, prolific,quick growing,  thorny, grows nourishing seed pods, produces nicely grained wood when it is allowed to grow to tree size.  Leave it alone for a few years and you get a hedge that is a barrier to movement and covers acres. 

https://texnat.tamu.edu/library/symposia/brush-sculptors-innovations-for-tailoring-brushy-rangelands-to-enhance-wildlife-habitat-and-recreational-value/mesquite-ecology/

It spreads to open ground if not controlled.  Ask me how I know.

Mesquite, creosote (which is commonly called "chaparral" in many areas), and the like. 

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Having grown up in El Pado, which is at the north end of the Chihuahua desert and on the Rio Grande valley, Prax seems pretty homelike.  But the Prax rainfall is actually higher than we got.  Would you consider most of West Texas to be equivalent to The Wastes? Of course the Journadadel Muerto in New Mexico is The Wastes.  

Anyway, the published Praxian rainfall is were seasonal but not bad as an annual total.  I would suggest that if Prac and the Wastes has not had their fertility  magically damaged, they would be comfortable and more agriculturally productive.

Prax once was very comfortable and agriculturally productive. But because its soil has lost its fertility (the soils tend to be sandy or gravelly, layers of sticky clay, or even hard rock), it is not suitable for agriculture. And when it gets water, the water just flows away.

5 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Over on the RQG facebook page has been a brief discussion of Ironjaw the Dog. Which got me wondering...what other canine deities exist  inGlorantha. obviously we've the aforementioned Ironjaw, Telmor springs to mind, i seem to remember the Book of Drastic Resolutions mentioning Canis Chaos.

Anybody know of any others, regardless of edition, supplement, or gaming system ?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/RuneQuest/posts/2616740261835290/?comment_id=2616800518495931&reply_comment_id=2616835361825780

OK, the most common dog god is some variation of Brother Dog. He lets you Understand Dog and Conquer Beast. 

There's a few other dog-headed gods, like Jajagappa, but they are not really a God of Dogs. 

Telmor is not a dog god - he's a wolf god. And although they are clearly related animals, they are not the same and the cults dislike each other.

7 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I reckon that, as in a world operating on science and not divine influence, Prax is composed of a sequence and patchwork of climate-driven ecosystems.  Chaparral where marine air precipitates moisture on highlands and hills, shrub-steppe as it becomes increasingly arid inland, steppe and desert as it grades into the Wastes.  And, to be fair, there's a wide variety of generic or colloquial terms describing local specifics (plains, grassland, veldt, savannah) that could be employed in describing one part of Prax or another.  The Zola Fel, due to either magic or physics, is a greenbelt for obvious reasons.

!i!

Also it is worth keeping in mind that Sonora and even Chihuahua are not that far from sea, and if it is easier, imagine Prax as encompassing Arizona, Sonora, and Chihuahua. They even have bison!

3 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I drove through a few hundred miles of what I was told was "arid desert" in Australia's Red Centre a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty much impossible to see the desert because there was so much vegetation everwhere, presumably a consequence of a wet summer. Clearly a lesson there for any Praxians intent on a heroquest to revive Genert's Garden, if they can tear themselves away from their forthcoming plan to occupy Dragon Pass for a few moments.

Remember that much of Prax IS coastal. It borders the Rozgali Sea. Even the Rockwood Mountains are only about 450 km from the ocean. 

1 hour ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

The Praxian starting skills in the book are fecking awful, I'm not sure why there is such a discrepancy in skill points given out, are they all held back in school or something?
I've never understood why some cultures are less skilled than others in some editions of RQ. Bias in a way that makes no sense.

On cultural skills, the Praxians and the Grazelanders win the contest. Frex, we get:
Sartarites 75

Lunar Tarsh 85

Old Tarsh 75

Esrolians 90

Grazelands 95

Praxians 120 (!)

Now the Grazelanders and Praxians get a BIG bonus to their Ride and Herd to make sure that they are able to do that (Ride is +35 and Herd is +30). The Esrolians get are better at farming and trade talk than anyone else, plus get a few points in skills that reflect their urban culture.

The Sartarites get a LOT of points in weapon skills, but that is largely because they get a broader range of cultural weapons. None get more than a +15%. The Praxians have a narrower band of cultural weapons, and again none are more than +15%.

So if we look at a Bison Rider, they get a total of 175 points. A Sartarite gets only 165. 

But whatever, you are welcome to complain all you wish.

You all can wait for the Solar book on that one. But this is about the Lightbringers and Earth Goddesses book.

52 minutes ago, GoldShogun said:

I have a question that is tangentially related to the topic.

How much choice does the individual have when it comes to following the cult relationships especially when it comes to hostile and enemy cults.

I imagine most follow the party line when it comes to what cult dislikes who but can an individual ignore that and if so is there any punishment?  Could a Red Goddess initiate be friends with an Orlanthi one or a solar being friends with a darkness cultist or is it safe to assume they are going to fight on sight?

Individuals have lots of lee-way. This represents the ceremonial attitudes of the cults towards each other.

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

A snapshot in Time, agreed.

A snapshot in space? Different relationships in different parts of the Lozenge?

I think there is an element of this, but again it is probably largely due to lack of contact and activity. So for example, we could imagine some Seven Mothers missionaries making it to Umathela and initially getting a Neutral response from the local Orlanth cult. That might be able to be sustained for some time assuming: 1. the Red Goddess cult studiously avoids displaying Chaos, and 2. the Seven Mothers don't try to displace the Orlanth cult socially or magically. Sooner or later some jerk would screw it up, but might be able to last for quite a while (especially if there are not many Illuminates).

But rarely will we have a cult that is generally hostile or an enemy to another cult be any better than Neutral thanks to lack of contact.

2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Genuine question for Jeff: do you think cult compatibility charts somehow express Universal Setting Truths, or are they more situational? How far would you let the relationship between two cults vary from that shown on the charts, in different times, places and contexts? It seems to me that a cult is a mortal construct, fallibly led, bounded by Time and shaped by History, and not an immutable truth. To take an obvious example, Dara Happan leadership after the failed First Wane rebellion had a different attitude to the Red Goddess than the previous management: was this change reflected in the then-extant cult compatibility chart?

The cult compatibility charts are a snapshot in Time. Some cults do change their compatibility within Time, others do not. 

But I also think there is less of this than people might think. For example, in the First Wane I think the Yelm cult was Associated with the Red Goddess cult (thanks to Yelmgatha and the Red Goddess) and the Red Emperor was the high priest of Yelm. But for largely political reasons, the Tripolis rebelled against the Red Emperor. 

This to me is no different than two Orlanthi tribes fighting with each other or two Waha worshiping tribes fighting with each other.

Where I think it happens a lot is when cults are Neutral towards each other because they have not really interacted with each other. Pamalt is neutral towards the Red Goddess. But I suspect that is just that he doesn't know her yet.

9 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Yes, I can clarify. My sense of the Praxians is something like:

40% of them despise the city and want nothing to do with it

30% are neutral and dislike it, but use it because its handy

10% quite like what it offers as a variation and are happy to visit and even stay nearby for a while

20% think it is an utter abomination and would like it wiped off the face of the lozenge, but never have to go near it so don't give it much thought

Culturally my sense is that they are supposed to actively hate it, and that it goes against the precepts of Waha, but that most Eirithans counsel tolerance

I don't think that is the case. Again the cults are Neutral. So probably much more like:

60% are completely pragmatic towards it. That's the Waha and Eiritha factions.

10% are hostile towards it. This tends to be the Storm Bull faction.

20% are friendly towards it. This tends to be Lightbringers and Solar factions.

10% don't have any opinion. This tends to be the Daka Fal faction.

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well let's be fair - he attacks Pavis because it is the Lunar command center in Prax. And it is very easy to get Orlanth, Waha, and Storm Bull on board to do that.

Argrath's contribution to this is that he finds a way to get the members of these cults to work together towards a goal their gods are all copacetic with.

1 minute ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yes, I know. That’s the point I was making. Argrath attacks Pavis for Argrath’s reasons, not Waha’s or Storm Bull’s or anybody else’s.

Well let's be fair - he attacks Pavis because it is the Lunar command center in Prax. And it is very easy to get Orlanth, Waha, and Storm Bull on board to do that.