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Jeff

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Everything posted by Jeff

  1. I certainly don't see the Orlanthi as being much like what was described. My Orlanthi are troublesome, ambitious, constantly breaking their own rules, torn between honor and loyalty, and often overly pragmatic when it comes to their own self-interest. They often recognise no authority except that which has the power to back it up (over and over again). They pick fights with Elder Races over resources they want, make plenty of short-term self-interested deals (and break long-standing traditions when they are no longer in their short-term interest). Sartar stands out as someone who was able to overcome these limitations - through trade, money, and the power. His dynasty tempered the natural inclinations of the Orlanthi - first through money, second through getting the tribes to share certain valuable resources they couldn't have by themselves, and then finally through raw military might.
  2. Jeff

    Elmal?

    That's my take as well. Honestly much of this discussion makes little sense to me at all. If playing a Yelmalion as described in the Cults Book doesn't interest you, then don't play one. Meanwhile Elmal has taken on some extra-Glorantha totemic role, which may fit into one's personal mythology but not into the Glorantha of ongoing publication. YGWV and all that, but I see absolutely nothing in this thread to make me reconsider the role Greg and I gave Elmal in RQG - that of a local variant of Yelmalio that has been dying out since the 1560s.
  3. GRoY is the Dara Happan aristocracies presentation of the acceptable face of Yelm. It reveals much but it also conceals much.
  4. Regardless, the Runequest Campaign, which covers 1625 to 1655 (plus and minus a few years as well) is in the works. Its origins predate the Pendragon Campaign and informed and inspired that, Boy King, and the Grand Pendragon Campaign. It's been present in the background of all Gloranthan publications since before Runequest itself and bringing it out is a top priority for the next year.
  5. Yes. Deadwood was haunted by zombie Aldryami who tended their dead groves. With ritual, dance, and need. Although some say that the result is less reproduction than awakening what was already there. The spirit of Knowledge inhabits the stacks itself. It defends the library from theft, fire, water, wind, rats, beetles, and other damage.
  6. Jeff

    Elmal?

    This is absolutely true, You can do what you want with your Glorantha. When I am writing these forums, I am laying down the take we will take in publications, and also helpfully giving details useful for people who want to use those publications, write for us, etc. If you as an individual GM or player want to go in a different direction, go for it.
  7. Jeff

    Elmal?

    In Glorantha things do get proven to the acceptance of most everyone. Khordavu definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that the Dara Happans know more about the Sun God than their neighbours, and Yelm was quickly acknowledged throughout Peloria and beyond. Harmast definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that Orlanth led the Seven Lightbringers, having performed the quest twice to restore a Broken World. Now perhaps in the Hero Wars, someone proves to most everyone's satisfaction that Yelmalio is actually responsible for destroying Sedenya in the Lesser Darkness, or maybe that it was Yelmalio who killed the Sky Tyrant (both could be prove very useful in the Hero Wars). Or maybe an Orlanthi might prove that Elmal was a name for Reladivus, who served Orlanth instead of being destroyed by Ram Barbarians (and thus not Yelmalio). But in the Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay. Jeff
  8. Jeff

    Elmal?

    But the Lunars are right about many of their claims. Their Goddess did gain acknowledgement from most of the forces of the cosmos at the Battle of Castle Blue (although some claim she cheated). She has proven her power over and over again, which is usually a pretty good authority. She acknowledges that she embraces Chaos - AND that is what keeps her from being fully accepted by Orlanth, Storm Bull, and others. But no one denies that she is the Red Moon Goddess. Same thing with Orlanth. He led the Lightbringers Quest, made peace with Yelm, and helped form the Cosmic Compromise that saved the Cosmos. He may be a rebel, a murderer, and a destroyer, but he can back up those claims. Even Yelm acknowledges it (although he puts the emphasis a bit differently).
  9. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Also most Gloranthans are Lumpers, not Splitters. That's not just the God Learners, but the Theyalan missionaries, the Lunars, and many others. A Sun Priest and an Light Priest challenge each other over the identity of the Sun by magical contest of clarification and identification. The Light Priest can show off his light magic, can see in the dark, etc. and prove that his god did not die in the Darkness, but the Sun Priest can get the Light Priest's god to acknowledge that Yelm is the Sun who died with the Darkness and returned with the Dawn. A similar thing happens when a Storm Voice encounters a Storm Khan - the Storm Voice can demand aid from the Storm Khan and the Khan must accept, although he may demand a price in return. That isn't social convention - that's Storm Bull acknowledging Orlanth. And it happened wherever the Orlanthi went. Two Light Priests meet. The first says that their god is the ally and servant of Orlanth and calls upon Orlanth for the gift of Shield. The other says that their god is no servant, but is the son of the Sun and calls upon Yelm for the gift of Shield. Both are right, for at times Lightfore did aid Orlanth and at times Lightfore fought with Orlanth. But the second can likely reveal more secrets than the first, and can reveal what Yelmalio received at the Hill of Gold and fill it the gaps in stories that now make more sense. And they ask Elmal if this is true and he says yes. Some refuse this new insight, because of tradition, ambition, politics, or identity, but most accept this. When they worship Yelmalio, no spirits of retribution come for them, and Elmal does not protest.
  10. Harald is absolute right here. It is evil because it is poisonous (salt-water) and cannot be used for drinking or irrigation.
  11. Jeff

    Elmal?

    If Zeus and Jupiter were real and not cultural contructs, they are either the gods of certain phenomena with many names and many aspects in many lands, or they are tribal patrons. Yelmalio is not a mere tribal patron (nor is Orlanth). He is a real deity, with many names (including Elmal, Antirius, Kargzant, etc.). I call him "Yelmalio" in the Cults Book because that what Greg and I normally called him unless were were talking about a local version or variant. You look at GRoY, Entekosiad, etc., and the monomyth is still there. There is a consistent whole to Gloranthan mythology - that's a key part of its appeal. You can see elements of the Weapons Contest in the conflict between Oorsu Sara and Govmeranen. Details differ because the mythic event is being experienced from a different vantage point or with different purposes and priorities. But the framework is still there. Jeff
  12. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Harvar didn't have to work very hard, since the Tarshite settlers knew Yelmalio Golden Spear, and not the Hendriki Elmal. But do you have the same degree of concern whether Orlanth Adventurous is the same god as Orlanth Thunderous? Or whether Zeus is Jupiter?
  13. Jeff

    Elmal?

    They were originally detailed by Greg as "Hyaloring Triarchy - three pony clans. Enyhli are the Yelmalio clan. Join Colymar c 1410."
  14. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Kargzant/Yelmalio does not have much of a cult among the Grazers or other Pure Horse People (such as the Char'un). They are descended from the Hyalorings, and maintained strict taboos that kept them "pure" enough to directly contact Yelm with the Dawn. During the rule of the Sons of the Sun, they served as a priestly tribe. The Grazers did not embrace Yelmalio (whose cult is much more open and accessible than Yelm's) during their time in Prax, and remained "pure" Yelm worshipers. Although they have included worship of the Lightbringers, and have switched Dendara for Ernalda, they are still Yelm worshipers rather than Yelmalion (as explained in Greg's old essay, the Grazers's beliefs were untroubled by the renewed contact with lowland Peloria - in part because they already had their crisis of faith and ended up with the Feathered Horse Queen).
  15. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Few Orlanthi have any problem at all with Yelm in the sky. After all, putting him back there was Orlanth's greatest deed.
  16. Jeff

    Elmal?

    By putting up a column to Jupiter Dolichenus. And maybe labelling it also in Greek as Zeus Orimasdes.
  17. Wilmskirk claims to have temples to all the gods, although that boast may be a bit of an exaggeration. The Rent-A-Shrine is really nice though.
  18. I've really never understood this attitude. If I was playing a game set in the late Roman Republic, I'd want Caesar to cross the Rubicon, only to be assassinated a few years later. And I'd ideally want the players to be responsible for both.
  19. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Probably about the same as if you got a Roman, an Athenian, a Thracian, and a Syrian together. They'd likely all agree that Jupiter, Zeus, Zibelthiurdos, and Baal are names for the same entity (the old interpretatio graeco) and be impressed with whoever had the most secrets about the god.
  20. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Different Earth goddess in Sartar? There's Ernalda, Esrola, Kero Fin, sometimes Pelora, Maran Gor (who is the twin of Ernalda and sometimes conflated). Go a little further and you start getting Dendara, Pelora-Oria, and not to mention Deezola and Hon-eel. Try to tell me where Ernalda ends and Esrola or Pelora begins. Or where Ernalda is Dendara, and where she is not. The most consolidated cult is probably Orlanth, and even he has Humakt and Storm Bull circling around, not to mention Ygg if you go far enough out. And that you can probably blame on Harmast, Arkat, and Alakoring.
  21. Jeff

    Elmal?

    More to the point, the Book of Heortling Mythology was the collection of every Orlanthi myth Greg and I could find and put together as a reference document SO WE COULD SIFT THROUGH IT. Like all of the Unfinished Works, it is not intended to canon or definitive - it is a work in progress, a notebook. It was certainly not intended to be a straightjacket for us and to be honest, I don't even recommend writers use it as a resource (as better resources now exist). Greg was always deeply ambivalent about publishing these unfinished works. I thought it was a good idea to give people access to these notebooks, as I figured they'd use them as a well of ideas, some of which may well get contradicted by finished publications.
  22. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Yelmalio appears in Orlanth's myths. And Yelmalio also has his own myth cycle - which actually has more interaction with Orlanth and Ernalda. And I don't think Elmal is the oldest of the Lightfore cults. That honor probably goes to Antirius and Kargzant. Or maybe even Yamsur. Jeff
  23. Jeff

    Elmal?

    Come on guys, this is what the Guide actually says: On page 37 Elmal is listed among "Minor Gods" as "Elmal the Sun God." On page 152, Elmal is listed in the Storm Pantheon as Elmal the Sun God with the runes of Fire and Truth. That's a typo - should be Light and Truth. There's a few other errors in that chapter about the Runes for specific gods, all of which are corrected in the Cults Book. Page 160, Elmal is described as "a horse carrying the Sun on his back." Note that the Sun is not Elmal. Page 188, Runegate is described as having a temple to Elmal the Sun God and Hyalor Horsebreaker. That's true. Page 236, illustration has Elmal the Sun Stallion pulling Orlanth and Ernalda's chariot. That's an in-Gloranthan piece of art, possibly dating to the First Age. Before you all argue with me about this, I wrote all of this. None of that contradicts what all I have been saying (except the typo on page 152). Gloranthans themselves do not make these sorts of Talmudic distinction. Elmal may well remain an artistic feature (the Sun Stallion) - even though his actual cult now identifies him as Yelmalio. The Orlanthi call the Sun Disk "Yelm" but recognise numerous minor sun gods (Elmal, Yelmalio, Yamsur, Sun Hawk, etc.). Elmal's cult is now largely subsumed into Yelmalio's AND that has been the case since Greg wrote his "Making Gods" essay (which I advise reading carefully).
  24. Jeff

    Elmal?

    I am pretty sure that is not in the Guide to the Glorantha. Or the Sourcebook. May I ask what you are referring to?
  25. What we know of Godtime is what we or others have experienced - those moments the separate worlds unite together. I saw the Battle of Stormfall, and watched Vingkot take a terrible wound. But in another quest, I saw Vingkot immolate himself atop his fiery pyre, surrounded by gods who died at that battle. I am mortal, I do not exist in the Godtime. I piece it together as well as I can but even that is subject to mortal limitations. I know it is there - I've seen it, experienced it, tasted it - and I know it is endless and eternal, always there, always recurring. But it is divine, not mortal.
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