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Jeff

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Posts posted by Jeff

  1. 9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

    I think Jeff touches on something very important here. When we read background material about Orlanthi culture, it's easy to get the impression that everyone always acts according to the cultural schemae (ie. internally consistent set of norms) set out there. In reality, almost everyone cheats the system every now and then, gives up if it's too hard, is tempted, is biased, etc. 

    People are flawed, and no cultural schema exists that can totally encompass that. 

    Also, the cultural schemae is, of course, not static. If enough people cheat, then the cheat becomes the new schema. Then they collectively forget the old norms and pretend they always did it the new way. They might even get ancestors who agree - magic is weird like that. 

    On the other hand, gods and magics exist that might spark reactionary movements. 

    And lastly - might is right. It's very difficult to get around that. The Orlanthi may have a system of rights and obligations, but they are definitely easier to claim if you've got a lot of cousins and in-laws with spears and corslets backing you up and being willing to murder someone to satisfy your claim, to be blunt.

    Also the Orlanthi are defined by their god - "both the murderer of Yelm who plunged the world into darkness and the leader of the Lightbringers who revived the world, Orlanth is the God of Heroes, an untamed destroyer who nonetheless protects life and aids civilization. He destroys not to end the world but to make way for the new. Orlanth made the world what it is through his deeds and his cult is destined to play a central role in the Hero Wars."

    The Orlanth cult provides perfectly good encouragement for much of the problematic elements in Orlanthi society. Local farmer, "Hey, these are strange new powers or ideas - what would Orlanth do?" Orlanthi hero, "he'd take them and use them against his foes!"  Local farmer, "But what if they are bad?" Orlanthi hero, "Pffft. We'll deal with that later. We have the Red Goddess to overthrow first!"

    Your clans leaders might say that the EWF was horrible, but at the same time they know that once upon a time the Storm Voices could command dragons and the Wind Lords conquered kingdoms. Maybe before the Dragonrise all that got ignored, but now it is back out in the open. Maybe the old sages say God Learnism was a bad foreign thing, but their texts and lore prove otherwise. And the path that Minaryth Purple walked is now open to other clever and curious sages. And so on.

    Throw Humakt, Storm Bull, and Maran Gor into that mix, and you can imagine things getting dangerous fast. And if you keep in mind that the Orlanthi have suffered from a generation of occupation and close to a decade of war leading up to the start of RQG, there's going to be a lot more imperfection than the high amount the Orlanthi normally have.

     

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  2. 1 hour ago, Minlister said:

    It seems to me that there is a tendency to make Orlanthi society a "perfect, gender-inclusive, land of the brave and home of the free where the paramount importance of individual freedom is tempered by a deep sense of responsibility and everybody is eating free-range cattle and organic wheat and using a sustainable rune magic economy (not to mention Issaries spell fair-trade)".

    Before anyone has the temptation to jump to my throat I stress that I am all for these values in the real world.

    But does it make sense in a fictional world? How can we play in an interesting way the encounter between Orlanthi and Lunar ways if we polish one to moral perfection?

    So  my question would be: what are, from your point of view, the "dark and mean streaks of the Orlanthi society" that are worth staging for the sake of a good, balanced, game"? 

    I certainly don't see the Orlanthi as being much like what was described.

    My Orlanthi are troublesome, ambitious, constantly breaking their own rules, torn between honor and loyalty, and often overly pragmatic when it comes to their own self-interest. They often recognise no authority except that which has the power to back it up (over and over again). They pick fights with Elder Races over resources they want, make plenty of short-term self-interested deals (and break long-standing traditions when they are no longer in their short-term interest). 

    Sartar stands out as someone who was able to overcome these limitations - through trade, money, and the power. His dynasty tempered the natural inclinations of the Orlanthi - first through money, second through getting the tribes to share certain valuable resources they couldn't have by themselves, and then finally through raw military might.

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  3. 12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

    I'm honestly confused why people are pushing for Yelmalio to have more war magic. He hasn't had anything more than Shield and one-use Sunspear since his first writeup, and I've never seen people complaining about it till now. Granted, I wasn't around back then, but my skims over the mailing list and such haven't revealed any controversy over how useful his magics. There's also a point to be made that giving him things like his own Sunspear and Truespear would defeat the purpose of the cult's entire core myth - he doesn't need his weapons, his own virtues are what saw him through, not some silly weapon, and so his worshippers rely on their own virtues as well. They may not be able to throw fire and cut down enemy ranks singlehandedly, but what they lack in magic they make up for in will, grit, training, and the knowledge that the light will continue, whether they personally stand or fall.

    (Also he'd technically have Truesword if he had kept his weapons from the darkness, not Truespear. "His favored weapons of bow and sword fell also, and were absorbed into the knowledge of the whole world.")

    That's my take as well. Honestly much of this discussion makes little sense to me at all. If playing a Yelmalion as described in the Cults Book doesn't interest you, then don't play one. Meanwhile Elmal has taken on some extra-Glorantha totemic role, which may fit into one's personal mythology but not into the Glorantha of ongoing publication. YGWV and all that, but I see absolutely nothing in this thread to make me reconsider the role Greg and I gave Elmal in RQG - that of a local variant of Yelmalio that has been dying out since the 1560s. 

    • Like 6
  4. 6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

    I scoured The Glorious Reascent, and it seems I must've misremembered. 

    The goddess who claims a child by Yelm is Galgarenge, the Griffin Goddess. 

    In my mind, this role was taken by a bat goddess, or night sky goddess. It turns out that the Bat Goddess is Mahaquata, which is also possibly Quatanara, the goddess of the Blue Moon Plateau - ie. associated with the Blue Moon goddess complex (and partial cause of Murhazam's death and Yelm's subsequent disintegration in Dara Happan mythology) The Night goddess is Netta - and is early on described as a part of Yelm's "Other" (and in a particular myth, the first Yelm recognizes as such, implying that she's the first Darkness entity he's acknowledged, I think). 

    In my mind there existed some story where Netta may have been involved with Yelm, but from a Troll perspective of something (I forget the troll name of the goddess of the night sky). I am apparently wrong. 

    Still, Netta and Yelm would be decent picks of parentage of Basko - a lineage that can of course coexist along with Basko as an expression of Yelm's Shadow. 

    Anyway, it's probably a dead end.

    GRoY is the Dara Happan aristocracies presentation of the acceptable face of Yelm. It reveals much but it also conceals much.

  5. 36 minutes ago, Lysus said:

    I think the first paragraph there is a rather uncharitable reading of my position - I'm not asking for a picaresque of largely unconnected encounters. If I'm using a system where I might be rolling random encounters, one of the key things to do is to make changes to the world (including encounter tables) based on what has happened in the campaign. 

    I definitely prefer scenarios with a strong sense of time and place, but I despise metaplot. What I'd want is content set in many different locales but all at roughly the same time. That way I can make changes to other scenarios based on what my players have done before they encounter them. I don't know if you're familiar with Apocalypse World's Fronts mechanic, but I find that it works wonderfully for clarifying what's important, thinking about how things are likely to change (especially if the PCs don't intervene), and pushing the song forward in a way that makes it feel alive. 

    This plays into your last point - an antagonist's goals are one of the central things I'm going to use to create a Front and what I use to update that Front after the PCs get in the way. As Fronts resolve, it's time to bring in new antagonists with new goals. The number of active threats varies but I usually want it to be high enough that the PCs aren't comfortable but low enough that they don't feel completely overwhelmed. 

    Regardless, the Runequest Campaign, which covers 1625 to 1655 (plus and minus a few years as well) is in the works. Its origins predate the Pendragon Campaign and informed and inspired that, Boy King, and the Grand Pendragon Campaign. It's been present in the background of all Gloranthan publications since before Runequest itself and bringing it out is a top priority for the next year.

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  6. On 1/26/2020 at 5:42 PM, Bohemond said:

    These all grew out of a gaming session, so they're not actually totally random, but they look like it. 

    1) Can the Aldryami be brought back as the Undead?

    Yes. Deadwood was haunted by zombie Aldryami who tended their dead groves.

    On 1/26/2020 at 5:42 PM, Bohemond said:

    2) How do dryads reproduce? Will the seeds of their tree produce a dryad or is something more required?

    With ritual, dance, and need. Although some say that the result is less reproduction than awakening what was already there.

    On 1/26/2020 at 5:42 PM, Bohemond said:

    3) Anyone have any idea what the wyter of the Jonstown Library is? 

    The spirit of Knowledge inhabits the stacks itself. It defends the library from theft, fire, water, wind, rats, beetles, and other damage.

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  7. 5 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

    In the canonical Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

    And there's nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't have anything to do with the game I'm running. 

    If I'm invited to play in someone else's game and they've chosen to be canonical about Yelmalio and Elmal, that will be my character's truth and I'll play them accordingly.

    Arguments about it are fun to watch and occasionally unearth some tidbit of lore I wasn't aware of, but other than that they're pointless. Canon is what the franchise owners say it is. That's exactly as it should be.

    The weight of canon doesn't extend any further than the covers of an official publication, though. It's not like there are competitive Glorantha tourneys being played that people will be disqualified from if they show up with a non-canonical god in their army list. It's not like canon is enforceable at your table or mine.

    Canon (and the Vice-Presidency) isn't worth a warm bucket of spit, so why fret about it? I'm perfectly content with the Chaosium sourcebooks. They're well-written, inspire me to run games, and are well worth the price even if I don't decide to use everything in them.

    This is absolutely true, You can do what you want with your Glorantha. 

    When I am writing these forums, I am laying down the take we will take in publications, and also helpfully giving details useful for people who want to use those publications, write for us, etc. If you as an individual GM or player want to go in a different direction, go for it.

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  8. 24 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

    And this makes things interesting. Which is why I would prefer both sides having a point or a case in Yelmalio/Elmal, as well, without an objective referee deciding who is right.

    Elmal worship is getting very close to just doing it wrong.

    In Glorantha things do get proven to the acceptance of most everyone. Khordavu definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that the Dara Happans know more about the Sun God than their neighbours, and Yelm was quickly acknowledged throughout Peloria and beyond. Harmast definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that Orlanth led the Seven Lightbringers, having performed the quest twice to restore a Broken World.

    Now perhaps in the Hero Wars, someone proves to most everyone's satisfaction that Yelmalio is actually responsible for destroying Sedenya in the Lesser Darkness, or maybe that it was Yelmalio who killed the Sky Tyrant (both could be prove very useful in the Hero Wars). Or maybe an Orlanthi might prove that Elmal was a name for Reladivus, who served Orlanth instead of being destroyed by Ram Barbarians (and thus not Yelmalio). But in the Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

    Jeff

  9. 2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

    How is the Hill of Gold a better core myth than Elmal Guards the Stead?

    What I find so unusual about this whole discussion is that Glorantha is normally very wary of deciding that someone is right and someone else is wrong. There would never be any objective statements that the Lunars are in the right and the Orlanthi just fools, or vice versa. But with Elmal/Yelmalio, we now essentially have Word of God that Elmalites are just stubborn reactionary fools who can’t accept the actual truth for bad reasons.

     

    But the Lunars are right about many of their claims. Their Goddess did gain acknowledgement from most of the forces of the cosmos at the Battle of Castle Blue (although some claim she cheated). She has proven her power over and over again, which is usually a pretty good authority. She acknowledges that she embraces Chaos - AND that is what keeps her from being fully accepted by Orlanth, Storm Bull, and others. But no one denies that she is the Red Moon Goddess.

    Same thing with Orlanth. He led the Lightbringers Quest, made peace with Yelm, and helped form the Cosmic Compromise that saved the Cosmos. He may be a rebel, a murderer, and a destroyer, but he can back up those claims. Even Yelm acknowledges it (although he puts the emphasis a bit differently).

     

  10. 2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

    It's the age old Lumpers vs Splitters debate, and which is more important the similarities or the differences.

    While I am very much a splitter, I'd also say neither is a wrong way to view things, and certainly lumping is more useful for most rpg experiences.

    Also most Gloranthans are Lumpers, not Splitters. That's not just the God Learners, but the Theyalan missionaries, the Lunars, and many others. A Sun Priest and an Light Priest challenge each other over the identity of the Sun by magical contest of clarification and identification. The Light Priest can show off his light magic, can see in the dark, etc. and prove that his god did not die in the Darkness, but the Sun Priest can get the Light Priest's god to acknowledge that Yelm is the Sun who died with the Darkness and returned with the Dawn. A similar thing happens when a Storm Voice encounters a Storm Khan - the Storm Voice can demand aid from the Storm Khan and the Khan must accept, although he may demand a price in return. That isn't social convention - that's Storm Bull acknowledging Orlanth. And it happened wherever the Orlanthi went. 

    Two Light Priests meet. The first says that their god is the ally and servant of Orlanth and calls upon Orlanth for the gift of Shield. The other says that their god is no servant, but is the son of the Sun and calls upon Yelm for the gift of Shield. Both are right, for at times Lightfore did aid Orlanth and at times Lightfore fought with Orlanth. But the second can likely reveal more secrets than the first, and can reveal what Yelmalio received at the Hill of Gold and fill it the gaps in stories that now make more sense.  And they ask Elmal if this is true and he says yes. Some refuse this new insight, because of tradition, ambition, politics, or identity, but most accept this. When they worship Yelmalio, no spirits of retribution come for them, and Elmal does not protest.

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  11. 15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

    It's "evil" because it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, i.e. flow downhill. And it's evil because it's salty, so when it floods it deposits salts not silts, and consequently bad for growing crops. And it's evil because it refused Magasta's call.

    But it's definitely NOT Chaos. So not evil in that sense. But it is like the ancient Blue Dragon, so the Earth cults don't like it; and the Storm cults fought the Seas here so they don't like it either.

    Harald is absolute right here. It is evil because it is poisonous (salt-water) and cannot be used for drinking or irrigation. 

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  12. 2 hours ago, Darius West said:

    I would say that these aspects are very divergent.  They can't even access many of the same spells.  As to Zeus and Jupiter, there are huge differences.  In fact there were huge inconsistencies in how Zeus was worshipped.  For example not many people talk about Lycaean Zeus, i.e. Zeus the Werewolf as worshipped by the Neuri, was not at all similar to how Zeus was worshipped in other places.  Regional variation was and is important.

    Also, if you look up the Vantaros clan, one thing that comes across loud and clear is that they have banned Elmal worship.  Now if there was no Elmal worship that wouldn't be necessary would it?  Clearly there was Elmal worship that Harvar felt he needed to suppress.  I think the Tarshites didn't have many Yelmalio worshippers in their ranks at all, and the ones who did exist were subsumed into Elmal worship voluntarily for want of a shrine.  Monrogh's schism only happened 44 years ago for Sartarites, and it was likely a Lunar plot to sow disunity in the Kingdom.

    I would also point out that Elmal even has distinct spirits of retribution, including the Yoskati and Reflartings.  Yelmalio only has Monrogh as its spirit of retribution.  It is also worth pointing out that Elmal's runes  are fire and truth, while Yelmalio's runes are light and truth.  Ergo, Elmal has intact fire powers.

    If Zeus and Jupiter were real and not cultural contructs, they are either the gods of certain phenomena with many names and many aspects in many lands, or they are tribal patrons. Yelmalio is not a mere tribal patron (nor is Orlanth). He is a real deity, with many names (including Elmal, Antirius, Kargzant, etc.). I call him "Yelmalio" in the Cults Book because that what Greg and I normally called him unless were were talking about a local version or variant.

    You look at GRoY, Entekosiad, etc., and the monomyth is still there. There is a consistent whole to Gloranthan mythology - that's a key part of its appeal. You can see elements of the Weapons Contest in the conflict between Oorsu Sara and Govmeranen. Details differ because the mythic event is being experienced from a different vantage point or with different purposes and priorities. But the framework is still there.

    Jeff

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  13. 12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

    I completely agree with this.  In the meantime however, the indigenous Heortland version of Yelmalio was very different to that of Saird, having been split off for the duration of the Line of Death at least, and probably longer.  This is in contrast with the Sun County Yelmalios, who were obviously of a more Sairdite persuasion.  On the other hand, Monrogh only happened about 44 years ago in Glorantha.  Prior to that Elmal was a separate entity, and while Harvar Ironfist has worked hard to force Elmal tribes to become Yelmalios, there are still hold-outs, much like in any period of colonial oppression.  Elmal is culturally distinct, and while one can choose to convert to Yelmalio,  there is good reason not to. 

    Harvar didn't have to work very hard, since the Tarshite settlers knew Yelmalio Golden Spear, and not the Hendriki Elmal.

    But do you have the same degree of concern whether Orlanth Adventurous is the same god as Orlanth Thunderous? Or whether Zeus is Jupiter?

  14. 51 minutes ago, metcalph said:

    My own opinion is that they were Pure Horse People who ended up among the Hendriki in the Imperial Age.  Seeking ancestors to make themselves acceptable to their new neighbours, they took up the worship of Beren and al.  Thus at the start of the human resettlement, they were thoroughly accultured Orlanthi with a funny history.

    Other interpretations are possible and routes are possible, mind you.

    They were originally detailed by Greg as "Hyaloring Triarchy - three pony clans. Enyhli are the Yelmalio clan. Join Colymar c 1410."

  15. 16 minutes ago, Mirza said:

    I actually have a question that this topic is somewhat related to, does Kargzant have a Hill of Gold style quest? Forgive my ignorance, but while I know Kargzant's mythic role to the Pentans, and Grazers as their Lightfore god, and thus probably has one, I'm not familiar with his myths themselves.

    I'm also wondering a bit about how in Grazer religion how much Kargzant is subsumed into Yu-Kargzant, are there still Kargzant cultists in Grazer society? Or is the subsuming of Kargzant so complete that he is only given praise to in worship for Yu-Kargzant? I know the Solar Pentans worship him still apart from the Sun as his own deity, but the Grazers it's more ambiguous to me.

    Kargzant/Yelmalio does not have much of a cult among the Grazers or other Pure Horse People (such as the Char'un). They are descended from the Hyalorings, and maintained strict taboos that kept them "pure" enough to directly contact Yelm with the Dawn. During the rule of the Sons of the Sun, they served as a priestly tribe. The Grazers did not embrace Yelmalio (whose cult is much more open and accessible than Yelm's) during their time in Prax, and remained "pure" Yelm worshipers. Although they have included worship of the Lightbringers, and have switched Dendara for Ernalda, they are still Yelm worshipers rather than Yelmalion (as explained in Greg's old essay, the Grazers's beliefs were untroubled by the renewed contact with lowland Peloria - in part because they already had their crisis of faith and ended up with the Feathered Horse Queen).

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  16. 6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

    I finally got my hands (mouse??) on Smoking Ruins today.

    Perhaps you can understand my bemusement given this thread (and others like it) at the opening lines of the first adventure...

    "It is Waterday, Harmony Week, in 1626, a typical day in Clearwine Fort. The weather is beautiful: bright, sunny, warm. Yelm shines in all his glory, his worshippers couldn't ask for anything better. Auspicious indeed".

     

    Unless, of course, you're Orlanthi!!! 

    Few Orlanthi have any problem at all with Yelm in the sky. After all, putting him back there was Orlanth's greatest deed.

     

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  17. Just now, Minlister said:

    And then the Roman calls the legion and win the argument

    By putting up a column to Jupiter Dolichenus. And maybe labelling it also in Greek as Zeus Orimasdes.

     

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  18. 16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

    Presumably most only get shrines among associated cults.

    Wilmskirk claims to have temples to all the gods, although that boast may be a bit of an exaggeration. The Rent-A-Shrine is really nice though.

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  19. 5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

    I'm leaning the other way.  No offense to Jeff and others doing all that hard work, but I'd prefer a game where we don't need to force things into a predetermined timeline.

    Nor do I want to play only "low level clan stuff".  Say our PCs go to battle of Queen's, and we all Crit our Battle rolls.  Does Kallyr still automatically lose?  Makes you wonder why you even bother.  🙂

    Hoping none of our GMs read the Campaign Book.

    I've really never understood this attitude. If I was playing a game set in the late Roman Republic, I'd want Caesar to cross the Rubicon, only to be assassinated a few years later. And I'd ideally want the players to be responsible for both.

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  20. 12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

    Hm. If you had an Elmali, a Yelmalion, a Kargzanti, and an Antirian all together, what would they think of each other? I'd imagine the Yelmalion would either try to convince them they really worshiped Yelmalio or just be quietly assured of it himself, but how would the others feel about worshippers of the other forms of Lightfore?

    Probably about the same as if you got a Roman, an Athenian, a Thracian, and a Syrian together. They'd likely all agree that Jupiter, Zeus, Zibelthiurdos, and Baal are names for the same entity (the old interpretatio graeco) and be impressed with whoever had the most secrets about the god.  

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  21. 2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

    So the only two options are "play by the dice" or "play by the 40 years of published canon lore"? Nah, I'm very much OK with pitching a cult to a player and if it somehow resonates with them, they can play however they want within the broad boundaries. There are enough "balances and checks" in place in the form of Runes and Passions to keep them in the archetype... and for the rest, isn't collaborative worldbuilding the whole philosophy here? There's no "one right way" to play any cult IMHO.

    Gotta agree with that. When I first read RQG (while knowing only a little about Glorantha) I was a bit confused as to why we have both Yelm and Yelmalio in there, as I thought that was a bit redundant (compared to the other deities who don't have that much overlap). And then I realized it's not even Yelm, it's really Yu-Kargzant, and then I learned about more sun-related crazyness, and now I'm thinking "why are we doing this to ourselves?". There's no such thing happening with water or earth or any other deities and cults. Arguably it's because the Earth Goddesses are the only grown ups in the pantheon and can figure things out between themselves, and because sun-god worshippers are, for the most part, all crazy alpha-males who keep fighting each other (in which case, forget the myths, the worshippers are just going with whatever the victors tell them). So anyway, yes, less moving parts are good -- Glorantha is already all moving parts all the way down.

    I get your point and I agree, but for me this is not the situation here: if you go by HQ-era canon you have no less than 4 different sun deities with active worship in Sartar. Not a lot of travel needed. Compare that to how much travel is needed to find a different Earth Goddess.

    Speaking of, is there an errata for the Guide to Glorantha?

    Also, I had never realized there was a Light Rune, separate from the Fire/Sky Rune. It's surprising to me that it's a Condition Rune, too -- I would have considered it a (lesser?) Element Rune.

     

    Different Earth goddess in Sartar? There's Ernalda, Esrola, Kero Fin, sometimes Pelora, Maran Gor (who is the twin of Ernalda and sometimes conflated). Go a little further and you start getting Dendara, Pelora-Oria, and not to mention Deezola and Hon-eel. Try to tell me where Ernalda ends and Esrola or Pelora begins. Or where Ernalda is Dendara, and where she is not.

    The most consolidated cult is probably Orlanth, and even he has Humakt and Storm Bull circling around, not to mention Ygg if you go far enough out. And that you can probably blame on Harmast, Arkat, and Alakoring.

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  22. More to the point, the Book of Heortling Mythology was the collection of every Orlanthi myth Greg and I could find and put together as a reference document SO WE COULD SIFT THROUGH IT. Like all of the Unfinished Works, it is not intended to canon or definitive - it is a work in progress, a notebook. It was certainly not intended to be a straightjacket for us and to be honest, I don't even recommend writers use it as a resource (as better resources now exist). 

    Greg was always deeply ambivalent about publishing these unfinished works. I thought it was a good idea to give people access to these notebooks, as I figured they'd use them as a well of ideas, some of which may well get contradicted by finished publications. 

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  23. 14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

    So, how is it then that Elmal features in Orlanthi myths, but Yelmalion has his own and very separate myth cycle?  I simply don't buy it.  If there are tribes still worshipping Elmal, then they aren't worshipping Yelmalio.  2 different gods.  No monomyth. Consider... how many Sun gods are there?  Are they all the same or all different?  Even in Dara Happa there are dozens of deities who are all essentially just the Sun, but are also different deities, or at least different aspects of the deity.

    What we have is a situation where Elmal has the older story and is the older god, but hasn't been updated with the "further adventures" of the younger cult.

    Elmal is clearly the older religion.  As a result it is probably easy for an Elmal worshipper to convert to Yelmalio, but not for a Yelmalio worshipper to convert to Elmal.  We all know that Yelmalions who complete the Hill of Gold successfully get their fire powers back, well, Elmal never lost his, because the Hill of Gold was never his stead, and not his adventure.

    Monomything is shabby and lazy Jeff.

    Yelmalio appears in Orlanth's myths. And Yelmalio also has his own myth cycle - which actually has more interaction with Orlanth and Ernalda. 

    And I don't think Elmal is the oldest of the Lightfore cults. That honor probably goes to Antirius and Kargzant. Or maybe even Yamsur.

    Jeff

    • Like 1
  24. 2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

    He's repeatedly called "the sun god" in the Guide, though, and carries the sun on his back/is the divine sun stallion.

    Come on guys, this is what the Guide actually says:

    On page 37 Elmal is listed among "Minor Gods" as "Elmal the Sun God." 

    On page 152, Elmal is listed in the Storm Pantheon as Elmal the Sun God with the runes of Fire and Truth. That's a typo - should be Light and Truth. There's a few other errors in that chapter about the Runes for specific gods, all of which are corrected in the Cults Book.

    Page 160, Elmal is described as "a horse carrying the Sun on his back." Note that the Sun is not Elmal.

    Page 188, Runegate is described as having a temple to Elmal the Sun God and Hyalor Horsebreaker. That's true.

    Page 236, illustration has Elmal the Sun Stallion pulling Orlanth and Ernalda's chariot. That's an in-Gloranthan piece of art, possibly dating to the First Age.

    Before you all argue with me about this, I wrote all of this. None of that contradicts what all I have been saying (except the typo on page 152). Gloranthans themselves do not make these sorts of Talmudic distinction. Elmal may well remain an artistic feature (the Sun Stallion) - even though his actual cult now identifies him as Yelmalio. The Orlanthi call the Sun Disk "Yelm" but recognise numerous minor sun gods  (Elmal, Yelmalio, Yamsur, Sun Hawk, etc.). Elmal's cult is now largely subsumed into Yelmalio's AND that has been the case since Greg wrote his "Making Gods" essay (which I advise reading carefully).

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  25. 8 hours ago, NewMars said:

    I'll admit, it does seem like the myth is kind of like two different myths that ended up stapled together. But that makes it kind of bizarre that a myth about loyalty to Orlanth and not the emperor would be the core myth of what is now apparently a regional subcult of a god who is about loyalty to the emperor. Also I was wrong, he has the justice spear, not the fire spear. That was my mistake.

    Mind you, the whole Elmal no longer having fire thing becomes strangely hilarious because of a reference in the guide, where it says "He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time."

    Are we sure that Jeff's not just heroquesting a myth here?

    I am pretty sure that is not in the Guide to the Glorantha. Or the Sourcebook. May I ask what you are referring to?

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