Jump to content


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Community Reputation

64 Excellent

About Charles

  • Rank

Profile Information

  • Location


  • RPG Biography
  • Current games
  • Location
  • Blurb
    Bearded :D

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    Maybe the young women that show high potential to become strong in Ernalda and low potential to rock the boat will be kept in the clan and married Esrolian fashion or to Under Husbands to keep her (and her children) in the clan. Perhaps for extraordinary women, the 'independant' Ernalda temples will offer extraordinary bride price or dowries to get them as a priestess.
  2. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    I suggest that you read the whole section on justice again. I know that it is at least 10 years since I last read it through
  3. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    continuing my mental model: Sisters that have never married or have divorced and returned to the clan are full members of the bloodline. Some widows may choose to return to their clan and bloodline. A bloodline will likely encourage an elderly Thane to get his status transferred to another member to ensure continuity. Most bloodlines will have an unusual member or two: The Thane could be a sister in an Esrolian marriage, and her husband get's his membership of the bloodline though her. The first male could get his status from his wife that is a Thane in her own right. A bloodline could find value in a stickpicker or even an outsider and adopt them as a Cottar into the bloodline. Another bloodline breaks up and the bloodline admits a second cousin or two. Each clan will have at least one bloodline with an unusual form or arrangement: A bloodline could be made up of unrelated men that share some other bond, such as a (former) warband. The bloodline will be the primary organisers of marriages for their children, however they will need the approval of the chief/inner ring/outer ring. Marriages are _always_ outside the clan. Much of the contact is organised through the wives who have cousins in their original clans and also in clans that their (original bloodline) 'sisters' have married into. I assume that there is politicking, that the husbands are oblivious of, among the women. This politicking would likely be about personal status and about ensuring that the bonds with their original clan are strengthened so that it is easy to travel home, oh! and their children's status too. An older woman might want to bring in a high status young woman while a younger woman, to improve her status, might want to bring in a lower status young woman. I think that there will always be an absolute ban on unmarried sex within a bloodline. Depending on how close other clans are, there will be a tendency to strongly discourage unmarried sex within the clan. But young adults have strong emotions that may bypass these prohibitions. King of Sartar, revised and annotated edition, page 221 "Bloodlines are responsible for all their members. The group shares in the punishments incurred through the actions of its members. The group also shares in the rewards, such as judgments awarded to them." This is my opinion, which as I have admitted above, is not fully supported by much or even all of the published material.
  4. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    It’s worth digging deeper into my mental model of a bloodline. In a patrilineal clan, the bloodlines are typically based on male descent. Each bloodline contains 5 to 10 adult men, descended from a common grandfather or great grandfather, noted as the Founder. There may be more than one bloodline from the same Founder. Wives and children belong to the bloodline. Typically, each bloodline is organised around a Thane, who may be a priest, a warrior, a high entertainer or the best provider (usually a farmer, but could be a fisher or hunter or herder). There are likely a Carl or 2 and a half-Carl or 2 and several cottars. They live close together, in a stead with 2 to 4 buildings arranged in a defensive form. They live communally, all children brought up together by elders, all livestock managed as a single herd. There may be some associated stick pickers used for labour and odd-jobs, however they are not members of the bloodline. The Thane represents the bloodline on the outer ring of the clan and act as the first among the equals of the rest of the bloodline, they are not the boss, but the most influential. If the clan appoints a second Thane from the bloodline, then unless the two Thanes are unusually close then there’s a strong chance the bloodline will split. If a bloodline loses a Thane, then after a while if they cannot get one of their members appointed as a replacement Thane, then the bloodline will likely breakup. Typical clans only have 20 to 30 Thanes. more later, battery about to die...
  5. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    I have not found the references yet, so can’t completely argue this out. My memory is that in the mid to late second age, Heortling society was completely dominated by the priestly hierarchy. It was a great time to be a stolid farmer or merchant or artisan, you got peace and stability, feuds were quickly resolved, raids were few. But for those inspired by Orlanth Adventurous, there was little that they were allowed to do. Alakoring instituted the Rex rites that ensured that the chief or king dominated the priests. To me, this makes the chief and king a Priest. And in a poor clan, the only nobles that they can afford are the chief/priest of Orlanth and priest of the wyter and his wife, the priestess of Ernalda. I agree that the published scenarios do not agree with me. But that’s fine, there’s lots of room for different stories. With ‘my model’, there’s only one thane in each bloodline, and the bloodline is all concentrated around one or two stead’s. The root document that is worth a re-read is the Report on the Orlanthi in King of Sartar. I think that the rest of my sources comes from memories of threads from Yahoo Groups and it’s predecessor (GeoCities ?), where Greg used to participate. And, of course, I’m cheating 😉 I discussed this topic with Greg (easily 15-20 years ago, maybe more) and remain influenced by those conversations.
  6. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    A chief that is replaced loses his nobility and becomes ‘just’ a thane, though possibly a very rich thane. A king that is replaced (usually) drops in noble rank to just a chief, but could also face replacement as chief in his clan. Note that since the Alakoring renewals at the end of the EWF, chiefs and kings are (mostly) the Priests of Orlanth for their clan and tribe. And, more often than not, their wife is the Priestess of Ernalda, so her position is only as secure as her husband’s. Of course, there are temples to Orlanth and Ernalda that have enough wealth, strength, and reputation to have Priests independent of the clan and tribe structures. And in a tribe, maybe one clan in two can support an additional temple to another god that will get tribal sponsorship. This sponsorship is not necessarily from the tribal king or tribal ring, more likely from the members of the tribe that decide to travel for the holy day ceremonies. However, a temple of Humakt or whatever the tribal ring & king decide is very worthwhile, may get ‘official’ sponsorship. My opinion on bloodlines is that, while I can believe that some are ‘permanent’, particularly those that claim descent from a Hero, most only last a generation or two. Remember that Orlanth is Change, while Ernalda is Stasis, and these virtues are admired and encouraged respectively as good attributes for men and women. Except for the very few, bloodlines are where wealth is held, rather than individuals. In matters of ransoms, compensation, etc., the bloodline pays, not the individual. So trust matters and, in a violent kin based society, that only comes naturally to brothers and first cousins (and not even all first cousins). A wealthy bloodline will be larger as it attracts hangers on (usually second cousins) to the wealth and needs hangers on to work and protect the wealth. Less wealthy bloodlines will lose members to other ‘closely’ related wealthier bloodlines. I believe that in each generation, bloodlines will form around the most effective wealth generators, whether farmers, warriors, merchants or whatever, these generators will become Thanes. And the inheritance effect matters, a wealthy father will have more resources to lead their sons in how to become effective wealth generators. And also to arrange more beneficial marriages, both for sons and daughters. I think that men will always consider their position in a bloodline and where they could fit into related bloodlines. While they won’t change bloodline every year, in their lifetime they may change bloodline once or twice particularly between 25 and 35, when they reach peak (physical) wealth generation. Any man that cannot convince a bloodline to accept him is pretty much doomed to be a stickpicker. And that means their chance of marriage is very low. Huge story material! Here, I am assuming that the majority of Sartar clans are patrilineal. Matrilineal clans will be very, very different, though they will not the Esrolan level of difference as they have to operate in a patrilineal land. lunchbreak over... to be continued, where I’ll try to link back to the original topic of kinship and marriage
  7. Charles

    Kinship and Exogamy in Sartar

    I’ve noticed in this thread, and many others, that there is the assumption that nobility and poverty are inherited and that bloodlines are permanent establishments among the Heortlings. I believe that there is a lot more dynamism in these areas. Admittedly, the Heortlings do have the hereditary Prince of Sartar and, in the Silver Age and First Age, the hereditary King of the Heortlings. Few (if any) are born noble and grow up noble. The sons and daughters of the clan chief or tribal king are the scions of a noble rather than being noble. Of course, with their magical inheritances and the additional resources put into their upbringing, and in particular, advantageous marriages (primarily advantageous for the parents but also for the young adult), it is much easier for them to grow into a noble position. If a son or daughter is lazy or otherwise useless, then they will get quite a bit of protection from their parents, their children some (at least, while young before their noble grandparent dies), and quite possibly their grandchildren none. With their close blood ties, the 3rd and 4th generation could become servants in the household. For that matter, the clan chief and tribal king are not permanent positions. Once a chief is replaced, (s)he is no longer a noble. arriving at work, more later...
  8. Charles

    Tribal Edit Thread for Glorantha Sourcebook

    @Rick Meints , now that it's printed and shipping, please could you release the final PDF? Thanks, Charles
  9. Charles

    Gloranthan Treasure from Gen Con

    wants Can I assume from 'demo' that Camaign Coins plan to sell these as a product?
  10. Charles

    Orlanth's High Holy Day

    Reading Orlanth is Dead (page 46, but non-canonical now), the HHD is 11 weeks after the start of WindStop. As the ceremony builds until 'The moment comes to see the gods and goddesses... Nothing happens... "Orlanth is dead" '.
  11. Charles

    Orlanth's High Holy Day

    Later, on a train... Whether or not this is played out as having both the Orlanthi and the leadership of the opposition fight in the OtherWorld with the home guard and rank and file fighting in the mundane _or_ all fight in the mundane, with varying levels of heightened perception is up to the situation of the game and preferences.
  12. Charles

    Orlanth's High Holy Day

    My feeling is that the mundane and the mythic are always intertwined, and even more so on a High Holy Day. So there’s a mundane attack? It’s mythic and the heroes, disciples, priests, initiates, etc. respond within their trance to resist and (usually) repel the attack. On Orlanth’s High Holy Day, the entire Storm Tribe is, at some quite magical level, involved and will see a more vivid than usual enemy just as if they were part of a this world quest. Depending on the depth of their relationship with Orlanth, initiates etc. see the events as deeper and deeper levels of HeroQuest. And the same goes for the opposition.
  13. Charles

    A mask for Issaries or Donandar

    One indirect rune should be enough. If I remember, the masks were created to strait-jacket Orlanthi worshippers by trying to impose the Lunar/Darra Happan understanding of their rebel gods on the roles of the Orlanthi gods. The Lunars explicitly want them to be adopted by Orlanthi and this allows the maks to be subverted by the powerful/smart/daring/lucky/PCs (strike as appropriate 😉 ), regards, Charles
  14. Charles

    re-incarnating with others' bodies

    If I remember correctly something @Jeff said a while back, there are some consequences to becoming a demigod. The two that I remember is that the aura becomes visible to all, often/usually as a golden skin, and it becomes increasingly difficult for the demigod to lie and, in particular, they are bound to perform any action that they say they will perform.
  15. Charles

    re-incarnating with others' bodies

    And why shouldn’t a really powerful sorcerer become the equivalent of a demigod? Delecti was pretty advanced in the EWF, so likely achieved draconic illumination. Which would mean that he has at least some access to forms of magic other than sorcery.