Charles

And… There’s no reason that these celestial bodies should appear or act identically while in the Underworld. It’s quite possible that each must adapt to be more martial, more inconspicuous, and/or other possibilities during their dangerous journey into an ‘alien’ world.

You are free to host it in GitHub, don’t worry about appearances. Just leave the original copyright statement in and, where and when appropriate, then add your own. Etiquette suggests that minor edits to get it running in the latest Java is not a substantial work, while changing it to be compatible with QuestWorlds would be major and would require additional permissions from Chaosium.

My view is that there are two strains of Chaos in Glorantha. Most of the obvious Chaos is Unholy Trio/Wakboth influenced and therefore delights in destruction and corruption and pain and hate. There is some pre-Wakboth Chaos, which is as likely to create as to destroy, and as likely to love as to hate. I suspect that much of this Chaos is not obvious, or is easily confused with the more ‘evil’ Chaos. My feeling is that Nysalor was not initially ‘evil’ Chaos but many or even most of his followers took the easy route which led them to ‘evil’. My justification for this is that several well known deities (Aldrya, Yelm) seem to completely accept Nysalor. As the fight between Arkat’s followers and armies versus Nysalor’s armies and followers escalators, Nysalor was forced into a more evil role as the alternative was immediate destruction.

This question is addressed in the first book. Peter blows up both the CCTV and the tape recorders during an interview (I'm certain of the tape recorder, less so about the CCTV). Regarding remote components (where the camera is nearby but the recording system is far away), you could argue either way. You could blow the remote components because of an electrical surge, OR say that anything outside the spell radius is unaffected OR, if feeling techy, say there is an optical fibre link so the remote recording system is protected). Decide on your story needs and then go with that.

Why not share publicly? 😄 https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/17o-0FHGCUUI37Vrn88MyMWDkQmY9uaQ1?usp=sharing There are 3 zip files hw_20010827.jar is the java archive, runnable with Java (it's over 20 years, I don't remember how). A .jar file is a Java archive and is openable with programs such as 7-zip hw_20010827_full.jar is as above, and also contains a copy of the source code hw_20010827_src.zip is just the source code

where it was published no longer exists 😞 and I'm not able to upload the files in my reply here I'll send a private message with a temporary link

please go ahead 🙂 I'm sure that I have the sources somewhere, however, it is close to 20 years since I last updated the Java sources for that program.

I've heard a rumour that Lokamayadon is still alive at the end of the Third Age, mourning his hubris in the First Age, and praying to Orlanth (and any other god) for forgiveness and that he might die. But none of the gods will listen to his prayers, and he can't die. He started as a mortal and later became a demi-god (at least). I'm moderately sure that Tarndisi (a dryad in Sartar) is from the First Age or perhaps even pre-Dawn. While Godunya became Emperor of Kralorela in the Third Age, and was supposedly in Dragon Pass in EWF during the the late Second, there's been some hints (I really can't remember where) that he was already ageless then and perhaps was born in the First or even earlier. Godunya is another human that became a demi-god. Ralzakark was alive in the First Age. His antecedents are not clear and may have been born or created already an immortal. If you hunt through the sources, you will likely find many more. I suspect that Cragspider is the most extensively documented mortal now (apparently) immortal. And her motivations seem to be mythic rather than political.

My guess is that the trolls migrated in force to climb from Wonderhome to the surface and many were killed (permanently destroyed) and many were born enroute, so it took ‘several generations’. The route they found by trial and error is not viable for an individual. Only when a troll becomes a Hero, able to keep their individuality and memory together and avoid mortal judgement for more than the usual ‘up to 7 days after death’, can that troll find alternative ways out of the Underworld. These routes will be via paths they Heroquested or via relationships they obtained before their death.

I think that Hell is very subjective. To most humans, the Troll Wonderhome/heaven is a hell. Human Darkness worshippers however might be less intimidated by it and feel that it's pretty OK, if not quite heaven.

What is a pirate? In the Straits of Malacca, piracy goes up when poverty hits the already poor Indonesian fishermen. It's more a question of the opportunities of finding relatively weak victims than piracy as a 'career' choice.

With my God Learner hat on, Belintar taught, tutored, and mentored heroquesting to the point that that the 'pious' could permanently manifest as their deity (great spirit, etc) and reside permanently or long term on the heroplane.

One thing that jumped out at me when reading the Guide to Glorantha was the changing descriptions through the Ages before Time. Relatively undifferentiated in the Green Age, then increasingly differentiated as the ages progress, with descriptions like Darkness Tribe, Darkness People, before Uz and Trolls later. Or more on topic, Stone Tribe, Stone Men, and Mostali. As a God Learner, I’d posit that as part of the increasing differentiation, the ‘species’ retroactively rewrote their history to reinforce their beliefs and justify their defining conflicts.

This division was very much HW/HQ 1.0. I think such distinction has pretty much been discarded. My understanding is that the rules distinction has been discarded. I think that many (most?) Gloranthan people believe that there is a distinction and many Gloranthan otherworld entities believe that there is a distinction (typically the less powerful and less knowledgable). So I would suggest that you can use the distinction in your stories, without having to have special rules. Or, if you don't like any form of this particular distinction, then blithely ignore it.

wow, that's some pretty deep research. 👍

I’ve always felt that ‘Giant’ is too descriptive and general and not specific to a single type of being. In my mind, the giants of Disorder are entirely different to Gonn Ort and his ilk. And they are both different types to the ‘Giants’ of the Praxians, which are their reverent name for their Great Spirits / Gods. I’m a killjoy, I know....

I’d guess an ancient agreement. Brithos is not the original homeland of the Brithini but a place of refuge. If the Brithini break the agreement then they start to age. Or worse (whatever that may be for the Brithini).

The lineage of Earth goddesses (Asrelia -> Ernalda -> Voria, and their dark sisters) does show signs of being one goddess so vast that people approach the various aspects as if they were entirely separate. However, as worshippers undergo their own transitions, they transfer their initiation without penalty from one to the next.

And here it is from Jeff's original FB postings - Belintar took on some of the powers or processes of the OOO.

In one publication, can’t remember which, doesn’t Ralzakark opine that it’s not worth becoming a god because of the restrictions of the Compromise?

The community require several of these roles and performances for their ongoing defence and ongoing growth/maintenance, so it can't be disastrous for the individual chosen / volunteering. Any personal consequences will balance (in the long-term and in the average) as a positive for the individual volunteer. Some of the benefits might be the insights gained into the behaviour of the enemies. Maybe the benefits come from the purification? What if the only way to enter the purification is to have become unclean by performing as an enemy? That's not to say that there are no scapegoats used where the consequences are awful. It's not often discussed, some of Greg's trickster write-ups suggested that the crippled, insane, and other unfortunates with no powerful sponsors were forced into Eurmal and then horribly abused. Most die quickly and unmourned but some are empowered and become a danger to the community. And very rarely a terminal disaster for the community.

Belintar and the Compromise: Heroes that achieve godlike powers are (AFAIK) referred to as Demi-Gods these days, replacing the much abused term Superhero. Belintar and the Red Emperor are quite similar in their manner of maintaining simultaneous godhood and mortal existence (and the last person to refer to this in the court of the Red Emperor disappeared, assumed executed). Other Demi-Gods of the early Hero Wars period include Godunya, Jar-Eel, Cragspider (with her tamed Black Dragon), Harrek (wearing the Polar Bear God skin) and Ralzakark (who may have 'cheated' to get the position by having the exotic chaos feature of multiple bodies).

I feel that we have ended up conflating two entirely different topics. This is leading to a certain level of personal criticism in this topic that feels quite off-putting to me, and which likely drives people away from this topic in particular and maybe from the lists entirely. Is it worth it? It is very unlikely that we will change anyone's mind in this debate. Many of us set our opinions a long time ago. I was recently shocked when I read a very old posting of mine (from more than 30 years ago) to find that I had already then come up with a variant Gloranthan idea that I still hold close today. (And it's not about Mysticism). For what it's worth, I think the two separate conflated topics are: What are the paths to mysticism and how do mystics of those paths act? vs. What are the powers of mystical magic? The various mystical paths, to me anyway, is a much more interesting topic. And how those paths affect the personal behaviour of those that follow them. For example, I am very taken by the idea that the 'devotees' at Old Wind are a mystery cult of Orlanth, who contemplate their breath or the wind to achieve a higher consciousness. Their understanding of the world and their place in it will be entirely unlike that of a dragonnewt close to becoming a dragon. Some aspects of their (the Orlanthis') asceticism may be shared with the Yelmalians that retire (or are 'retired') to the towers but other parts of their approach are different. I have some idea of what a theistic or sorcerous approach to mysticism might look like, but no idea of how a spiritist might approach a mystical goal. The Nysalorean approach, as practised and changed by the Lunars is different yet again. The Kralorelan and the East Isles approaches to mysticism only seems close to each other when looked at from the point of view of Central Genertelan Theists. And most importantly, I remember that Greg spoke several times at conventions of what mysticism meant to him, which went something like (and apologies if I get it very wrong, it was a long time ago). What we can see, hear, touch, feel and think etc. is This World. Everything else is the Other World. Mysticism is that which is neither This World nor the Other World. There's a paradox in there that my mind shies away from. I'm reminded of when I was first taught about mathematical Infinity and the various mathematical gradations of Infinity. After short period of trying to understand, I gave up and just used the formula to make use of the concepts. If we want to debate Illumination and Mysticim, we should talk about how to use it in a game set in Glorantha or in writing a story rather than to justify our own personal spiritual and/or religious beliefs.

PS. Some mortals that ascended to godhood may not have died in the process, which might possibly leave them with some agency. The most plausible candidate is Sedenya, perhaps with the aid of Illumination and Chaos. I have my suspicions that Arkat did not die when he gave up his dark empire to ascend. Another lesser possibility is Pavis. Sartar died as part of the process of lighting his flame, and most other ascensions that I can think of too.

I have a variant view of why and how the gods are dependent on mortals. The god exists as an entity with attributes, areas of interests, patterns of behaviour, but without any agency or even will. A god with no worshippers cannot do anything. When mortals use a god's magic, they temporarily manifest and become the god. When they quest in the god's path, they manifest and become the god for longer periods. To achieve this, they must adhere to the attributes, areas of interests and patterns of behaviour of their god. Over time, their community (clan, tribe, kingdom, empire, continent, whatever's relevent) recognise them as the pre-eminent representative of their god. For my purposes, they have become the god. Divination is a means of tapping into the collective knowledge of a god's worshippers, and this puts strong constraints of what divination can achieve. For a god to have any meaning and influence, they must have worshippers. Without worshippers, they are an empty husk. People that become magically powerful may step away from the path of their god. If they remain dedicated to their god, they become heroes of the god, and their god potentially gets new powers for their worshippers to use. If they step further away from their god and gain sufficient adherents (worshippers), they may quest to become a new god. Sedenya is likely a new god that quested to take up the splintered powers of several dead moons and unite them into a new moon unlike any previous moon. Sartar is a new god that is quite unlike any other god of the Orlanthi. Pavis is another new god.