Charles

Start with the story. Then work out the mechanics. Issaries is a Lightbringer and is among the key figures of the Orlanth and Ernalda pantheon, so I can't see fundamental religious opposition among Orlanth initiates to this (but there may well be jealousy at a personal level). Issaries is a talker, newsbringer, negotiator, and storyteller, so cultists may well know more than usual among non-Orlanth initiates of the powers and hints of Orlanth's secrets. On the other hand, they absolutely do not know the secrets of Orlanth or of Orlanth's cults. So I'd suggest that the character can use Cult Lore at a high penalty. And there should be consequences if they succeed. If they succeed in becoming Orlanth they they pretty much have become an Orlanth cultist afterwards - so that could lead to a lot of interesting stories. And maybe they have also become less of an Issaries cultist but I would suggest that they have not left the Issaries cult, so that could be even more stories.

I think that there's no edge (or no way to get to the edge). Sramak's River becomes exponentially more violent as characters try to sail further out. Depending on who they are and what they intend, they may find a way to sail up into the Sky world or down into the Underworld. This is likely much easier than trying to survive the torrent.

Tatius is one of the highest priests of Yelm, has the backing of a large proportion of traditionalist Solars', and has sufficient lineage to try for the 10 tests, and is blocked by the Lunars. In Sartar, he found an immense source of power that could not be classified as Theistic, Sorcerous, or Spiritist. So he built his New Model Temple Of The Reaching Moon on it. Taking the Throne was his primary goal. Killing Orlanth and dominating the Orlanthis was a significant secondary goal. Using Chaos was just a means. Many years ago, Nick suggested Darth Vader as a model for Tatius. He could no longer breathe Orlanth’s air without mechanical aids, and his shadow follows a different Sun. Do we need Argrath the Villain?

I wouldn’t read too much into that as a guide to personal access to ancestor Heroes, as it’s more about the Heortling respect / worship of ancestors as a group or even as embodied tradition. From some of Greg’s stories, anyone that can recite their (believable) ancestry to a Hero can learn to summon / incarnate / use their magic. However, given the disruptions of each Age, I doubt that few in the greater Dragon Pass region (and I mean almost none) can truly recite their ancestry back to the Dawn or before. But some appear to do so. I think that there’s a bit of a trick to it 😀 I suspect that the belief of both the person and the belief of their community play a part. If an invented ancestry is kept going for a generation or two, then it becomes real. Creating ancestry to Heort or Vingkot is difficult because there are so many that would want to try, and few of these supposed ancestral lines actually match up. So general community belief works against it. Similarly with important recent heroes such as Sartar. So if a player makes it part of their character creation then why not. And there’s another ‘trick’ that has been used (look up Lokamayadon). An allied or bound spirit can become part of a character and that spirit can have the required ancestry 🤣

My bad choice of words. Orlanth Rex has very specific powers that were quested for within time by Alakoring. However, I hope that there is still an Ernalda the Queen cult...

I believe that there is also an Ernalda Rex, which is the norm in Esrolia, exactly as Orlanth Rex is the norm in Sartar. I think that there are a very few clans in Sartar that will usually have an Ernalda Rex rather than Orlanth Rex. Almost always, a new clan chief will initiate to Orlanth (Ernalda) Rex and a new tribal king always (even if already an initiate of another god). That way they become the Chief Priest of all priests in the clan or tribe. In many clans, there will only be one other priest of Ernalda (Orlanth), and that often will be the wife (husband) of the chief. Many or most rural clans cannot afford the expense of two different households of priests. Rich clans and or the clan of the tribal king can support more priests. Of course, that’s my understanding of ‘literary’ Glorantha. For your game, you should choose what suits you and your players.

I had to leave many of my books and games behind when I left London for Singapore, and I think Trollpack is the one I miss the most.

Isn't there something in Trollpack about Arkat having many companions, each seeming to be a replica of Arkat?

My sources for Argrath are King of Sartar and Prince of Sartar. King of Sartar is presented as a collection of documents from different, sometimes conflicting sources, and some of which are noted within the book to have possible dubious basis. While Prince of Sartar (which I loved and spent money to support) petered out way too early [1] and skipped his youth in Prax In many ways we know too much about Argrath 'did', as compared with the other movers and shakers of the Hero Wars. However we understand less of the motivations and why of Argrath as compared with those others. The why of Harrek is that he is a berserk. The why of Ethelrist is self-glorification. The why of the Red Emperor is his empire. The why of Jar-Eel is becoming and being the goddess. Etc., etc.. So we end up arguing about Argrath endlessly. In several ways, I think of Argrath as being like Churchill. Churchill was a complex man: hero - leadership in an existential war, leadership in rebuilding (European) human rights after the war; and villain - racist, complicity in famine bordering on genocide; and incompetent - Galipoli. In many cases on these forums, I've seen people wanting a simple answer to what is Agrath, while much of Glorantha's beauty to me is in its complexity and depth - which means that simple answers are often off the table. [1] and I understand why it was eventually necessary to stop - and hope that it will restart.

I agree that it's good to give players and their characters more agency. Sartar: Kindom of Heroes also allows the characters to take part in a heroquest that is later ascribed to Argrath. Having said that, it also allows one of the characters to become (an) Argrath.

from Kallyr's Dragonrise heroquest I'm unconvinced that Argrath is any more an asshole than other contemporaneous figures. I suspect that the animosity is generated from two things: He succeeded where Kallyr failed. He may have taken credit for some of her achievements, however it's more than possible that some of his fan-bois / sycophants may have tried to credit him without his active encouragement. And Kallyr was not without her own flaws. She had many enemies, some ancestral / political, some from prejudice against a extremely powerful woman worshipper of Orlanth, and some resulting from her own actions / betrayals. Possibly non-canon now, she started out her adult life treating the gods as mere ciphers to gain her powers (do x to achieve power y, with no love, belief, or humility), and then got burned by those gods being reachable entities with some level of agency and personality. And she may even have had a child by Pole-Star only as a path to power, and then abandoned the boy. With his trickster, he killed the gods, including Orlanth. I'm extremely dubious about this part of his 'history'. The section's breathless style seems reminiscent of the wildest conspiracy theories that we see too much of on social media. It indicates that afterwards there's no magic, however in various places in King of Sartar, the researcher indicates that there is still magic around as if it were completely normal. What do you think?

I don't see how the totality of the quote contradicts what I see as a possibility, and my chosen sentences seems to emphasise it as a probability. It certainly is true that the Orlanthi hated Chaos much earlier, with their wars against the PreDark.

Darius, please consider being slightly more accepting in your opinions? One of the greatest strengths of Glorantha for me is that it encompasses so many different and opposing philosophies. I believe this is what brings so many thoughtful people into our community. When one of us persistently and categorically denies the validity of others’ opinions, then my enjoyment of the community is reduced. For a specific counter to a core point of yours, do read Esrolia, Land of 10,000 Goddesses, and look for the shrine to Primal Chaos in the Ezel temple complex and the inscription there, which praises Chaos as the beautiful source of all. I apologise that I don’t have the source to hand, so can’t give a specific reference and quotation. How does that tie in with the overwhelming hatred and fear of Chaos in Glorantha? A thesis of mine is that Chaos was permanently changed, warped and twisted by the ritual of the Unholy Trio and their creation of Wakboth. Prior to that event, Chaos was just another force, another faction, that was more possibly more creative than most other factions, and likely less destructive. The pain, misery, jealousy, anger, madness, and many other negatives of the Unholy Trio were distilled to create the Evil of Wakboth. Wakboth took control of Chaos and moulded it in his own image. BTW, another thesis of mine is that the most holy priests of Orlanth at Old Wind temple and of Ernalda at the Ezel temple complex are Illuminated. Likely, the Orlanth path to Illumination is Draconic. I have no idea what the Ernalda path to Illumination is, except that it long predates Nysalor. These holy people seem generally able to suppress any base impulses to Chaos and the destruction of all. The problem with Illumination seems to be among those that become Illuminated along an ‘easy’ path, without the commitment to transcendence. They are easily diverted to the path of selfishness and solipsism, leading to atrocities and horrors.

I believe that one of the insights of Illumination is that there are no incompatibilities between the 3 major approaches to magic. Illuminants may learn any type of magic and can ignore any restrictions, taboos and rules. And this includes combining the casting and results. Their only limitations are their imaginations and their access to means to learn the alternative approaches to magic.

My feeling is that many rituals and ceremonies were lost during the Greater Darkness. Since the Silver Age, the Orlanthi created and shared new Ceremonies and Rituals that worked or somewhat worked. Which leaves plenty of room for wide variation by region and history. Having said that, I vaguely remember some source with a warning not to try to make the world revolve around one person (i.e. Lokamayadon / Loko Moko) while comparing it with the Foundation Ritual used to create a clan, which does exactly that. I'm assuming that this is around the first Chief and possibly his allied spirit, that could become the Wyter. I believe that there are several different models for obtaining the first Wyter, which also include choosing a local nature spirit, promoting a subsidiary spirit when a clan splits, and just calling out for a volunteer spirit.

I guess that I should clarify my understanding. All paths of Illumination lead to the same set of powers and abilities. But a) most Illuminates do not get all of the powers, and b) the morality and discipline of their path does lead the Illuminant to behave very differently (most of the time, there are always exceptions, even to the exceptions). An ascetic that spent 50 years of their life in poverty and self-abnegation to achieve unity with the All (or with the Void) will not suddenly become a glutton and rapist. While a noble that indulges their desires in Moonson's parties and almost passively becomes an Illuminant through Riddles might well voluntarily take on Chaos features to allow them to indulge even more.

Some of the reactions here (and to some extent the original question) seem to me to be about looking for mechanical rules for situations that inherently require roleplaying out. There are few, if any, magical abilities in Glorantha that are automatically successful when there is some possibility of opposition. If a Chaotic does not want to be detected as such and where they have relevant magic or chaos, then why should Storm Bull be able to detect them automatically? If an Illuminate does not want to be detected by another Illuminate, then why should detection be automatic? There are even stories of ways that non-Illuminates can avoid spirits of reprisal, though the consequences of those measures can be even worse for the initiate. As this is the way Glorantha works and Gloranthans generally know it, then we should look for our own reactions to messy situations where we cannot completely determine the actual truth. Some of us completely believe utter nonsense, such as determining guilt or innocence by whether someone floats or drowns (if they float, they're guilty, of course that's true, it stands to reason). Others of us are very cautious and very reluctant to assign blame without extremely compelling evidence. And most are on a spectrum in between.

If I remember correctly, the HeroQuest Illumination rules indicated that there were many different paths to Illumination but they were all fundamentally the same Illumination. During the Gods War, the Dragons and their kin generally did little to resist Chaos. To me, that indicates that they were very accepting of Chaos.

The Argrath appears to have enough power and smarts to create a whole new power structure to replace that of Sartar. But why bother when he can take up an existing power structure without the lifetime's effort of creating a new one, while tearing down the old one _and_ fighting the Lunar Empire? He may well also have the power and smarts to 'create' a relationship with Sartar... And if that means he has to assume the identity of a dead heir of Sartar, or even manufacture a dead heir of Sartar so he can assume that identity, well I'm certainly not going to make that accusation. No sir, I'd like a long life and a longer afterlife. More realistically, Sartar and his descendants seemed very happy to litter heirs around, acknowledged and unacknowledged, in all sorts of odd and little known places, so a substantial fraction of Sartarites may well be able to find a connection. And that heritage will come out in some of them. If they are in the right place at the right time. And they are desperate enough. And lucky enough. Finally, I do think that the Argrath actually was a descendant of Sartar.

Thanks @Jeff, I had forgotten that scenario.

@Jeff Is there any chance that you can elaborate on this: who on the High Council and why? Perhaps as a separate post?

I reject the premise. There is no reason that a Villain cannot be a Hero and no reason a Hero cannot be a Villain, even ruling out the matter of perspective of which side one takes. The terms are just not binary choices however much we might wish it to be so.

Kallyr is very sad towards the end of her life and has little reason to keep going. Her son is dead, killed during his godquest. A lot of her friends and companions were killed during the failed LBQ. And there is huge resistance to her as a woman in what many reactionary Orlanthi of the hill tribes think is a man's role. At some con, I remember Greg telling us that he'd like to set it up so the decision of whether to resurrect Kallyr be left in the hands of the player characters, who would have a lot of knowledge of why she would not want it. Her remaining closest friends would not want to make that decision.

Minaryth Purple is killed but not eaten (only the heel of one boot is eaten if I recall).

it depends on our definitions of manuscript and ready to go to print. My understanding is that a manuscript is just the text (perhaps copy edited, probably not edited for Chaosium Canon). Ready to print includes art and layout, which are huge tasks in their own right, plus full editing of the manuscript (of course). Other considerations include the publishing pipeline and marketing. Many Gloranthaphiles have limited budget and might not be able to purchase all of several books published in close succession. It may make far better business sense for Chaosium to delay a specialist book that is ready in favour of a book with more general appeal that is 80% done. I have no idea of what is actually going on, so this latter comment is pure speculation with zero basis in fact or rumour.