Charles

I will make some edits to this as I think of further points and, if substantive, I'll note it in the text

I’ve thought for many years about this and still can’t fully articulate it. So I thought that I’d try to start here... When a Gloranthan uses their god’s magic they become their god. Mostly, we see this as the person participating in a fraction of their god. I don’t. I see them as actually becoming their god, with all the consequences that implies for the god. There are a lot of issues with what I’ve just stated. And eventually, I’ll get to (some of) them. First, I see this extending right back to the beginning of creation. The initial forces are very abstract and completely impersonal. After those initial interactions, the Runes arise - almost personality free and intellect free. Then the primal Gods, with a little intellect, choice and personality. Then the Gods that are worshiped, with personalities, choices, intellect and more human stories. What I think is is happening is that the powers, the bundles of powers that we call the gods, and the personalities are entirely separate things, though deeply linked. I think that beings with personalities find ways to invoke those Runes and, by invoking them, embody them. However, it’s not permanent. This is hinted in the mythology of Orlanth, where at different times he has different names. My premise is that each one of those, and many more, is a separate being, a separate personality, that found a way to invoke the powers of Orlanth, and extend them slightly. Orlanth became them and they became Orlanth. Vinga, a female personality, took up the the bundle of powers we call Orlanth and exercised them better than any of her brothers ( cousins, clansmen, tribesmen, nation, whatever ) and became Orlanth. Or Orlanth became Vinga. This continues after Time. The most famous case to my memory is Alakoring, who quite fundamentally changed the nature of Orlanth by making him more of a ruler and less of a first among equals. Less famous but as important and at the same time, Renvald Meldeksbane also changed the nature of Orlanth (but apparently less permanently). How does it work? The key is identification. Some people are better at identifying with their god. It doesn’t matter whether this is because of ancestry, nature, luck, power, necessity, determination, a combination of all of these, or whatever. So what does this theory do for us? Well to me, it starts to explain how the God Learners were able to achieve the damage they did. They would search out devotees and priests of a god and find someone that was powerful and that they could manipulate. This manipulation would not be coercion or corruption, more likely naivety or greed. Coercion or corruption would lessen the identification of their victim with their god. Having found their choice, the God Learners would offer a contest (a heroquest challenge) that they could genuinely lose. And then ‘cheat’ based on the personality or circumstances of their victim. So, for the Goddess Swap, they offered a contest to two different senior priestesses, one in each land (likely, it was many more than just two, because the GLs could, and probably did, lose some). During the contest, the GLs would help their opponent identify more completely with their goddess. And then switch the basis of the contest in a way that their opponent could not resist. Perhaps a personality flaw that was consistent with the identification with the goddess. Or perhaps by posing a dilemma that was completely outside the domain of both the goddess and the priestess. One part of their cheat was likely their RuneQuest Sight that allowed them to precisely identify the runes the opponent could manifest and which Runes they might be more vulnerable to. Maybe the GLs even had magic that helped their victims identify more deeply with their gods and goddesses. And few devotees or priests could resist that... Having won the contest, the GLs could the offer back the lost powers, on the condition that the priestess would relocate to a foreign land. As the priestess was her goddess, the two goddesses would have switched lands. Similarly, this is how Tatius and the Lunars killed Orlanth. I can pick some holes in my theory. First, some people seem to be genuinely powerful without that level of identification. Yes, and that’s OK to be independently powerful. Second, this doesn’t explain spirit worshipers that well (but with the right twist it might), and doesn’t explain sorcery at all. In the meantime, I’ve already written a lot and power is rapidly draining from my iPad - maybe it’s the Doom Guardians coming for another God Learner... -- Becoming the god - well yes and... If defeated (or if unusually successful) then the level of identification matters. Not just personal identification but the communal belief or communal investment (power, treasure, etc) that the identification represents some wider community. Tatius 'killed' Orlanth in a very wide area because he could arrange ritual defeats of many Orlanth priests across a vast area, even if only symbolically by banishing worship from all towns and cities. This could impact Esrolia and Prax because they looked to Sartar and/or Heortland for Orlanthi leadership, even if only unconsciously. At the start I mentioned powers and bundles of powers and then didn't much explain. Initially, the first personality to take up a power might express one Rune. Over time both the original personality and successors refine the expression of those powers and, particularly if successful or widely emulated, they expand the powers into bundles. What gods know - gods know a little of what each of their communal worshipers know (which for a great god can add up to a lot), more of what their initiates know etc. They know this from when their worshipers use their magic. Basically, a Spirit of Retribution is self-imposed. This is also my explanation how the regional and local variations of the gods arise - a god does not always have global knowledge, so what their local or regional worshipers do shapes them. Behind all the accumulated beings that make up the god, there is still a primal something with it's own agenda. This something, let's call it the core god, can be roused to give dreams and visions to those who will become heroes - or dead or insane. It works both ways. As a worshiper uses more of their gods' magic, they take on more and more of the agglomerated aspects of their deity. If they resist this, then they lessen their identification. Until a worshiper becomes illuminated... and then an illuminate can hide knowledge from their god.

In my opinion, it's like using Nazi anatomy books as a guide to surgery. In many experts' view, those books are the best available. However, because of how those diagrams were made, it gives moral qualms and/or reputational fear. I think that most God Learner magic still works for those brave or stupid enough to research and learn it. Some parts of that magic taint users with Chaos / Illumination / both. An even smaller part does not work. Several of our scholars argue that the Doom Guardians are not a Glorantha wide thing, but the fear of the Doom Guardians is...

Huckster however, it is not as strong as I remembered. My recollection of Greg's postings was that it was in YahooGroups or another forum, not in a book.

I believe that there is a short description / reference in Dragon Pass - A Gazeteer of Kerofinela to an entirely fake religion in the 2nd Age. I recall that Greg posted that there were fake religions in Glorantha but have no recollection of where he posted that.

As far as I can work out, Delecti is a demi-god equivalent with at least two manifestations. First, he is a survivor of the EWF. This suggests that he is Illuminated (Dragon variant), and therefore can not only mix chaotic and non-chaotic magics but also Rune/Spirit/Sorcery magics. Second, he is The Avatar of Nontraya, the enemy of Ernalda (caps intended). This means that he is strengthened by some fraction of the worship of Ernalda in, at the very least, the greater Dragon Pass region, and possibly of all Orlanthi worship of Ernalda in Glorantha. He may also be an avatar of Vivamort, though that could be the same as being Nontraya. What this means is that Delecti is as difficult to kill/destroy as Harrek / Agrath / Belintar / Ralzakark / Cragspider / JarEel. Not impossible, but definitely Heroic.

I think that free will is not a Rune, because it was not needed for the creation of Glorantha. In my opinion Freee Will arose as a consequence of the Compromise and the integration of Entropy (Chaos) as Time into the fabric of the Cosmos.

My view is that Kolat and Orlanth are one. My view is that Kolat is a spirit and Orlanth is a god and they are completely different. Possibly it is better to do this as an in-Glorantha viewpoint. A random Orlanthi stickpicker will likely hold the viewpoint that they are completely different, while a disciple at Old Wind might admit that they are one.

I suspect that the priestesses in Esrolia are attempting this with a programme to conflate Arachne Solara and Ernalda.

A HeroQuest as a ritual is a Worship ceremony, in my opinion. Carefully controlled and very low risk, so that only extremely rarely (once in 50 years?) does something unexpected happen. Any ‘real’ HeroQuest is too complicated to be a ritual, but usually will be supported by at least one ritual to open the way to the other side, and often several more to get community support and other magical ‘tools’ or benefits.

A rebel can identify a king as the Evil Emperor and start a this world quest that, if successful, will end up with the rebel killing the king. The king, on the other hand, can recognise the signs of the challenges and break identification with the Evil Emperor by, for example, offering recognition and hospitality to the rebel. Sometimes, of course, the choices available to break identification lead to consequences worse and more immediate than accepting the identification and participating in an enemies' heroquest. When being dragged into another's quest, the involuntary participant, though less prepared, can still attempt to move the narrative onto a different path than the antagonist wanted.

One of my views is that if you travel far enough from home that you don’t recognise the magics of those you visit and they do not recognise yours then you potentially are HeroQuesting. Lots of Gloranthans actively do not want to HeroQuest (see Bituarian Vorosh in Cults of Prax) and have choices available to prevent their journey or actions becoming magical (eg. Orlanthi kings and chiefs know how to avoid being identified as the Evil Emperor). Most actions and events in the mundane world are reflections of events in the God Place. So conversely, it should be possible to invest sufficient ritual and magic in mundane activities that they become a HeroQuest re-enactment of The First HouseCleaning. Sometimes, an enemy or rival will target a pc, whether generically looking for an opponent, or specifically that pc and the signs of rising magic are ignored or misinterpreted so that the pc is dragged unknowing into a role in someone else’s hq. And finally, some places (or places at auspicious times or extremely rarely just completely random) are weak spots, where the barrier to the God Place is low or non existent. If you adventure into Snakepipe Hollow, it may be just an adventure. Until you get to Baroshi or go into the maggot tunnels... The upshot of all of this is that it really is up to the player and gm how much effort they want to invest in making the adventure ‘mythic’.

I’m more I’m more thinking of consequences such as the Household of Death (KoS), which I find disgusting rather than inspiring. At the other end of the scale, the kids accidentally burning the fields as in Six Ages.

Generally agree your criticism of my statement, it was over-broad. A better restatement might be: Orlanthi strongly discourage children from ‘learning’ and performing active magic. Passions are equivalent to talents in our world - some children are better at running, others at rote learning, others at tending animals, others at tending plants, etc.. Possession of charms and other received magics are likely more widespread than among adults.

In my mind, pretty much really all Orlanthi are lay members of all mainstream Orlanthi cults. Or in other words, Orlanthi initiation to any mainstream cult is also pantheon initiation. Orlanthi strongly discourage children doing anything magical. Certainly for rural Orlanthi, children are a significant section of the labourforce and I would suspect similar among the poor and middleclass city Orlanthi. So I don't think there are many children studying under LM (or equivalent) instruction; children of kings and the ulra-rich perhaps.

In my view of the culture, more than ‘all’ Orlanthi (i.e. more than 6 in 7) are pantheon worshippers in addition to their initiation. Which means that likely 99%+ of Orlanthi worship LM at least once a year and likely 85%+ worship LM once per season. Only the rune priests / rune lords / devotees have some degree of exclusivity about their worship, and Orlanth and Ernalda priestesses, as community leaders, often get to lead Issaries or LM worship when there is no initiate available.

I’m moderately sure that prior to the rise of Argrath, there was nearly no literacy at all in the Sartar, Heortland, Esrolia and Prax areas, except that controlled by Lhankor Mhy. Perhaps a little at the Yelmalio temples. Remember that LM is an incredibly jealous god. And most LM priests and scribes have functions that keep them away from writing much of the time. There just isn’t enough free resources that have not been taken by the occupiers. And the libraries are tiny, likely most of us have more books than Jonstown. In an oral society, smart people develop incredible mnemonic functions to record knowledge in a robust way. Plus, of course, a lot of art can transmit knowledge, without it being written.

if I remember correctly, Arkat and his companions became Mistress Race within time

My memory of a posting (by Jeff?, by Greg?) from several years back is that Broyan, as King of the Hendreiki, broke a geas relating to obligations due to the Only Old One. It is quite possible that he was unaware of the geas and possible that, even if he did know, he would have been unable to fulfill it, as the Only Old One is gone. That broken geas made him vulnerable to attacks by darkness entities. Another different version that I recall (which may not be exclusive) is that Broyan acceding to Harreck's demand to loot The City of Wonders (whether or not he had any choice or anyway to stop Harreck) made him an oathbreaker and vulnerable to demons.

recently, I've been thinking about the claims that Ernalda was/is Arachne Solara/Ginna Jar. To me, this smacks of seriously large scale manipulation of the Hero Plane and God Place. Ernaldan temples and priestesses do seem to be far more organised than Orlanth's, with more communications and mutual recognition between them. If they have 'recently' decided to spread the message that Ernalda is actually the goddess Glorantha, then the myriads of of Orlanthi rural clans will incorporate that idea into their Ernaldan rituals. These many small and not so small worship ceremonies will change the God Place. My speculation is that the Visionaries of Enervi foresaw the HeroWars and took action to plant this new truth after some trigger event, such as the Cradle or the rise of the Boat planet. Thoughts?

Do Moon Design and / or Chaosium have the Trademark in both the US and EU (including UK)? Last I remember (a long time ago, so likely has changed), Hasbro still had the trademark in some countries.

Mine 😎

I'm not a fan of the idea that the 7 Mothers performed a Lightbringer Quest. They likely took some inspiration from the LBQ, however many elements, even at the very start are radically different. For example, Teelo was a little girl taken from the streets rather than a raving mortal prophesying the doom of the Cosmos. YGSV

I’m of the opinion that many, or even most, wyters do have a personality, and even have personal likes and dislikes that profoundly affect the clan and its politics. The wyter embodies the clan likes, dislikes, hates and allies. The clan chieftain is also the priest of the wyter, so a clan that selects a disliked person could see a big penalty to its magic. The background for my opinion is that somewhere, there is a discussion of the evils of Lokamayadonism that decries his restructuring of society around himself, while pointing out that the clan Foundation Ritual does exactly that around the first chieftain of a new clan. Separately, Greg commented on some forum about the likely mechanism of Hauberk Jon becoming a wyter. As I recall those comments, powerful people usually have allied spirits (often several). During the Foundation Ritual, one of those spirits can be chosen as the new wyter. After their death, the wyter is recognised as part of the soul of the person, and they exit the re-incarnation cycle to become a minor worshipped deity as the wyter. Note that other choices can be made and I suspect that it is not unusual to choose a powerful local landscape deity, though I suspect this makes the clan less able to evacuate and migrate in case of disaster. regards, Charles

The Lightbringer Clan Ring is quite constrained in who may take each role. To make a stupidly exaggerated example to illustrate the point: if the Orlanth role is taken by a female Ernaldan, then the clan will be substantially weaker in magic, in internal respect and in external politics because the position holder has negative depth and identification in the role. If there is no Issaries worshiper in the clan (relatively common), then the choice gets restricted to the best trader. Etc. for the healer, the loremaster. The Flesh Man role and the Ginna Jar role can be handed out to politically important people, regardless of their religious affiliation (and to a lesser extent the Eurmal role too).