Charles

I'd say that this is true, however a sufficiently skilled HeroQuester (Arkat level skilled, nothing less) could perhaps exploit time travel. The trick would be to foresee an upcoming event as a retread of a historical event that is in the God Place (Sunstop, Battle of Night and Day, Battle of Castle Blue), enter it as a This World Quest and exit in the original event. So pretty much practically impossible because of the unique circumstances of each of these God Place, the difficulty of foreseeing, and the unwitting co-operation of the rivals, opponents, and enemies. This, of course, should be the culmination of a story, not an intermediate step.

Ian, what a wonderful post, thanks! There's so much here that I agree with and little or none that I disagree with, and some I'm not certain. However, when I suggested on the boards of many years ago that Harmast basically made up the Lightbringer's quest out of fragments of many other quests and this re-organised big chunks of the Godplace, Greg did chime in to say that Orlanth did indeed resurrect the sun. I've done some cursory searches for this exchange and so far have not found it. It was likely geocities or even earlier but most likely was Yahoo Groups.

I’m both a God-Learner and an anti-God-Learner. Does that make me Illuminated? I believe that it is part of the beauty of Glorantha that both extremes work and there can be a synthesis that also works. And I still don’t get why we have these outbreaks of ‘this breaks Glorantha for me/you are wrong/this is hateful’ every few years, particularly over Yelm/Elmal/Yelmalio.

Depending on the context, I do. If I’m thinking about the core entities behind the gods, then Orlanth, Umath, Urox are the same. One might think of that entity as the Rune, though I suspect the Rune is another mask. If I’m thinking about the gods from the point of view of their worshippers then those gods are clearly separate entities (accepting that Umath has no (very few) worshippers).

The fun thing about the search for truth in Glorantha is that Truth is dead and gone, seemingly mourned only by Lankhor Mhy. There are many truths, and neighbours (and other enemies 😜 ) will fight to the death to ensure that their truth will prevail over those other foul lies. I’m relaxed about the contradictory details, large and small, there are Gloranthans that believe each version and can prove those that they care about. And that’s what makes Glorantha so wonderful for me. Orlanth has different names, different powers and different worship practices around Glorantha. Depending on the needs of the time and location, worshippers prove that they are different or prove that they are the same. And yet, we Gloranthaphiles never argue this, while every few years, there’s schisms over Yelmalio / Yelm / Elmal etc.

I think that it the 7M goddess quest taps the same underlying truth as the lightbringer quest without directly re-using any of the actual ritual elements. My guess is that it’s something like ‘if you can assemble and bind a team into something like a clan, at least some of whom will risk complete and permanent destruction in proofs of their rights to pass, then there is the possibility of bringing back a world renewing change’

My understanding is that Existence in Glorantha since Time is a balancing act between Stasis and Chaos. Too much Stasis leads to ossification, everything stops. Too much Chaos leads to complete degeneration, everything separated, everything flies apart and there is ultimately nothing. Existence continues and will continue for many Cycles (or Ages) - something like 13 to the power of 13 Ages according to one prophecy that I half recall. The source of Chaos and newness in Glorantha is the Chaosium. I even suspect that the new ideas that arise in each Age originated in the Chaosium - it’s not just the source of Chaotic entities, it’s also the source of small new Creation. I’m not sure of the source of Stasis, though I understand that the Dwarves and Mostali are its agents. I’m not sure if it’s a thing, or a joke, or both: their operations centre is the Lead Zeppelin that they placed at the Zenith in the Sky.

The rise of the Boat Planet is stated (in Gathering Thunder, if I recall) to be the result of multiple quests, across multiple cultures. Likely Harreck, Hoom Jhis, the Cradle, and many more, contributed.

I agree that these were always part of Chaos, but more as a side-effect of other things. After Wakboth took charge, they became the purpose.

There is some suggestion that the Unholy Trio did something that substantially changed some aspects of Chaos. ‘Before’ their ritual, Chaos was Creation and Entropy; Construction and Destruction in equal measures. Chaos did these things because that was their purpose, their quality of existence. ‘Afterwards’, Chaos was led, herded, and bullied by Evil, the Devil, something that chose corruption, pain, horror, and destruction as their goal, not just as a means or even byproduct. And, it seems, that the Compromise locked this behaviour into Glorantha.

Many of the great gods and great spirits are called giants by their worshippers, in particular the Animal Nomads of Prax. It is possible that the war was between one of these groups of ‘giants’ and the dragons.

Reading through this and elsewhere, I’m struck by two things: how many of us had deeply personal experiences with Greg; and how he remembered each of us and quite a bit about us and who we knew.

My condolences to his family, though what words will make a difference? Greg gave me several of the most important moments of my life. When he asked me to work with him on one of my little corners of Glorantha, when he published the result as a joint article; when I asked him to tell a story from memory and then he thanked me because it worked better than the story he had just read aloud; when I received a authoring credit with him (let’s be honest, mine was a tiny tertiary credit). The hours (days? weeks?) reading his creation of Glorantha. The vast amount of time online reading others’ interpretation of his vision and arguing the details. And the friends that I made around the world due to him bringing us together. Greg, your going leaves a big hole in my world. Safe Travels.

Generally the sourcebook and the guide override earlier sources. Of course, it’s not impossible there’s a mistake...

I don’t believe that the Grandmothers’ behaviour in Esrolia really has anything to do with Imarja. Ernalda is known for being manipulative. In fact, like Orlanth’s violence, it is not only admired but celebrated among the Orlanthi (Esrolia is still part of Orlanthi culture, even though they reject Orlanth as a ruler). I’ll have to look up the events and dates in E:LoTTG (later) for the exemplar of this. It was only when a Grandmother took her manipulations to such extremes that she started destroying the land, that the Priestesses and Ernalda took action to stop her. Not because of her treatment of her relatives but because she burned the crops and fields and thus rejected an even more core value of Ernalda.

Continuing from where this diverged in another topic

I think the discussion has moved so far, it should go into a new topic 😀

Cannot? I’m not sure that I can agree. My idea is that the role of a priest is to lead religious ceremonies and rituals of (hopefully) large numbers of worshippers, where the number of worshippers is the key determinant of success. Other factors affect the success but are less important than that number. So a sociable but magically subpar priest that attracts the whole community will be more effective than a strong magician that can only get a few to attend. OK, I get that I’m making an extreme example. And communities will usually balance their concerns and choose someone that is effective in both of these dimensions (and likely many more dimensions) to be their priest. In Orlanthi religion, only a very few worship only their initiated deity and never any other. ‘Everyone’ sacrifices to and worships Ernalda and Orlanth regularly, even if initiated to, say, Lankhor Mhy, and during the Sacred Time ceremonies and rituals, there is worship and sacrifice to all the major deities and everyone takes part to ensure the world continues. Of course, there are the unresheathed Humakti, “but anyway they’re already dead”, and maybe one or two disciples (using a Hero Wars term) or other weirdos who do not take part, “but they are our weirdos”. So most clan level priests will find themselves leading important events where there is no initiate of the relevant deity present. And this is completely normal and usual.

Agreed. I'm home now and can check maps Greenstone is a temple on Malani lands. Having said that, there is the possibility that the Malaini are the clients of the temple rather than the other way around So basically no truly independent temple with a large priesthood in Sartar...

Do you mean the Clearwine and the Colymar? I immediately eliminated that, but didn’t remember or have the time to look up Greenstone. On the other hand, I’m moderately sure that Old Wind is independent

This looks like RuneQuest to me, hence my comment. Apologies if we have crossed wires. In many cases, I feel that the linkage is the other way around than RuneQuest or HeroQuest model: it is the appointment to a community supported position that allows a person to develop their magic. BTW, I’m not a huge fan of the idea of ‘independent’ temple complexes scattered all over Sartar with large priesthoods (that is independent of a clan or a tribe). There are a very few, and most (all?) of those are well known from the literature, largely listed in S:KoH (starting from page 113). Basically, there’s Lankhor Mhy and Chalana Arroy in Jonstown, Ernalda/Greenstone, Orlanth/Old Wind and (possibly) Ernalda and Orlanth in Boldhome. All the other holy places in Sartar are attached to clans or tribes and few of them are temples with a permanent priesthood.

Most people only have magic for livelihoods, so it’s less difficult to enslave them. Confiscation and destruction of items, separation from children (hostages), destruction of shrines and temples, ritual cutting of tattoos and patterned scars, prevention of worship, laming, blinding, amputations and execution of troublemakers, the aged and the disabled. Drugging may be used for a while to stop worship and magical renewal (but not for too long as it is relatively high cost). Slave bracelets will only be used on extremely valuable prisoners and hostages.

Some myths should be creepy. And the Orlanthi are often (usually?) an extremely violent people, so it should be no surprise that some of their myths show that. What we have not seen much of are the myths of manipulative Ernalda. The Making of the Storm Tribe hints at it. Further hints are given in the history of Esrolia, where the manipulations of the Grandmothers become so extreme that they hurt the land and it’s capacity to grow. Only at this point does the goddess withdraw her blessings.

The answers depend on whether you follow the social and magical models implied from the literature or the models presented in RuneQuest. In my opinion, the models in RuneQuest are there for gaming purposes first and matching the literary model second. And RuneQuest is better for that. To me (a literary Gloranthaphile rather than a gamer), an Orlanthi priest is an appointed position. A godi is a vocational position. Often a godi will be appointed priest. And often not, as it’s the social connections that matter. A priest is fully supported by their congregation and therefore the ‘mad’ godi that tells them uncomfortable things will not be supported over the popular schmoozer who can just manage the ceremonies without stumbling. Of course, when it matters, the social winds will blow another way. And if you look in our world at the established Christian churches, a substantial minority of priests are in their positions not for the religious worship of God but to take advantage of their social position. And their elevation to bishop is not necessarily related to their theological ability or religious fervour but to other factors.

yes to all of these options. Going further a woman can initiate to Dar, without specifying Vinga at all opinions, of course