Charles

my understanding / feeling / opinion is that in a poor clan, there is only one priest and one priestess. The clan chieftain is the priest of Orlanth. His wife, more often than not, is the priestess of Ernalda, particularly if the clan can't afford to support 2 separate families/households as nobles. In richer clans, they may well be able to afford 2, 3 or even more priests and priestesses and then other arrangements become practical. The chieftain has to initiate to a a god that grants rulership and that will be usually be Dar (Orlanth), including many women chieftains; occasionally Orendana (Ernalda); with a fraction of a fraction worshiping Elmal. I suspect that other husbands of Ernalda (Heler, Argan Argar) may be able to find religious means to rulership, but this would be a story arc rather than a rule/well known path. Most of the gods of the Orlanthi are not jealous, so initiating to another friendly deity of the pantheon is a non issue. During the Lunar occupation of Sartar, many clans appointed chieftains (and even kings of tribes) that did not primarily worship Orlanth. But all of them would have to initiate to a deity that grants rulership. And if pressed, they could truthfully say "I worship Dar not Orlanth" without risking divine retribution as religiously, Dar is Orlanth.

I checked my Chaosium account and my order (via Kickstarter) is not listed, so I can’t download from there. I do understand that uploading all of our various KickStarter orders could be a substantial administrative task for Chaosium, so not sure what the best approach is...

Maybe the young women that show high potential to become strong in Ernalda and low potential to rock the boat will be kept in the clan and married Esrolian fashion or to Under Husbands to keep her (and her children) in the clan. Perhaps for extraordinary women, the 'independant' Ernalda temples will offer extraordinary bride price or dowries to get them as a priestess.

I suggest that you read the whole section on justice again. I know that it is at least 10 years since I last read it through

continuing my mental model: Sisters that have never married or have divorced and returned to the clan are full members of the bloodline. Some widows may choose to return to their clan and bloodline. A bloodline will likely encourage an elderly Thane to get his status transferred to another member to ensure continuity. Most bloodlines will have an unusual member or two: The Thane could be a sister in an Esrolian marriage, and her husband get's his membership of the bloodline though her. The first male could get his status from his wife that is a Thane in her own right. A bloodline could find value in a stickpicker or even an outsider and adopt them as a Cottar into the bloodline. Another bloodline breaks up and the bloodline admits a second cousin or two. Each clan will have at least one bloodline with an unusual form or arrangement: A bloodline could be made up of unrelated men that share some other bond, such as a (former) warband. The bloodline will be the primary organisers of marriages for their children, however they will need the approval of the chief/inner ring/outer ring. Marriages are _always_ outside the clan. Much of the contact is organised through the wives who have cousins in their original clans and also in clans that their (original bloodline) 'sisters' have married into. I assume that there is politicking, that the husbands are oblivious of, among the women. This politicking would likely be about personal status and about ensuring that the bonds with their original clan are strengthened so that it is easy to travel home, oh! and their children's status too. An older woman might want to bring in a high status young woman while a younger woman, to improve her status, might want to bring in a lower status young woman. I think that there will always be an absolute ban on unmarried sex within a bloodline. Depending on how close other clans are, there will be a tendency to strongly discourage unmarried sex within the clan. But young adults have strong emotions that may bypass these prohibitions. King of Sartar, revised and annotated edition, page 221 "Bloodlines are responsible for all their members. The group shares in the punishments incurred through the actions of its members. The group also shares in the rewards, such as judgments awarded to them." This is my opinion, which as I have admitted above, is not fully supported by much or even all of the published material.

It’s worth digging deeper into my mental model of a bloodline. In a patrilineal clan, the bloodlines are typically based on male descent. Each bloodline contains 5 to 10 adult men, descended from a common grandfather or great grandfather, noted as the Founder. There may be more than one bloodline from the same Founder. Wives and children belong to the bloodline. Typically, each bloodline is organised around a Thane, who may be a priest, a warrior, a high entertainer or the best provider (usually a farmer, but could be a fisher or hunter or herder). There are likely a Carl or 2 and a half-Carl or 2 and several cottars. They live close together, in a stead with 2 to 4 buildings arranged in a defensive form. They live communally, all children brought up together by elders, all livestock managed as a single herd. There may be some associated stick pickers used for labour and odd-jobs, however they are not members of the bloodline. The Thane represents the bloodline on the outer ring of the clan and act as the first among the equals of the rest of the bloodline, they are not the boss, but the most influential. If the clan appoints a second Thane from the bloodline, then unless the two Thanes are unusually close then there’s a strong chance the bloodline will split. If a bloodline loses a Thane, then after a while if they cannot get one of their members appointed as a replacement Thane, then the bloodline will likely breakup. Typical clans only have 20 to 30 Thanes. more later, battery about to die...

I have not found the references yet, so can’t completely argue this out. My memory is that in the mid to late second age, Heortling society was completely dominated by the priestly hierarchy. It was a great time to be a stolid farmer or merchant or artisan, you got peace and stability, feuds were quickly resolved, raids were few. But for those inspired by Orlanth Adventurous, there was little that they were allowed to do. Alakoring instituted the Rex rites that ensured that the chief or king dominated the priests. To me, this makes the chief and king a Priest. And in a poor clan, the only nobles that they can afford are the chief/priest of Orlanth and priest of the wyter and his wife, the priestess of Ernalda. I agree that the published scenarios do not agree with me. But that’s fine, there’s lots of room for different stories. With ‘my model’, there’s only one thane in each bloodline, and the bloodline is all concentrated around one or two stead’s. The root document that is worth a re-read is the Report on the Orlanthi in King of Sartar. I think that the rest of my sources comes from memories of threads from Yahoo Groups and it’s predecessor (GeoCities ?), where Greg used to participate. And, of course, I’m cheating 😉 I discussed this topic with Greg (easily 15-20 years ago, maybe more) and remain influenced by those conversations.

A chief that is replaced loses his nobility and becomes ‘just’ a thane, though possibly a very rich thane. A king that is replaced (usually) drops in noble rank to just a chief, but could also face replacement as chief in his clan. Note that since the Alakoring renewals at the end of the EWF, chiefs and kings are (mostly) the Priests of Orlanth for their clan and tribe. And, more often than not, their wife is the Priestess of Ernalda, so her position is only as secure as her husband’s. Of course, there are temples to Orlanth and Ernalda that have enough wealth, strength, and reputation to have Priests independent of the clan and tribe structures. And in a tribe, maybe one clan in two can support an additional temple to another god that will get tribal sponsorship. This sponsorship is not necessarily from the tribal king or tribal ring, more likely from the members of the tribe that decide to travel for the holy day ceremonies. However, a temple of Humakt or whatever the tribal ring & king decide is very worthwhile, may get ‘official’ sponsorship. My opinion on bloodlines is that, while I can believe that some are ‘permanent’, particularly those that claim descent from a Hero, most only last a generation or two. Remember that Orlanth is Change, while Ernalda is Stasis, and these virtues are admired and encouraged respectively as good attributes for men and women. Except for the very few, bloodlines are where wealth is held, rather than individuals. In matters of ransoms, compensation, etc., the bloodline pays, not the individual. So trust matters and, in a violent kin based society, that only comes naturally to brothers and first cousins (and not even all first cousins). A wealthy bloodline will be larger as it attracts hangers on (usually second cousins) to the wealth and needs hangers on to work and protect the wealth. Less wealthy bloodlines will lose members to other ‘closely’ related wealthier bloodlines. I believe that in each generation, bloodlines will form around the most effective wealth generators, whether farmers, warriors, merchants or whatever, these generators will become Thanes. And the inheritance effect matters, a wealthy father will have more resources to lead their sons in how to become effective wealth generators. And also to arrange more beneficial marriages, both for sons and daughters. I think that men will always consider their position in a bloodline and where they could fit into related bloodlines. While they won’t change bloodline every year, in their lifetime they may change bloodline once or twice particularly between 25 and 35, when they reach peak (physical) wealth generation. Any man that cannot convince a bloodline to accept him is pretty much doomed to be a stickpicker. And that means their chance of marriage is very low. Huge story material! Here, I am assuming that the majority of Sartar clans are patrilineal. Matrilineal clans will be very, very different, though they will not the Esrolan level of difference as they have to operate in a patrilineal land. lunchbreak over... to be continued, where I’ll try to link back to the original topic of kinship and marriage

I’ve noticed in this thread, and many others, that there is the assumption that nobility and poverty are inherited and that bloodlines are permanent establishments among the Heortlings. I believe that there is a lot more dynamism in these areas. Admittedly, the Heortlings do have the hereditary Prince of Sartar and, in the Silver Age and First Age, the hereditary King of the Heortlings. Few (if any) are born noble and grow up noble. The sons and daughters of the clan chief or tribal king are the scions of a noble rather than being noble. Of course, with their magical inheritances and the additional resources put into their upbringing, and in particular, advantageous marriages (primarily advantageous for the parents but also for the young adult), it is much easier for them to grow into a noble position. If a son or daughter is lazy or otherwise useless, then they will get quite a bit of protection from their parents, their children some (at least, while young before their noble grandparent dies), and quite possibly their grandchildren none. With their close blood ties, the 3rd and 4th generation could become servants in the household. For that matter, the clan chief and tribal king are not permanent positions. Once a chief is replaced, (s)he is no longer a noble. arriving at work, more later...

@Rick Meints , now that it's printed and shipping, please could you release the final PDF? Thanks, Charles

wants Can I assume from 'demo' that Camaign Coins plan to sell these as a product?

Reading Orlanth is Dead (page 46, but non-canonical now), the HHD is 11 weeks after the start of WindStop. As the ceremony builds until 'The moment comes to see the gods and goddesses... Nothing happens... "Orlanth is dead" '.

Later, on a train... Whether or not this is played out as having both the Orlanthi and the leadership of the opposition fight in the OtherWorld with the home guard and rank and file fighting in the mundane _or_ all fight in the mundane, with varying levels of heightened perception is up to the situation of the game and preferences.

My feeling is that the mundane and the mythic are always intertwined, and even more so on a High Holy Day. So there’s a mundane attack? It’s mythic and the heroes, disciples, priests, initiates, etc. respond within their trance to resist and (usually) repel the attack. On Orlanth’s High Holy Day, the entire Storm Tribe is, at some quite magical level, involved and will see a more vivid than usual enemy just as if they were part of a this world quest. Depending on the depth of their relationship with Orlanth, initiates etc. see the events as deeper and deeper levels of HeroQuest. And the same goes for the opposition.

One indirect rune should be enough. If I remember, the masks were created to strait-jacket Orlanthi worshippers by trying to impose the Lunar/Darra Happan understanding of their rebel gods on the roles of the Orlanthi gods. The Lunars explicitly want them to be adopted by Orlanthi and this allows the maks to be subverted by the powerful/smart/daring/lucky/PCs (strike as appropriate 😉 ), regards, Charles

If I remember correctly something @Jeff said a while back, there are some consequences to becoming a demigod. The two that I remember is that the aura becomes visible to all, often/usually as a golden skin, and it becomes increasingly difficult for the demigod to lie and, in particular, they are bound to perform any action that they say they will perform.

And why shouldn’t a really powerful sorcerer become the equivalent of a demigod? Delecti was pretty advanced in the EWF, so likely achieved draconic illumination. Which would mean that he has at least some access to forms of magic other than sorcery.

Delecti’s roles are a completely different topic that is under-explored in my opinion. Delecti has taken the role of Nontraya, but whether this is deliberate or a consequence of his choices is uncertain to me. When I looked at running the campaign of Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, it struck me that the women would likely continuously agitate for action against Nontraya/Delecti and this might be a partial explanation for the relative isolation of the Colymar from the rest of Sartar.

Interesting idea. In The Sartar Companion, in the big quest with masks (on a train, no books), the heroes are stuck in a this world quest for long after, until a holy man ritually closes it off. Similarly in Harmastsaga, Harmast is stuck in his initiation quest for long after it should have finished. So the mechanism could be to deliberately make one’s whole existence a HeroQuest, which is pretty much another definition of a demigod. However this is different in my opinion, in that in heroforming, the hero is only in control of a small part of the unified being, the heroformer is in the lead.

None of them are the same as the other examples but there is clearly (to me anyway) some structural similarity, some core principle that they hook onto. What I'm really interested is whether anyone is aware of any further entities beyond Belintar, the Red Emperor, and Great Sister?

In another topic: What demi-gods do this? - Delecti re-incarnates into corpses Are there any more?

I am skeptical about mapping the Seven Mothers Quest too closely to the LBQ. But I do think that they both tap into an underlying structure that works: six meet (*1); go to the underworld; attract a mysterious seventh to be their wyter (*2); and collectively achieve much more than the sum of their parts. But otherwise their membership, methods and goals are quite different. However, Moonson and Great Sister both appear to tap into a similar structure as Belintar, where the demi-god reincarnates using the body of a powerful worshiper; uses it up and then reincarnates again. No-one would suggest that they are identical. *1 - six to seven seems to be an ideal; LBQs have been performed since Time with other numbers of questers *2 - Ernalda worshipers hint that it was Ernalda that set the whole LBQ up; and then joined as the mysterious Ginna Jar; and then by some sleight of hand became Arachne Solara. Personally, I take that last transition as evidence that some of the priestesses indulge too much in recreational drugs that are sometimes also used for worship and prophecy

The Lunar myths are 'in-Glorantha'. So be aware that they could be part propaganda. Or even largely propaganda with core truths.

Several of mine were suggestions rather than here's something wrong.

From Storm Tribe, so not necessarily canon. Page 42: Mallia became evil and part or her, now named Pranjala, pulled away and joined Chalana Arroy.