Patrick

Also, it occurs to me that Ernalda is not the Mountain Goddess.

She is the Earth, but she isn’t Kero Fin. Not Stormwalm mountain. Let alone Vestkarthan.

She is the earth in the valley, that welcomes the river, and gently guides it through canals into the fields...

She cares for peace, not (visible) greatness.

And yet again, to quote on the Tao Tö King:

 « Because she rivals with no-one, no-one can rival with her... »

This is really a very interesting thread, and I would like to thank you all for the good ideas.

We see a problem, and we try to fix it.

Aren’t we already on Ernalda’s path, by doing so? and indeed learning, stumbling, trying to find a way - another way...

Please allow me, however, to question the problem itself - as expressed earlier, that teaching wouldn’t make for good stories, or good gaming...

Yes, certainly, there is room for learning myths of Ernalda.

From her youth, playing in Asrelia’s Cave, and choosing or discovering who she truly is.

Ernalda combined Earth (of which she became the source) with Harmony and Life.

This is something that defines her - sets her apart from Maran, but also springs the qualities she will then constantly embody.

Hence the need for youth myths - the ones that will educate and shape (most of) the young girls in Orlanthi community.

As much as she learnt these Runes, and ways, she teaches them.

« The perfect Sages of Antiquity were so fine, so subtle, so deep and so universal that they couldn’t be known.

Unable to know them, we strive at representing them:

they were prudent like someone who passes a ford in winter;

hesitant, like one who fears their neighbours;

reserved as a guest;

mobile, like ice about to melt; 

concentrated like the block of raw wood;

extended as the valley;

confused as muddy water.

Who knows how, through rest, to progressively pass from troubled to clear, and through movement, from calm to active?

Whoever preserves in oneself such an experience, doesn’t desire to be full.

Not being full, it can withstand use, and renew. »

(somewhat clumsy attempt at translating Tao Tö King XV, an Iron-age text - how Ernaldan is that, though?)
 

Now, her later adventures have to do with communities (she’s a Queen, after all), finding and binding new elements in her communities:

- tools and resources (the dances, the loom...)

- people/gods to recruit and ally

Here, I find interesting that to help us express these stories « actively », we could revert the « active » myths of the Orlanthi warrior, into « passive » ones.

And I just thought about the question of Gods as Tools - which may be thought of as manipulation, but is also practised in all Orlanthi myths.

In the arming of Orlanth, his Sword can be called Humakt. And this, in turns, gives room for a Humakti HeroQuester to join the quest, even though it’s all about « Orlanth alone fighting in the wild ». Because Humakt IS a Sword, Mahome IS a fire, etc.

So we could certainly think of Orlanth as an « active » deity who skilfully swirls his weapon at the enemy, or equally as a « passive » deity who doesn’t act but changes others. He teaches Humakt how to kill Yelm. He’s the god of Change, isn’t he?

And we could certainly see Ernalda’s wits not as manipulative (in a social sense), but as crafts and skills. She trains Orlanth to fight Yelm, or she moves Orlanth to do that (like the warrior moves his weapon).

In both cases, we probably lose some of her spirituality.

Because she is indeed « universal » and « extended as the valley ».

She is not manipulating Gods against their best interest.

She tries to nudge them out of the dramatic endings of the Gods’ War...

In fact, to emphasize the dramatic value of this course of action, let’s think this in terms of « gamification »; not for us to play, but for us to teach through games, as Ernalda does.

Doesn’t she, by playing the game of seduction, make it a desireable outcome to do what must be done?

She « gamifies » quests, so that her champions will do what’s right.

Here, also, it may serve us to look for failure myths, to contrast them.

And we can find one in the Iliad: Cassandra is Kev, failing to show clearly the future to mortals.

Where Kev succeeds her quest, the community will act appropriately; where she fails, it won’t.

Is Kev manipulating them? No, she tells the truth, and only the truth.

But the story of Cassandra tells us that telling the Truth is not enough.

That there is a Quest to make it heard.

Some people call it: teaching...

17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I appreciate the elemental themes that instruments in Glorantha have, but the purpose of the drums in a music band is to dictate rhythm, and little dictates life's rhythm as much as the agricultural cycle, hence my choice of Esrola. 

Also I was dicking around.

Pretty relevant to keep drums as Darkness, though.

Dark season is the beat of the year.

As mentioned above, that’s the reason/season why you need Prudence and planning.

Ernalda (or Esrola) doesn’t play the drums, but creates a wave around them.

A silence, that is part of the tune.

« She is not dead, she is sleeping... »

any news on the launch?

On 03/05/2016 at 6:17 AM, Jeff said:

Elmal is just treated as another variant of Yelm or Yelmalio by most Ernalda temples. Which is kind of right.

Watcha, I must say I am surprised.

Obviously they share the Sky Rune, but... I always thought they were different (moving) celestial bodies, Yelmalio being Antirius/the Little Sun/Kargzant and Yelm the Sun/Yu-Kargzant.

Hints please, @Jeff 🙏🏻

Glad we start talking about Sheng on a Pentan thread ;-)

does he have followers as of, say, 1621?

i would say yes, for mainly three reasons:

1/ MGF:

what a pity it would be to discard such a huge potential for stories

2/ Cultural imprint:

yes, he was trapped and unreachable for a looong time. Yet Arkat has been out of reach for far longer, and still has followers. Why wouldn’t Sheng?

3/ Magics:

the teachings survive the teacher (again, Arkat’s school of sorcery is a good example). His followers were indeed hunted down, just like Godlearners did their best to suppress all Arkatism - not with full success...

On 07/01/2018 at 10:03 AM, Joerg said:

Arkat himself never was an adept sorcerer and only had the Man-of-All mastery of sorcery. That is a significant cut above other non-zzaburi Malkioni grasp of sorcery, but at best comparable to apprentice-level sorcery, so yes, here might be a loophole for shamans to get manipulation skills. But then their "magical organ" has already been altered and made mutable through Arkati illumination, much like the learning of Lunar magic manipulation technique requires illumination, too.

Arkat was such a poor practitioner of sorcery - a mere apprentice - that he created new spells (see Trollgods) and founded a school of sorcery still fondly practised by the families of Guhan...

One may argue he combined learning sorcery & rune cult magics only thanks to illumination?

That leads us back to Pent... where there once was this guy of little influence, named Sheng Seleris.

Oh, he only practised mysticism in Kralorela for a hundred years, so his draconic illimination is still a long way from wisdom, for sure.

But he also managed to make himself a local reputation dealing with spirits - the embodiment of the Spirit rune (so says the Guide IIRC).

So  where would he stand:

- mystic?

- shaman?

- rune-level hero?

- all of the above?

... and what magics would his followers use today?

I tend to think the question is fruitful because, around the campfires, while shamans chant and priests burn horse carcasses, some oracles covered in ashes whisper of the return of the once and future King of the nomads...

« Attune to your bow and inner flame, young man. The time is near for limitless deeds under the Sky. The time is near for the Avenger and Conquerer. The time is near for Sheng Seleris to be born again, from hells deeper than your soul would dare looking into... »

On 06/08/2017 at 2:46 PM, Joerg said:

 

I wonder how much of the great squares really is open surface, and how much of it are permanent market stalls (though not permanently operated). Do the Nochet market traders migrate between squares for big market days, or are they mostly enfranchised in one of the markets?

Just a thought...

Even in the XVIIIth century Venice, great squares were (partly) used for farming/horticulture - they are called "campo" for a reason.

Wouldn't it make perfect sense in Esrolia, to dedicate some urban spaces (squared-shaped as the Earth) to agricultural activities?

The blessing of the 10,000 Goddesses is ever-pervasive... Bless them all for their bounty!

:-)

On 06/05/2017 at 5:27 PM, Joerg said:

Would it be just to enter the hall with a bag of silver worth someone's weregeld, then kill that person and toss the man-price next to the corpse?

Well, up to the circumstances and GM's taste.

A few additional things come into play here, eg:

- breach of hospitality: yes, that's against THAT law, too. The character may be admired for his recklessness by some, yet despised for desecrating a basic principle...

- offended clan's reaction: doing so is pretty much a slap in the face of all the clan, including a challenge to its duty of "Protection". So the killer may not be treated "simply" as a killer, but also a threat to the Ancestors' goodwill

- "no one can make you do anything", applies to weregild acceptance too: so the victim's clan may always prefer to send the money back and start a feud. Or even keep the silver, "taken from the enemy while he was fleeing the scene" ;-)

Options, out of endless possibilities...

On 29/04/2017 at 7:00 PM, Joerg said:

 

King Oronin clearly was of the water tribe. However, he was slain by the DediZoraRu, and why should a Waertagi or Kachasti overcome a Waertagi king and replace it with something more evil?

 

Ah, but all worlds are filled with such stories of doom. Impatient heirs kill their fathers, distant relatives improve their succession ranking by "removing" family competitors, angry factions foment palace revolutions...

Eternal dynasties never last forever ;-)

About the dreariness of land: well, don't forget that Brithini Zzaburi practice tapping. Maybe infrequently, but they live forever. And typically stay in the same lands.

There is something rotten in Brithos...

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Good thing we don't have any Glorantha gnus.

ggnus' not gloranthan ;-)

"The story became a legend, the legend became a myth."

It is not entirely unlikely that skalds telling stories, actors re-enacting this-world events, and poetic/musical performers might play a role in the building of heroes.

Kin dies, cattle dies, stories don't - and bards live to tell...

Yes, please count me in!

:1)

(already the knife in the teeth)

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Arkat is alwyas depicted by the Westerners as having red skin and red hair. The Orlanthi depict him as having black skin and red hair and a third eye.

Interesting...

Does my memory fail me, or was Arkat mistakenly assigned to the Warrior caste (Horali), whereas, based on natural birth order, he should have been a Wizard (Zzaburi)?

If birth rank determines caste, and color skin is based on caste, do Brithini babies get the "right skin" not upon birth, but frex after a peoper ceremony/ritual officially grants them the appropriate caste?

And Brithini brothers may look oddly familiar, but in different shades...

To add on this...

We gamers think all too easily Orlanthi = Sartar. Which is quite backward, loosely populated, un-urbanized, as you'd expect from a mountain area.

But Sartarites look to Esrolia and Heortland, when they look for "civilized" culture. Most resettlers come indeed from Hendrikiland, and unsurprisingly, their rebel Queen, Kallyr, turns to Whitewall for hope. Worth noting Broyan is a Vingkotling, hence ranking higher, but also that High Kings have reigned over Volsaxiland for ages. And these are urbanized regions with Karse, Smithstone, Bullford, etc.

Not to mention Tarsh/Southern Peloria, which used to be an important (and rich) Orlanthi centre.

Btw, even though it isn't the best analogy: the Gauls was as densely populated and urbanized as Roman Italy, before the conquest by Cesar.

7 hours ago, ChildOfEru said:

Another piece of Glorantha lore I am not familiar with...where can I learn about Vadeli?    A quick google search didn't reveal much.    

Well, normally people avoid "becoming familiar with the Vadeli", if they can ;-)

Look at the Guide of course, and Revealed Mythologies (Viymorni and their fall from Danmalastan...)

Godtime doesn't "flow" effortlessly, you go to events rather than moments.

IIRC you can only quest to historical events, in so far as they are part of God time i.e. when the Compromise was broken.

So, you may quest to the Battle of Night and Day (Uz certainly keep trying to change its outcome), or the Battle of Castle Blue, because these are moments when Gods were back, and Time wasn't constraining things any more.

Could you "stay there" and start a new life in a different period? I don't know. Maybe...

Another interesting phenomenon is the synchronicity in Godtime.

Questers from different places and historical periods may meet in the same Godtime Quest.

Heck, Arkat met his future/past self sometimes, and even wounded "himself". Probably the "ZZ Arkat" inflicting incurable wound on the "Humakti Arkat"...

That's the occupational hazard of taking different mythic roles in turn, I guess...!

Well, Brithini customs also offer insight into Danmalastan era - a point the Rokari would seldom overlook.

Thanks Jeff, very interesting!

Of course, these are just ideas if you need villains for the righteous to overcome.

Should you want more tragedy, I'd look into the seeds of a future failure of Idealism.

For instance, I doubt the sons of Talar/nobles remain Dronar/peasants for long. At first, it may be smooth - just grant them a quick promotion, it's only natural that the son of such a great man will soon prove his worth. And it wouldn't be wise to expose him unnecessarily to the dangerous charms of ambitious farm girls... ;-)

Time passing, it may be semi-institutional: the examiners know they are expected to agree on this young lad to pass. In fact, being an examiner is a proof of the Lords' trust, a sign that they, in turn, will soon be positively examined...

More time passing, the corruption among examiners calls for strong measures: let's make sure they all come from fine and proven families, who won't be tempted by greed, because they only look forward to greater rewards from the Perfect State.

Later still, nobody will be surprised that examiners and rulers form a single close-knit group, where the passing of grades becomes a ceremonial ordination of the young into adult stages. "Bon sang ne saurait mentir!"

At that point, any of the aforementioned villains will no doubt target these promising youngsters as potential recruits, or foolish victims. Isn't that the safest way to work around tests, thorough examinations, and inquisitive spells?

(Mordred was the son of a gifted enchantress, and a blameless noble...)

By the time the Red Emperor washes his blade in the Ozur Bay, who knows what kingdom will face him...

Did your PCs repell the threats one after the other? Did the King tighten the rope on his fellow aristocrats, and all their beloved children? Did constant battle againt the Kingdom of War provoke Loskalm's fall - or its transformation into a ruthless meritocracy where only the strong survive?

YGWV - this is the Hero War.

How wonderfully optimistic :-)

i have a feeling that enumerating all these ways and means of the Loskalmi Idealists to root out crime and heresy actually gives  interesting hints on (potential) successful deviants.

Because, hey, this is magic Glorantha!

If the Hrestoli have strong detection magic, another magic can surely have it fail - e.g. being illuminated, using an Illusion grimoire, etc.

In not-so-far-away Jonatela, they call Eurmal "friend of man". Heck, he's surely a good friend to fool those straight-thinking Malkioni rulers ;-)

Does he have an underground cult in Loskalm? I don't know.

Along the Janube are lovely Lunar-cultured city states.

Does the Unspoken Word maintain a network in Loskalm? I don't know.

Among the ancestors of some provincial inhabitants are many Noyalings, some of whom worshipped the Tarjinian Bull.

Did they survive the curses of Talor, and wait for their time to come? I don't know.

In the Kingdom of War, murderous and treacherous cults abound. Man means prey, castle means loot.

Did they already start the run for first-behind-the-walls in Loskalm? I don't know.

Perfect Loskalm has destroyed, banned or bound all local spirits. All they could find, for sure.

What kind of spirits could escape the spells of the Church, lurking in unexpected places? I don't know.

The closer the light, the longer the shadow...

Thralls: they are not property but captive humans, and the clan  (rather than a single individual) typically rule them. The chieftain, ringmembers, thanes can naturally decide most what they want.

A thrall's child belongs to the clan (probably becoming a cottar, unless the father is powerful and enamoured; for all its freedom-loving stance, the Orlanthi culture has castes, about as much as Malkioni do...).

Now, as for rapes... Orlanthi justice is not a long shot from "might makes right". For instance, secret murder is bad, but open killing (outside kin, hospitality, etc) is only an economical loss - and getting it compensated can prove a tough challenge.

The myth of Orlanth and Thed is quite telling: he is very reluctant to condemn Ragnaglar (his brother) for his bad deeds, and raped victims are usually not more than Thed in a position to claim justice...

That's one of the shortfalls of Orlanthi "law" (quite a collection of contradictory cases, really). Chaos loves when law is flawed...

So you can get a great variety of situations - I am sure the poor female captives in a war are neither protected as kin/Orlanthis/anywhere close, and can be treated as strangers warriors can rape, like Orlanth himself did so many times.

Even marriage could be but a thin veil over rape, under some circumstances: a wife may divorce and return to her clan... unless she was married as part of a "please stop the feud and we'll pay you a regular tribute" kind of deal between the clans...

A rape is only deemed so if ruled as such by trial - by men or gods. Men's justice is, in this regard, highly likely to fail, and Orlanth himself may not be as prompt as you'd expect to condemn, and send his furies.

There are some protections, though: women themselves, and the goddesses. For instance, some have learnt the hard way that raping an Earth priestess may put the local Babeesrer Gors in a "good mood". And generally speaking, women do have social power, and will use it to prevent rapes; Ernalda cannot send retribution spirits on men, but she knows what happens to her worshippers, and disapproves of abuses.

Silly hoomanz, ya call yaselves civilized? HA! Pay attention to your mothers, ya fools!

Maybe Topi can give a better answer...

In (very) short, he uses the cards as "randomisers" instead of d20 - which gives additional information to ramble on, because of the theme and associations of ideas the card brings.

Not from the same universe, but I really like this quote:

Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class – whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy.
Politics as Repeat Phenomenon : Bene Gesserit Training Manual

Your Dune  May Vary ;-)

On 5 octobre 2016 at 3:34 PM, Darius West said:

  I can't imagine Sir Ethilrist's chaos mounts are widely loved either.

The Black Horse Demons could certainly polish their reputation, but are they chaotic??