Patrick

I see (at least) two options here: - either Argrath quested to birth/create a brand new six-limbed goddess (probably reusing Lunar secrets and links to Gorgorma to his advantage), and built the Temples for this Sister-Goddess. "Ok, creating gods is slightly untraditional, but guys, we need to stop these Pentans..." ("Which you strengthened by bringing about this traitor, you fool"... "- Elusu, don't abuse my patience!") - or he allies Yara Aranis "as she is" (well, questing a bit of course), and rebuilds the Temples in Tarsh and Holay to serve his own purpose. Does she maintain the Glowline still? But accepts to shut it down when so commanded? in that case, I'm curious about what happens to the other YA temples. Is the transformation so big that they also change, and the Heartlands may lose the Glowline? Or do we get two competing YA cults, fighting on both sides and using different rituals?

Also worth mentioning, many early Tribes were based on three clans organized as a Triaty. In that set up, men from clan A only marry women from clan B; men from clan B only marry women from clan C; and men from clan C only marry women from clan A... Which closes the loop. This schema seems less prevalent on modern-days (1600+) Sartar, but was very common at the time of the resettlement of Dragon Pass. Oh, and of course there are exceptions for every rule. For instance, among the Torkani tribe, people trace their ancestry (hence, the clan they belong to) through the female line. In other words, the Esrolian marriage is the norm, and the "standard" marriage the exception... (because of course, exceptional rules bear their own exceptions ;-) ).

You may want to take a second look at shamans. They meet and cooperate with a large range of otherworld entities, and can set up temporary/semi-permanent/persistent spirit cults. In Orlanthi societies, Kolating shamans have a place somewhat close to what you dedcribe: a bit outside, strange, yet acknowleddged as powerful.

Golden Vadeli? Really? That's the first time I see that as more than a rumor... Orlanthi would call any unpleasant ruler Evil Emperor anyway, just like many Malkioni call all non-humans Krjalki...

Will we get a chance to play it at the Kraken?

The description of Leplain is indeed worth reading. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a great deal of mistrust on Theoblanc's part. The Rokari Watcher in chief is quite suspicious of Schools that aren't Rokari in their very roots. And the Ezokites aren't - in fact, they already existed at Dawn. in fact, it could very well be that all Ezokites in Seshnela are now obligated to live in Leplain, and never pass its walls. Too useful to be declared heretics, too dubiously to be left wandering around, as is their whim... Now, how do the city guards know not to let them out, amidst the crowd at the gates? Well, they have an unmistakenably recognizable tattoo on the forefront... YGWV.

Well, one interesting point is the sequence of events. I am not sure the Lunar Army would seize the locals' reserves early enough to be safe from trouble. Lets's say you are a Lunar Commander in occupied territory (Sartar, Prax, Far Place, Esrolia...) Dark season, 1621: strange things happen. No winds at all, clouds stuck in the air. Your spies and contacts tell you the locals have lost most of their magic. But your magic is unaffected; you're unlikely the run a lot of Earth or Storm magic in the army. Well, that will keep them busy, and give you a rest. You inform the High Command, and wait for the news. And the news are great! Whitewall fell, Orlanth is dead, these barbarians have finally lost all the annoying magics they normally use and that were such a pain in 1586/1602/1613/all the time really... Now, it's a cold winter for sure. Damn, the river even froze. So you keep maneuvering to a minimum, celebrate with the troops inside the barracks, and look forward to a Full Moon Year... Storm season comes: still no wind! So you feel as great as the Red Emperor: bring in the priestesses, now is the time to make converts, some will no doubt realize the error of their ways... So you feel as great as the Red Emperor: bring in the priestesses, now is the time to make converts, some will no doubt realiz the error of their ways... it's a cold winter, really. Well, at least it isn't snowing. Maintain patrols, in case some desperate weirdoes wanna make suicidal attacks and join their god in death... And prep for Sacred Time. Sacred Time: your Lunar ceremonies work splendid, Yanafal Tarnils is super-strong. The villagers & locals seem to be still unable to contact their gods. So far, so good... Sea season 1622: man, that is a cold winter really. Worst you've seen for a long time. Would be good to be at home, protected by Kalikos; but let's not say it aloud, lest we lower the troops' morale. We have stored grain anyway. Supply will arrive next week: do make sure patrols escort it, those rebels may wanna complement their plates with moonbroth. End of Sea season: the locals haven't been able to sow. The newborn cattle mostly die, because there's nothing left for them. They will have a very bad year, and a hard time paying their taxes in Earth season (which, depending on your mood and inclination, may give you sadistic vengeful joy, or feel sympathetic). Maybe you should suggest to the General to exempt converts from taxes, you'll get recruits in no time. Fire season: something goes wrong. Really wrong. It's still as f*****g cold as in Winter, but we're getting close to Yelm's High Holy Day. Your priests and magicians don't understand why. Could it be a parting shot from Orlanth when he died? All the High Command is upset, and the Lunar College of Magic is questing in all directions to fix it of course. But who knows when? You are busy safeguarding the supply chain - the Emperor himself mobilized resources from the Heartlands to feed the Army, Hail the Moon! The Teelo Norri soup is more successful than ever. Many locals are starving - stubborn b*****ds. At the High Command, they say the new Reaching Moon Temple will protect the area. But how long will it take to uphold the ceremonies, I wonder. Earth season: it's still winter, and only the supplies keep us alive. The situation is becoming critical, and we got some bad news: that petty king called Broyan returned and killed some of our troops in Heortland. I keep it to myself, the men's morale is very low. There is no tax to be taken, I am glad the exemption of the Full Moon Year applies to converts and subservient clans; all I can do is try to uphold order and protect trade, so the troops are fed. Dark season 1622: it's still cold, but now it's also windy. Snow has returned! If supply caravan are late next week, we will all starve. I have sent a full regiment ahead to ensure safe passage. If they don't bring any news in 2 days, we will all leave the fort and head back home, but there will be no food left to plunder on the way...

At Chimériades, JC GM'ed a game where we, as Lunar soldiers, had to HQ to feed the army inside Sartar/Heortland after the fall of Whitewall. We re-enacted the birth of the Maize by Hon-Eel. My Pelorian character suggested to re-enact "Lodril warms Oria" instead, but thooz impOOOrtant people from the High Command, they ain't paying 'ttention to us loughly peasants in the rank'n file... ;-)

Shouldn't the Glowline protect Tarsh? I thought they weren't impacted by the Great Winter...? Otherwise, it would be interesting to see what they did to stop it: a re-birthing of the Goddess where the 7 Mothers would search for Orlanth/Storm instead? And what did they bring back, then: Doburdun, Orlanth with a vengeance, some kind of Storm Dragon that flew immediately to an unknown destination...?

Mmmm, that triggers an interesting question: what are Pentan bows made of?

Who is Ezok? Lots of good ideas, thanks!

The "Ekozite School" is mentioned in Revealed Mythologies, as established in the Dawn Era and focused on alchemical transformations. The "Ezokite School of Alchemy" is mentioned in the Guide, as located in Leplain. So... 1) Does the Guide supersede and correct the RM spelling, and we should only talk of Ezokites? 2) Did Ekozite wizards become Ezokite as some point - languages evolve, and 1600 years leaves plenty of time to trigger a switch on consonant sounds in a name? 3) Are they actually unrelated? (unlikely and minimum game fun) and in any case... What do we know about them, about from these very very brief mentions? Hints welcome, that would really help me writing my campaign; though I can always imagine my own silly solutions, of course ;-)

Well, there's at least that guy called Harrek, who thought he'd have some fun party by the gates of the City of Brass in 1615... The Brithini are powerful, but not invincible. As of 1621, Loskalm isn't an imperialist or intervention-prone country; so far, they left Junora to itself, and didn't intervene against Harrek's plunderer horde, so long as they didn't move further than Akem. What happens afterwards depends on quite a few factors, e.g. whether Loskalm is still too busy fighting the Kingdom of War to bother. YGMV. I am not saying the Red Emperor did NOT conquer Loskalm. Maybe that's the meaning of the sentence: "I [...] cleansed my weapons in the salt sea". Maybe not. Maybe the Kingdom of War will bow to him, on his glorious way to the West, in recognition of some secret link between them. Maybe not; and maybe he will even reawaken the Tarjinian Bull at the Gates of Banir, in Timms to crush them on his way down the Janube. Maybe he will bring Telmori along to overcome the defences of Sog, hence fulfilling an ancient prophecy. And maybe not. In any case... plenty of fun ideas to play with - just out of a half-forgotten stele in a faraway corner of the world! :-)

Thanks for bringing attention on this Stele :-) I had forgotten about it (GtG p744). Sometimes, detailed info can be found in unexpected places... Not sure it means The Red Emperor will overcome Loskalm, though. The "King of the West" could be the king of Charg (after the Ban is lifted). And the stele claims reached Sog City and the Sea, which means conquering Akem, rather than Loskalm. But there's plenty of good stuff here, for a Hero Wars campaign in Fronela ;-)

Well, maybe he's called The Invisible God for a reason ;-) Just a thought...

If I may reopen this discussion... I am wondering what happens from a "practical" point of view, when Malkioni evoke/worship Ascended Masters? Are they just considered "Guides of the Way", (e.g. the Old Zzaburi telling his student: "please read again the Commentary of St Xemela on Compassion and meditate Her Holy Path, then you will be in the proper disposition to channel the Energy of Life to the person you want to heal"; or preaching the farmers that "If you attend the Rites and follow the merciful example of St Xemela, your sick will enjoy the reward of their faith", which could just mean they grant some energy to the leading wizard to cast a blessing)? Or do commoners also get something from their veneration? (by commoner, I mean "someone who has no access to Grimoires", as is a widespread case in the West) Or is it just a labelling on some proper magic teaching, e.g.: "I follow the Path of St Talor" really means "I have learnt the spell to smash enemies mightily with a flail"... (and whether you are authorized & enabled to do so will obviously depend on caste and school: Seshnegi Rokari won't let Horali do that, Loskalmi Hrestoli will) Any light is welcome in the middle of the night of doubts...

A group of homes in Lokazzi, maybe?

Or: Your Ganderland May Vary ;-)

Not sure Ernaldans would so easily accept to be treated as "reproduction machines". And Orlanthi men would be foolish indeed to try that, in a context where Lunar occupiers would be all the happier to defend traditional women's rights... In a new way. But should Ernaldan women embrace the idea of breeding a new generation of fighters, well, thet can (and do) have children without husbands. So, after the 1602 conquest, maybe polyandry and bed-husbands returned, to compensate for the casualties in men. By 1621/27, the demography should be more balanced, though.

So you want to now about the Mystery before Time, do you? It's nice to try to understand the Godtime per se... But do we even understand Time, in a Gloranthan sense? In Time, most creatures and things slowly decay, and die. Time is the Son of Kajabor, produced by Arachne Solara as she digested the Chaos power of Destruction, captured in the web of all the Gods of the World. Time is destruction dissolved and diffused in the whole world. Time is Entropy. The Gloranthan version of the Second Principle of Thermodynamics. So, what Time as a Gloranthan God tells us about time as an experienced fact, is that the flow of time always goes into one same direction: to the future, to future destruction. Time is Glorantha's ever-postponed doom. Ok, now what does it tell us about Godtime? Well, the birth of time (as a god, and hence a mythically-grounded, real phenomenon) has nothing to do with pre-existing phenomena such as: sequence, cause-consequence. Zzaburi wouldn't believe you if you said such a foundational principle of Logic was absent from Danmalastan, the realm of Logic before the Godswar. In fact, Time is very much a consequence itself... Yet, before Time, paths could take you anywhere in space and time. From the Six Stones, Humakt and Zorak Zoran took different ways; maybe some were towards their own past. Maybe a man could walk back to childhood. At least, no one was constrained to grow ever older... Of course, there were ways and paths, means and actions: to swim up the flow up the flow of Life was possible, but probably under certain conditions. Certain laws. Certain logic. Maybe some of these ways changed, as a result of consequences. Because other Powers, such as Death, opposed it. Or because paths became increasingly complex, intermingled, collective. Yelm would probably have loved to reassemble immediately to face his turbulent challenger, but he could no more. The Empire of the Gold Age involved too many beings, too many decisions, too many life-flows to be reinstated just by the will of One. Yelm found out he couldn't bath twice in the same Oslir... ;-) So, what do we know about Godtime and the rules that governed its "backward sequences" and palimpseste realities? Very little indeed! But as long as Godtime will be, its everlasting immutable Sequence will always lead to the same Godswar's Aftermath: the creation, in fact the constant re-creation of Time. To break the Compromise breaks the rule of time; as happened visibly during the Sunstop. And as long as Time will last, so will Godtime. Because Godtime is the eternal ground where Time grows. To bring Godtime into the timely world, as happened at Castle Blue, also brings non-Time into the Godtime: the creation of a Myth, the Birth of an everpresent, yet new Goddess. Sequences are only a limited view of the Cycle of the Infinite (Ouroboros, Arachne Solara, Rashoran - whatever: the name you give it is not its real name; without a name, it is the Origin of All). Only by touching the Infinite can you understand both Time and Godtime. There's no point looking behind the mirror... you are already your own reflection. Now, please roll for Illumination ;-)

Sorry, I was thinking weak debit compared to Magasta, Engizi, Oslir... You're right, instant speed can be high.

Mmmm, there might be a misunderstanding here. Snakes (aka serpents in English) are indeed Earth-related animals, and Ernalda can command them. But Serpent, in Prax, is the word designating a seasonal river. It is a Water flow, albeit a weak one. Nothing to do with snakes.

I love such Gloranthan discussions! So, what do we have here? Horses, Yelmalio and Saird. All spinned-off from Sun Dome Temples :-) I am not as learned as previous writers on this thread, but please allow me to throw some more confusion... Let me start with horses (puts Meldek high hat on). "So, what is a horse?" A horse is a creature of Fire, that was ripped of its wings, and turned into a four-legged animal rambling the surface of the Earth. It was then tamed, or domesticated, and so that riders would be able to move faster and further. "That is the myth - the childish stories these heathens tell at night in their pitiful huts. But you know more now, my young apprentice. Let me repeat my question: what is a horse?" Yes, Master, of course. The essence of a horse is made up of Sky, Beast, Movement and Mastery. That is how one may analyze it. "Good, good, young fellow. We needn't rely on fairy tales to practice proper sorcery, do we? Now, keep going, and let me know more about these components of the Horse..." Fire (or Sky) is the Origin - the Element that nourishes the existence of Horse. Beast is the Form: the shape and type of creature where we classify horses ancestry traced from Sky. Movement is the Power - what Horse can manipulate, and why we manipulate them. They move fast, and can carry loads or riders. Mastery is the Condition - the way we use to manipulate the Power, or even use the Form or trace all the way to the elemental energy. Although of course, we shall not tap a horse, Master. By mastering a horse, a rider may tame and harness its power; which, in turns, gives us the ability to Command and Master lowly people, thanks to our superior cavalry, that pagans rightfully envy us. "That is well-answered, yound wizard. I shall think of you when the Talar asks for help..." ;-) Allright, so Gloranthan horses are somehow related to various Runes. And, unsurprisingly, the Deities that are linked to horses are also somewhat tied to these Runes. Who did we mention? Let me think... Yelm (Fire/Mastery): - THE god of Fire, Yelm is the source of sky creatures - the Mastery expressed in horses may be a remnant of Hippogriff's position at Yelm's Court, when the Sky was Perfect - however, Yelm is also a Stasis God; not quite fitting the Movement exemplified by horses, and their (often nomad) riders - I quite like the story of the Sandals, and horses becoming a way to keep purity in an impure world (where the sky itself is now moving...) Hippoi (Fire/Beast?): - aka Hipogriff, she was the mount of Splendid Yamsur, Yelm's Eldest Son - Daughter of Griffin, Yelm's steed - She was broken by various enemies (Urox, Zorak Zoran, Maran Gor), and stripped of flight - I would envision her as the Mother of Horses, i.e. their ancestor cult (for intelligent horses) Redaylda (Fire/Movement): - Daughter of Ernalda and Orlanth, she should be part of the Earth tribe (in HW Storm Tribe, she had Earth/Beast) - aka Redalda, Redaylde or Redayla - she is the Horse-Lover Goddess - wife of Elmal, who is a Fire deity with a pre-existing relation to horses - somehow related to Reladivus... Gamara (?): - presumably another name for Hippoi and/or Redaylda? (among the "Pentan" horse nomads) Arandayla (?): - presumably another name for Hippoi? (among the Grazers) Hyalor (?): - He helped and domesticated Hippoi, after she was broken - Son or descendant of Yamsur - Ancestor of the Hyalorings, i.e. Grazers, Char-Un, and some modern Pentans Reladivus (Fire/Truth): - another name for Yelmalio? Elmal (Fire/Truth): - unclear son of Yelm - might be another name for Yelmalio? (I know this is open to debate; but hey, the question may be asked!) Antirius (Fire/Truth): - another name for Yelmalio? (among the Dara Happans) Kargzant (?): - Son of the Sun - another name for Yelmalio? (among the Grazers) Daysenerus: - another name for Yelmalio (1st Age Saird) Tharkanthus: - another name for Yelmalio (2nd Age Saird) Yu-Kargzant: - another name for Yelm (among the Grazers) Halamalao: - another name of Yelmalio (among the elves) So, we get plenty of cults based on plenty of gods... and spread across plenty of cultures! Dara Happans, and Theyalans/Orlanthi, and Pentan Horse Nomads, and Pure Horse People/Grazers/Hyalorings (who actually differ from Pentans! Yeehaa, some more new insights about the Grazers...). And the funny bit is: of course, across Time, ALL these cultures & people somehow met in Saird :-) If you love horses, it seems like Saird is THE place to be! (Wraps hiself in shades, and grasps a three-arrowed staff) "Certainly, all that is well, and you have learnt the Paths. But you must know your enemy better, so tell me more about the God of Palangio." Yelmalio is a mysterious God, Ô Wise One. He was seduced by Bright Nysalor, or at least Palangio was. But we know little of the Paths he walked. We may acknowledge him, in spite of our enemity, some True Honor - as shows in the duel of Kartolin Pass... "I know all this, young fellow. But come to the point: what is the link between Yelmalio and horses?" Apart from geases and Sun Dome cavalry, it is hard to tell, Dark Lord. However, isn't it funny that, like Hippoi, he is a broken but surviving Fire God?

Yeeha! Do nomad cultists call on shamans to contact Yelmalio? I like that, somewhat reminds me of the Balazar temple stories...

Ok, I understand better. However, it sort of leads to the idea that Light Khans can actually perform some ceremonies, doesn't it? I don't want to tie anything to a rule system, but holy day ceremonies are not only a cult requirement; they also provide magical benefits (which have a lot to do with choosing a minority cult, at least among the nomads). especially: what about new initiations? If I spread 12000 initiates every 40 years, I get some 60 initiations per season. If these guys come to the Sun Dome to be initiated, we get an order of magnitude quite different from the 3-4 Light Khans hanging around (and that's on top of them, of course). not overthrowing the city, but still making a very significant and very regular contact... Maybe I'm wrong, but I can hardly believe 12000 Yelmalion nomads are dependant on a weird foreign settlement to run their cult. (let alone asking whether some of them starting sun worship before the coming of Arinsor!)