M Helsdon

5 hours ago, Scorus said:

I was trying to reconcile GtG with the history of Aram-Ya-Udram written by Stafford in Wyrms Footnotes #3

Long retconed I fear.

5 hours ago, Scorus said:

Neither mention Maran Gor, where did you find that?

An unpublished source.

In the ancient world, tenants worked land in two different relationships with the landowner:

• A fixed annual payment to be made. If the harvest was poor the tenant could be pushed into debt because they might not be able to make the payment; if the harvest was good, the tenant enjoyed the excess. Debt often led to people becoming debt slaves.
• A percentage payment to be made according to the harvest. Less risk for the tenant if the harvest was poor, but less profit if the harvest was good.

The tenant could also indulge in other activities such as 'cottage industries' and hunting.

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

i think the term "troll" here has always been a misnomer; they're part demon because they have been solo-worshipping the Darkness for thousands of years, not part-uz-proper.

For centuries, not millennia. Aram used a Darkness demon to help defeat Gouger but his people didn't worship the demon until long after his death.

Both the Guide to Glorantha and The History of the Heortling People place the Ivory Plinth as a site at the Dawn, so Arim slew Gouger before the Dawn, and the Arimites were riding tuskers before Time began. The Arimites became half-trolls much later. [THotHP has a half-troll king riding a tusker also called Gouger, but much much smaller than the child of Maran Gor killed by Arim Ya Udram.]

Peloria as a term in biology derives from Latin (a modern form) and from the Greek word pelōros, meaning 'monstrous'.

Just saying.....

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Who would do the smuggling for the Caprati and the Du Turmerine's or would they just do it themselves?

Given that the Queen will be deriving no small part of her income from port dues and duties, bear in mind that most smuggling will take place outside the port. For Nochet clandestine meetings between merchant tubs and reed boats and punts will occur south of the city where the marshy isles and twisting muddy channels will offer ideal hiding places for those boats to lurk, hide, load and unload. 

I've been examining old documents by Greg Stafford shared with me by various people when I was writing Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass. I will delete this post if requested as it contains Chaosium IP. 

There are two describing horses. One is dated to 1997. An earlier one, a text file, probably from earlier in the 90s, says:

The Galana is the most common horse breed in Dragon Pass, Kethaela, Maniria, Ralios, and Talastar. This tough big-headed horse is used to swiftly pull chariots over uneven ground, with only the largest suitable as cavalry mounts.  

They are named for Galana the Sun-goddess and Galanin the noble ancestor of the Sun Horse-worshiping Galanini clans of the Enerali tribes of central Ralios. At the Dawn the Enerali chiefs fought from chariots pulled by their ponies, sacred to their horse deity. They had survived the Great Darkness by following the sacred herds.

Elsewhere, the Galanini clans were extinguished during the Darkness, though their horse herds survived throughout Orlanthi lands and were placed under the protection of Orlanth’s thane Elmal and his wife Redalda the Horse Goddess.

The Galana ponies of the East Wilds of Ralios are smaller than their cousins elsewhere, but share the same attributes: small ears, a fine muzzle, a flat nose, long neck and small hooves, suited to rough and stony ground. The mane and tail are long and wavy. 

This breed can graze on shrubs, leaves and grasses. The Galana are dun to brown, usually with tails and manes darker than their coat. 

The cattle-herding Pol-Joni entered Prax two centuries ago, securing their place in the Battle of Denzis Water. Despite not being included in the Survival Covenant, their horses (and cattle) have partially adapted to the harsh conditions of Prax, requiring only two thirds of the fodder and water of those elsewhere. The horses of the Pol-Joni are primarily a hardy subtype of the Galana, through mixed with other breeds. They have a strong, well-muscled body, a broad chest and powerful, rounded hindquarters. A piebald coat is common: usually a mixture of white or pale gold, and brown. 

Much of this information is summarized in RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary published in 2018, but long predates it. Obviously, this is no longer fully canonical. Redaylda's husband is now recognized as either Hyalor or his son Beren.

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Even basic components change dramatically from culture to culture in shape, in material, in attachments.  If you compare Scythian, Chinese, Greek, Celtic, Egyptian, Hittite, Assyrian, Roman, Seleucid etc. chariots change over time.  A military shock chariot is very different from a racing chariot or a hunting chariot or a religious chariot or a war chariot designed for missile combat. 

Yes, Darius, I know, but it still doesn't change the fact that the basic design and components didn't change very much in form or usage. They are basically a two-wheeled car pulled by two or more horses.

There were very few 'military shock chariot(s)' as chariots were ineffective against disciplined formations. Even the Seleucid scythed chariots weren't militarily very useful. There are only two recorded instances when similar 'shock chariots' had any impact: once when the Persians were pursuing the Ten Thousand in 399 BC and at Amnias in 89 BC.

Military chariots were either battlefield taxis or missile platforms, useful in scattering an already disordered enemy (and that's what happened when Pharnabazus caught up with the Ten Thousand - and his force was almost entirely cavalry).

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to the inaccuracies vis Ben Hur,  I think I read about the body lacing of the reins in in Vera Oliviva's "Chariot Racing in the Ancient World" and a couple of other places.  Does Gibbons mention it?  Racers all carried daggers for hacking themselves loose from the reins, and it was made deliberately dangerous to make the sport more exciting, as well as allegedly offering the drivers more control over the larger 4 horse teams due to being able to exert greater strength.  It was exclusively a Roman thing and mainly late empire afaik.

And not used in any military context for obvious reasons. A racing chariot with its single occupant was not a military chariot or used over battlefield terrain.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

There is clearly a lot of design change over time.  While the technology of the chariot itself remains identifiable, virtually every element of the design is refined over time. 

The basic components remained constant, even early chariots had suspension. Chariots rarely worked as shock weapons and scythed wheels were not very practical.

The Ur 'chariot' was more a battle cart or wagon (the four wheels make it a very different vehicle).

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

As to no chages in driving them, the Romans are on record as lashing the reins around their bodies, which most earlier charioteers didn't do afaik.

For very good reasons.... It's not a very wise thing to do. It was claimed to help them use their body weight to control their horses in a race; whilst there's many things that are inaccurate in Ben Hur, the chariot race shows what happens when things go wrong. The actors and stunt men did not lash their reins around their bodies. Just watch what happens when Messala has his reins lashed around his arms, and then imagine how much worse having them around his waist would be.

Lots about chariots in: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?

Illustrations by Angus McBride of a Sumerian battle cart, Assyrian heavy chariot, Egyptian chariot, British chariot,  Seleucid scythed chariot....

12 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Fantasy Europe. And the box explicitly says "Derived from Roman examples". So not so much Bronze Age.

Chariot technology didn't change very much between the Bronze and Iron Age, and nor did the techniques of driving them. The only significant difference was the bands of iron that held the circle of the wheel together; earlier sinew or bronze was used for the tires. 

3 hours ago, SDLeary said:

I think Darius point though is that Glorantha of the time, and Sartar/Tarsh in particular, was not represented as having any sort of major use of chariot, either as a simple mode of transportation or as a component in mobile artillery.

An early Greg document I have where he wrote about units in White Bear and Red Moon refers to chariots, including artillery chariots later given to Dara Happa. And of course, RQ3 Sun County refers to the Sun Domer's chariot regiment destroyed in the Dragonkill and their remaining ceremonial chariot.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would point out though that RQ2 and RQ3 and HQ had no chariot rules. 

RQ3 Monster Coliseum had chariot rules.

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That being said, if Chaosium ever produced the Stafford Library in printed form again, I would certainly purchase them.

https://www.lulu.com/spotlight/MoonDesign

I'd completely forgotten revising that section of Armies & Enemies....

21 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

An "upwards-pointing chevron" is also, of course, the Spartan "Lambda" (as seen in "300"), and the most distinctive element of the planetary Rune for the solar war-god Shargash/Tolat. Just putting that out there.

As described, the original Yelmalion 'arrow' was probably reassigned as Pamalt's Spear, with a very different meaning.

I misremembered - the original Yelmalio symbol was a spear.

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Their ancient traditions were written, revised or rediscovered by Tarkalor's companion Monrogh some fifty to seventy years ago, after he'd visited the Sun Dome Temple in Prax and learned how things were meant to work. He also innovated, informed by his heroquesting experiences in Teshnos, Land of Fire: his "Vision of the Many Suns" was what brought the Elmali into the Sun Dome Temple, while freeing Yelmalio from the at times overbearing presence of Father Yelm.

This is a fundamental point. Modern Vanntar, the Sun Dome of Sartar is the manifestation of Monrogh's visions.

And his interpretation of those visions. In our history, numerous visionaries have sought to remold their cultures to match their visions; these visionaries are remembered as prophets, fundamentalists, lawgivers, revolutionaries, heroes - and monsters. 

The Sun Dome culture of Prax is an outlier and survival of the Second Age Yelmalion cult, isolated, xenophobic, and probably atypical in many ways of the Sun Domes of Saird, most of which have a long unbroken tradition (or unbroken traditions). The Sairdite Sun Domes never lost their horses, for example.

The Solar culture of Teshnos is very different from the Solar cultures of Peloria; the one possible influence is the presence of several Solar deities, unknown, or at least unrecognized by a Sartarite. Interestingly, the Little Sun is not a major figure in their pantheon.

Whatever Monrogh brought back served for the creation of an invigorated Elmal cult, now rebranded as Yelmalion, in Sartar. The one definite thing it shares with the Sairdite Sun Domes is the antipathy towards Darkness. I suspect that the Cult write-ups of Yelmalio will reflect Monrogh's version of the cult in southern Dragon Pass.

[It's interesting that in Greg's draft Army List for White Bear, Red Moon, the Yelmalions were relatively hi-tech, with not only pikes, but repeating chariot mounted ballista, and their shields bore an an upwards pointing arrow denoting their philosophy of Progress. That's all long gone, save for the phalangite phalanxes.]

11 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Martin @M Helsdon has a toned-down version of the ergeshi in his Armies & Enemies, which is also a great source for variations between Sun Dome Temples.

My source was the article in Wyrms Footnotes 15. The Sun Domers in Sartar there treat their helots far better than the Spartans treated their helots....

I assumed a wide variety of military cultures among the Sun Domes (though phalangite phalanxes are common), which often suggest variations in their civic culture. And of course there are Yelmalion regiments in Saird who don't fight with pikes: the White-Legs of Vanch (described in Greg's notes) are quite distinct.

The Telmori in Sartar are longstanding enemies of the other tribes of Sartar; their Chaos taint and being werewolves each Wildday only exacerbates the conflict. Even if they were untainted, they would be outsiders to the Orlanthi tribes.

It's the old conflict between settled farmers and herders, and nomads, in this case hunter-gatherers for whom the crops and herds are there to be raided and predated. This is very different to the cattle raiding the Orlanthi perform amongst themselves.

The Temori are the natural enemies of the way of life of the majority of agrarian and pastoral Orlanth, Barntar, Ernalda worshipers in Sartar. Any adult Telmori will be recognized as such by their personal adornment, their Beast nature obvious, their deeds and way of life abhorred, making them at best unwelcome at any shrine or temple. Orlanthi hunters won't like them, as the Telmori are rivals, and rivals who in Beast form will hunt men, women, children....

Only Sartar and his dynasty befriended and allied with the Telmori. Argrath's use of the hostility of the Sartari tribes to the Telmori is suggestive that his dynastic claims are tenuous. His use of the Telmori as an enemy to be exterminated as a unifying force in binding the tribes together, under his rule, was very cynical. Add in to this that there were heirs of Sartar among the Telmori who were not assassinated by the Lunars, and his motives are even less pleasant. And when Lunar agents incite the already beleaguered Telmori into rebellion.....

42 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Given that they have a cyclic Combat Factor, and the following from the Stafford House Campaign (page 6):

I'd say Wolf Runners = Telmori.

From old material I have seen, that's because they wear the pelts of the defeated Telmori and gain magical powers every Wildday when the Red Moon is full.

Reading old material there is ambiguity, and before the campaigns to destroy the Telmori, the Wolf Runners may have been Telmori (in the Guide Telmori are referred to as Wolfrunners) but afterwards were people wearing Telmori skins.

One very old document Jeff shared with me several years ago is a draft of Greg's own Armies & Enemies, based on the RMWB board game. It's now long overtaken (for example the Yelmalions' Rune is an upwards arrow denoting Progress) but the Wolf Runners are described as fighting beside dogs and wearing wolf skins (though another list says they fought beside wolves). It reads as though their nature was in transition at the time, from Telmori to those who fought them.

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They supported Kallyr, and presumably fought (and died) by her side, maybe not at Dangerford but surely at the Battle of Queens.

The Temori Royal Guard was disbanded in 1624 - see The Coming Storm/Eleven Lights.

Other Telmori may have aided Kallyr, but the guard were gone.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Telmori are a Sartar unit in the Boardgame.

Perhaps you are confusing the Wolf Runners unit with the Telmori?

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

This doesn't preclude some sort of reforming of the Royal Guard at a later date.  In any case, the Telmori definitely fight for Sartar during the Hero Wars.  Whether or not the Royal Guard reform would be up to the individual GM, and what sort of Argrath he wants in his world.  

We are told they are not 'reformed', and as the Wolf Runners are wearing Telmori skins, that is very improbable.

They fought for Sartar before 1624, but not afterwards.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That is unlikely given the Telmori features in the Sartarite Hero Wars line-up. 

I have no idea what that means.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Given they are Royal Bodyguards, it is more likely that they try to pull some "praetorian guard" nonsense on Argrath.  We all know how he feels about assassins. 

Later the Telmori were fighting for their survival against the other Sartari that's not likely.

The Royal Guard ends in 1624 when Goram Whitefang dies striving to defend his kinsman Temertain against the Humakti assassins, and the Telmori blood connection to the House of Sartar is severed. The Telmori Royal Guard completely disbands, abandoning their homes in Boldhome, and returns to the Wolf Ridges.

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our RQG campaign is approaching (actually, slightly past  canon) the time for this very troubling event.  (1627 ish) My question as current GM for this is simple: Why?

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

One thing to bear in mind is that few religions in Glorantha are monolithic blocs of attitudes and beliefs (the Lunars and Rokari are perhaps the most 'centralized'), and between and within Yelmalio temples there will be a variety of attitudes. Those who live among Orlanthi, whilst 'different' still share many Orlanthi attitudes, and there will also be different individual outlooks. Yes, there are differences, but there's no reason a Yelmalion initiate can't get along with an Orlanthi initiate; things may get more complicated at Rune levels, but.... I suspect that in Sartar, the difference between the modern worshippers of Yelmalio and their ancestors who worshipped Elmal are not particularly deep.

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

To the right in the sketch, down the beach, sorry I wasn't clear. I was assuming Sklar was similar to Delos, I have no idea what Sklar's map is like...

I doubt Sklar is anything like Delos. The picture of Delos was shared to illustrate a beach harbor.