M Helsdon

Here's the outline sketch of a trireme being launched by Mark Smylie (it will be a full-pager). This is intended to be at Sklar, with the ship being hauled into the water at high tide on rollers along a track of supporting timbers. The ship is both being pulled into the water and restrained, as launching and beaching a ship as large as a trireme is always tricky. Shores are lying nearby, ready to be used to prop her up if necessary. She's sliding quite quickly into the water.

Note that the masts haven't yet been raised and set in the mast steps, to keep the ship's center of gravity as low as possible.

Ducks and merfolk watch the launch.

Another picture Mark is doing for me shows sails being manufactured at Sklar - the individual panels woven on looms, and then being stitched together.

Building and outfitting a galley like a trireme is a massive undertaking, of carpenters, redsmiths, weavers, painters, and all the crafts and support those trades need.

So far as I'm aware, only one definite ancient shipbuilding site has been identified and excavated - at Marseille - and features here are based on that. There would have been countless other sites, but they are lost (drowned, built over, etc.), or not yet identified.

27 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

On Diros, only a few ships, likely stylized as shipbuilding area... Seapolis seems to have a drydock but can't tell. Likely any shipbuilding is done under roof or along beaches east-west of there?

Beaches will be the most likely shipbuilding sites, sometimes on a slipway, but shipsheds are too 'tight' to be used as they are designed for storage. Ships are built on level beaches above the high tide mark, and slid into the water on rollers, on a wooden or stone slipway.

The map of Seapolis looks to be an unofficial one from Tradetalk - and whilst there's an official Seapolis scenario book on its way I haven't seen it, or its map. A dry dock seems unlikely, especially there....

Diros Isle has a huge amount of space for shipbuilding. It is a convenient site with a ready workforce in the largest city in the world, and close to rivers useful in moving timber from inland forests. Sklar has access to timber, but perhaps not quite as conveniently; much of Heortland's forest is long gone, whereas Diros can get timber from very extensive forests to the west, and southwest. Shipbuilding devours a huge amount of timber - I've calculated how many trees a trireme requires, and it is frightening. Diros is also where modern shipbuilding began with Dormal, so it is the major site, and in addition to shipbuilding will maintain and perform repairs on the huge numbers of merchant ships coming to Nochet from all around the Homeward Ocean. In comparison, Sklar perhaps has less mercantile work.

The best known real world ship sheds are Greek, the main site being Piraeus. They give us an idea of the size of the ships they held, important for the reconstruction of triremes. Several of your ship shed pictures are by a Greek artist/archaeologist who has been involved with the long running excavations at Piraeus - I've exchanged a few messages with him.

Ship sheds were (and are in Glorantha) intended to hold a ship securely outside the sailing season, so that it carefully dries out with good ventilation - something you won't get in a cliff cave. 

27 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Tell me more!? What is JC? 

The Jonstown Compendium. My ships book is currently 382 pages....

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The minotaur is a nice touch!

Thank you. He appears in several pictures, and some Ducks and merfolk attend the ship being launched.

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Lined with lead?  Or sheathed? Sheathed would make more sense to me, because lining can only have an effect after the worms have eaten through the wood, while sheathing is preventive.

Lined or sheathed, depending on circumstances.

I've heard that potatoes are grown in Sartar....

12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

thinking flatbottomed barges could have been used along the coasts in the Bay.

Merchant tubs have fairly flat keels to permit draft beaching, so that the ship can be loaded and unloaded in the shallows. These ships are used in the Mirrorsea and along the southern coast. Larger round ships have to either use lighters offshore or dock at a pier or wharf.

Heavy cargo such as filled amphorae and metal are loaded as low as possible, with the heaviest cargo towards the stern to maintain the vessel's trim under sail. 

Sketch by Mark Smylie - a work in progress. Note the shores used to prop the ship in place, and the ship's ladder.

A non-canonical excerpt from my JC book in progress:

The city nestles against the cliffs of the plateau fronted by a long broad beach which shelves gradually into the water. The trade harbor is sheltered but small, with shrines to loud-thundering Orlanth, who may be asked for fair winds, and the fisher brothers Pelaskos and Poverri.

Sklar’s wide beach, named the Fleet for the number of vessels frequently hauled up on the white sand or moored close-to in the water, is used for the construction of ships, with stone-built and tile-roofed narrow shipsheds stretching along its curve, capable of housing thirty or more biremes and triremes, and even larger warships. The ships are built out on the sand or upon the stone slipways. In shipbuilding, its facilities are second only to Diros Island.

The site was seized by the Lunars, but most of the ships, even half-crewed, evaded capture, and those only part-built were set afire. The Pelorians had hoped to use the shipyard to make a fleet of their own, but their ambitions came to naught.

In the wetter climate of this coast at times there is little to be gained in dragging a ship out of the water to dry out, only to leave its timbers exposed to the elements. Keeping the ships undercover when not in use hinders them rotting. Most shipsheds are roofed in pairs or fours with sufficient ventilation to dry out the vessels within. Slipways of laid stone slabs lead over the sand to the sea.

Often Sklar, entire, is simply called Fleet, such is the importance of its shipyard. There is also room for the substantial number of fishing boats, and a Sea Temple to cater to the crews. The shipwrights and crews mostly worship Dormal and Diros, and most of the oarsmen are Rightarm Islanders, who often camp in tents on the beach. The deck crews, who handle the sails, are almost all Orlanthi, recruited from the fisher families of Sklar, or even from young men and women down from the plateau seeking adventure.

Work-in-progress by Mark Smylie: ship being built at the beach of Sklar.

8 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

What is meant by dogmen?

Worshippers of Jajagappa and/or Rowdril. The Dalini regiment of Holay worships Rowdril and is accompanied by war dogs.

9 hours ago, GoldShogun said:

Is there any sources I can look into which describe in more detail the lunar army. I have various questions related to the topic such as:

As Rodney says, these topics and many others are addressed in my Jonstown Compendium title The Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass.

Officers doubtless supply their own equipment, and most auxiliaries, but the majority of regiments are equipped from their own depots. 

On 1/10/2023 at 10:08 AM, Nick Brooke said:

(Why don't any of the people who keep telling us they want more RQ settings outside of Dragon Pass and Prax ever discuss Paul's significant body of work? It baffles me)

By my own experience, sales for material outside the core region don't seem to have a large market, comparing the sales of Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass with Men of the West.

I would expect there to be many male nature spirits, especially in temperate areas where plants and trees are affected by winter, as examples of dying/reborn spirits, both in the wild and in agriculture. For agriculture, perhaps these are the sons of the Grain Goddesses; in the wild, sons of Flamal who follow the same life cycle as their father.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This is a fantasy game!

A complex multi-layered fantasy game.

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So as Mr. Helsdon posted/linked in the Refuge and Karse thread:

“Sometimes, as in the case of Zedei who lived twice before the War of the Gods. Usually, however, upon reemergence the Kaelith gains more than his former power. He has the ability to change his form into almost anything else, and then to completely disassociate his soul from any physical form without going to the Underworld.”

 

See the Xeotam Dialogues. As an in-world document it is not entirely reliable and its terminology is likely local to southern Ralios.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/xeotam-dialogues/

I'd be very wary of treating such an in-world document as literally true and reliable.

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It's not new - the concept appears originally in WBRM for all the heroes, and is noted in the old RQ Companion in discussing Ethilrist if I recall correctly.

Heroes who succeed in climbing out of the Underworld after death are classified as Kaelith. Such people are powerful superheroes, but, there are never any guarantees that having escaped once they will succeed again.

See the Xeotam Dialogues. As an in-world document it is not entirely reliable and its terminology is likely local to southern Ralios.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/xeotam-dialogues/

35 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I was just reading Temples and Towers (and you have a new review added, @M Helsdon, because it's really good and astonishing value for money). Any chance of making some of the images and floorplans from that available as JC-permitted art as well?

I hadn't considered this - and may not have the originals.

12 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Not in the bundled art packs... no text just pics. Could not find anything in the text of the main documents credit page.

The PDFs say: 

Permission is granted to purchasers to use these illustrations in Jonstown Compendium publications (with a credit to the artist), and to GMs and players solely for their own use in handouts and character sheets, but not for wider publication. The labels can be removed, and the images reduced in size, but no other changes can be made for publication without permission.
A free copy of any Jonstown Compendium publication using this artwork, whilst not mandatory, would be appreciated.

12 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

What license does that come with....personal use only? JC use if credited?

I don't recall. Should be stated inside.

Suspect that the haze of dust and water vapor will limit visibility to about 50km save on very clear dry still days. However, there may be magical factors so that sacred mountains are visible on the related holy days.

2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

It does appear Martins are gone.

Now free with 'Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass'.

31 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I think of mermaids and srlkies as oceanic beings.

Orlanthi and his kin slew all the Manthi merfolk in the inland waters during the Gods War.

27 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sorry I missed toy at Dragonmeet.

You missed the JC meetup there?

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

Any news on a possible publishing date? I try to order a couple of books at the same time to save money on shipping.

Waiting on art, so some time in the first quarter next year.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

So how does watching the Blue Streak fall into Magasta's Pool give any clue to when the next passage is going to happen?

What passage? Her next climb and fall?

After the Blue Streak falls, you know there will be a low tide for about a day (steersmen know when Lorion will be in the east), and then when she starts to climb, the tide will rise for at least a day. You know the maximum the tide can rise to by the highest high tide mark and by the regular cycle of the Red Moon.

Tubs have the advantage that they can draft beach and load and unload in a matter of hours, so they are less liable to be affected by the tides.

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Blue Streak is visible only during the plummet, which is when the tides run out. During her climb, Annilla remains invisible. You know that it will return to the far side of the Sky Dome when Lorion crosses the Gate of Dawn, but you don't know how fast she will rise.

Yes I know. 

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There you have a term bound to confuse non-native speakers in this context (and presumably some native speakers too).

Fortunately the illustration shows one being used without requiring the use of nautical terminology. 

It is a little difficult to avoid using nautical terminology when writing about nautical matters.

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Would sailors rig up a beam from two logs to lift heavy cargo items across the railing?

Tubs were loaded and unloaded by hand, so setting up a frame to lift cargo wasn't necessary. 

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Which begs the question how well the sailors can predict the tides, especially the Annilla tides (as the effects of Storm and the "Red Moon" are rather predictable).

By observing the Blue Streak, and seeing the relative position of the last high mark and the sea level. Down to experience and observation.

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Shelter from wave action is dependent on the tides and shifts in the wind.

Which is why bays and lagoons with relatively narrow mouths are ideal harbor sites, especially if in a position sheltered from the prevailing wind.

Draft beaching was historically used in the Mediterranean, Baltic, and on the British coast at places like Hengistbury Head (which has been used as a harbor site from the Bronze Age and probably even further back).