M Helsdon

I've been trawling through all the material I have, and so far as I can determine, Tarsh exports an agricultural surplus, but I cannot find anything that suggests this is because of a lack of supply in Peloria. The KoS reference might highlight a famine, but the nature of the reference suggests this was an event worthy of note, which suggests it wasn't the norm. It's like reading the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, where the chroniclers record unusual or major events, but not the everyday. Pondering this, and doing more research as resulted in an addition to my tome... Logistics: Tarsh For decades, Tarsh exported grain down-river to Peloria from its capital, Furthest. Much of this surplus was from Kordros Island, the breadbasket of Tarsh, its rich dark loam supporting the intensive agriculture of slave-worked estates and orchards. The produce of the island also fulfilled a significant portion of that required to support Lunar supply lines into Dragon Pass and Prax. From 1627, the escalating civil war denies the harvests of Kordros to the royalist faction; the island is the political center of the rebel Fazzurites. In subsequent years, the island will become a major supply center for the Sartarite counter-invasion of southern Peloria, utilizing the Oslir as a supply conduit.

As the suffix alio seems to mean 'little' in several Pelorian dialects/languages, Yurmalio might translate as Little Eurmal...

I was lucky enough to recently acquire hardcopies of two issues of the New Lolon Gospel; they are an interesting read, and present a mythos satisfyingly removed from both the Solar and Storm ideologies.

Indeed. I have been wondering for some time just what Joerg is arguing about. Um, a vague reference to starving peasants during the reign of Moirades, and the export of an agricultural surplus doesn't indicate a Pelorian reliance upon Tarshite grain. Instead it probably reflects a different growing and harvesting period due to climate and altitude (and myth). Such variation can drive commercial opportunities. There's likely to be a wide variation in growing and harvesting within Dragon Pass, due to terrain and altitude. In fact, the date of the harvest might vary by weeks across a relatively small area. ???

Um , no. The GtG says nothing about Tarsh being a major source of food for lowland Peloria; it simply states The river is navigable as far south as Furthest. This has relevance for Lunar logistical military supply for operations in the south.

About two centuries prior to Brennus' raid on Rome, if the semi-mythical sources can be believed. And his people vanish from history a century or so later. It's unclear exactly where the Cimbri and Teutones originated from. The usual pressures: climate, overpopulation and pressure from neighbors are likely causes of migration attempts. Um, the Elbe flows into the sea just to the west of Jutland, and the Saxons tended to be placed just south of the lower Elbe, not a very significant distance away. For that matter, by the Medieval period, some centuries later, the Duchy of Saxony wasn't exactly geographically distant, so a very slow short-range migration, due no doubt, to pressure from the east. None of the 'Germanic' peoples were particularly sophisticated in comparison, say, with the Heortlanders, who at least had urban centers. Really? The Galatians were invited by Nicomedes I of Bithynia to fight on his side in a dynastic struggle. They survived that, for a time, and eventually lost their identity/were submerged within the general population. You are driving this thread way off topic.

The Noble Brothers The defenders of Ernalda and Nochet, led by Irillo are worshipped at the Noble Brothers Temple in Nochet. Irillo: He fought in the Last Royal Betrayal, a major battle of the Sword and Helm War ancient feud which destroyed the Kodigvari and the unity of the Vingkotlings. He managed to survive and made his way back home because his sister-in-law came from the land in which the battle was fought. Irillo defended the Grandmothers when Rastagar, the King of the Vingkotlings threatened them and was killed, but later returned as a dead man offering to defend Nochet. Deresagar: A son of Argan Argar, and patron of spearmen. Nolerianmar: A son of Elmal, and god of horsemen. Harasarl: Beloved Sarl, patron of warriors who fight in the style of the Orlanthi. He is said to defend Nochet from Orlanth, but is an aspect of the god acceptable to the Esrolian Grandmothers. Helamakt: The Swordsman, he is the Fighting Storm who uses his winds to fight for him: Killer Rain Gale as his Swordthane; Blinding Shadow as his Shieldthane; Searing Bolt as his Spearthane; Falling Wind as his Backboy. Kalavan: A son of Veskarthan who fights with a flaming spear. Tenderos: The Copper Warrior. Tersh: A god of archery. Yelmalio: Although the Esrolians revile Yelmalio for events that occurred in the Second Age, and know that Elmal is the rightful Sun God, he remains one of the Noble Brothers. There is no tradition of Sun Dome phalanxes in Esrolia.

Too long ago. I seriously doubt that a group of Yelmalions survived in Nochet that long.

I'd be wary of using it as a source of economic data. You seem to be confusing Brennus with Bellovesus. Brennus lead a raid, but he didn't settle. Bellovesus may be entirely mythical. Angles and Saxons in Germania isn't exactly a migration... Modern genetic studies of the modern inhabitants of the British Isles. There is a fairly distinct divide predating the Danelaw, but between 'Continental' ancestry and 'Iberian'. Mass migrations were a feature of the infamous belief in Völkerwanderung, but it doesn't really apply prior to the climate changes of the 4th-5th century, as most migrations prior to that were quite small and often unsuccessful. That of the Galatians was by invitation, so isn't a good example, and they were defeated by the Seleucid king Antiochus I. After that they survived, more or less, until the Romans arrived, a few centuries later.

No, the site was many tens of miles to the north west in Solthon Vale. Improbable. The Grandmothers utterly destroyed the cult of Yelmalio in Esrolia centuries ago.

Its name of Little Vanntar suggests a very close link with the relatively new Yelmalion statelet in Sartar.

The Pelorian lowland river valleys are the site of extensive agriculture, not unlike that in Mesopotamia before the Mongols destroyed the irrigation system. I fear you are getting your Brennus mixed up. The Brennus who attacked Rome was engaged in what was effectively a massive raid, not a migration. The later Brennus who was one of the leaders an attempted migration into Greece committed suicide after his migration turned into a raid which had to retreat. Some of 'his' followers formed a small kingdom, Tylis, but it didn't last very long. Um. No. If you consult recent authorities, you'll find that climate change, rising sea levels, and enemies from the interior were all contributing factors. And recent genetic studies find a very shallow footprint of Saxons and Angles in England; the Danes left a deeper footprint. Instead, it seems that a relatively small number consisting of a new elite moved over, and many Britons turned Saxon in culture and language because of the economic and political collapse of the Romano-British state. And again, climate played a significant role.

Precisely. The Lunar supply lines into the south are fairly limited; moving sufficient materiel by land and river that far was supremely difficult. Without local supply, the Holy Country and the Zola Fel valley are at the very limits of supply. The Provinces are more than just Tarsh, which lies at the end of the major transit route into the empire; there's a great deal of productive land in the river valleys of the Provinces. The Great Winter and the nomad invasion of Oraya would have reduced supply into the Heartlands, but given that the river valleys of Peloria are heavily populated by rural Lodrilli farmers, the impact on the Heartlands wouldn't be as bad as you assume. The real world mass migrations often ended badly for the tribes, as their logistical infrastructure is non-existent, and compared with state military power, their forces were poorly armed, poorly disciplined, and poorly trained. They only succeeded when the state was already in a weakened condition. The Cimbri, Teutones, Ambrones, Marcomanni and Quadi, and the tribes that became the Goths all fared very badly against the Romans when they were at their height. Only centuries later, due to political and economic factors (possibly driven by severe climate change in the 4th to 5th century AD driven by the changes in North Atlantic Oscillation) did the barbarians overrun the borders. In 376 AD the Gothic peoples begged for permission to cross into the Roman Empire, but the empire couldn't feed them, leading to revolts, the sack of Rome, the collapse of Roman hegemony in the West, and tribal kingdoms being carved out in Gaul, Thrace, Iberia, North Africa and Italy, though several didn't survive the subsequent counter-attack by the Roman East. Migrating tribes who can't seize crops and herds are rapidly in a very weak state, which is why the Goths begged entrance into the empire, because the Huns were rapidly encroaching their eastern flank. Lack of crops to raise or seize rapidly leads to starvation. Agricultural tribal people in migration often simply disappear from history.

Nochet was absolutely essential for Lunar military operations in the south, the failure to take the city, and the Dragonrise, were the reason why Lunar military power went into an abrupt decline. Both Karse and Nochet were on the very limits (if not beyond them) of Lunar supply lines.

Alexander was able to exploit the sophisticated Persian logistics infrastructure, effectively taking it over as he won battles and rolled into new territories. Even allowing for the usual exaggeration, in the first Persian invasion of Greece, the Persians had sent many tens of thousands (ancient sources claim up to two hundred thousand) into Greece, deploying an even larger force in their second invasion of Greece (claimed to be around half a million). Even if the claimed numbers are reduced by moving the decimal point, an army of twenty thousand or fifty thousand requires an elaborate system of supply, for the four essentials: food, fodder, firewood and water. Even if only most of the food and half the fodder was transported, that still requires a major system of depots, supply ships, and staging areas. Alexander was fortunate that in many instances the local authorities rapidly submitted ahead of his line of march, and didn't burn the supplies held in the granaries and depots. If the Persian governmental system hadn't unraveled so quickly, he would have been in dire straits. For Glorantha, something similar can be seen as the Lunar supply and staging center at Alda-Chur was captured by Argrath, and then Tarsh first went into civil war and then joined him, meaning that all the Lunar logistics system along the Oslir became vulnerable.

True, but I'm wary of going into too much detail, as Gloranthans won't consider calories, vitamins and trace elements, all of which are important in the modern world. From what I've been able to research most animals provide approximately 40-55% of their weight in edible meat, if butchered correctly; herd men and oxen are exceptions (humans aren't very good meat sources, and oxen have been bred domestically to increase yield). One animal I missed out in the list was the rhino - living weight 3500-4500 lbs. edible meat probably about 45% because of the weight and thickness of the hide.

For something boring (logistics) I've been attempting to define how much meat Praxian animals (and others) provide. Any comments? Living Weight (lbs.) Edible Meat (lbs.) Bison 1100-2000 615-1100 Bolo-Lizard 300-500 140-230 Herd Man 145 50-65 High Llama 1500-2000 400-600 Horse 900-1300 400-585 Impala 150-200 60-110 Ostrich 250-350 130-180 Ox 800-2000 488-1220 Pig 90-150 67-112 Sable 800-1000 400-500 Sheep 66-100 36-55 Tusker 900 400-495 Zebra 770-990 400-580

There are quite a number of Viking-age wrecks, some perhaps sunk intentionally, others sinking due to bad weather, or sea conditions. See Archaeology and the Social History of Ships for details. There are good reasons why the longships with a low freeboard were replaced over time with more seaworthy vessels: increased cargo capacity, improved seaworthiness. In 876 the Viking ‘ship army’ from East Anglia was supposed to rendezvous with a ‘land army’ near Exeter but met with a 'great storm' at sea, and many of the ships were lost. The 'land army' was caught and effectively besieged by Alfred and forced to make terms. These ships, whilst flexible, were at risk in heavy seas and bad weather. Esrolian ships are apparently carvel-built, with a shell of planks held together with pegged mortise-and-tenon joints forming the hull built up from the keel and stem- and stern-posts, with the internal ribbing then fitted to this hull to reinforce it. This type of ship is suitable for relatively calm waters, but not so reliable for ocean travel. The Phoenicians, did, of course, sail such ships into the Atlantic (and possibly circumnavigated Africa) but they took coastal routes, and sailed only in the safest seasons.

Well caught, though I believe the deadline is passed. Explained on page 81 as a variant of Sramak.

The books by the late Bjorn Landstrom (The Quest for India, The Ship) are an excellent reference for ships. Here we see an Esrolian merchant ship being repaired somewhere on the east coast of the Mirrorsea.

Not enough to feed an army of any significant size. If you are talking about a Dark Ages 'army' (which from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles) could be less than a hundred men, possibly only thirty, then foraging will suffice. However, if your army consists of regiments of a thousand soldiers, or five hundred troopers and mounts, foraging before the harvest is in, is insufficient. Men and horses in those numbers require significant food and water, and things that often get forgotten, like firewood. Nomadic 'armies' are subject to very different constraints to a state army. Sun ripen won't help at all (has to be cast in Spring to affect the later harvest). True, and is why societies in central Genertela with a standing army have a massive advantage over volunteer militia armies (freedom of a longer campaigning season, plus, of course, the usual benefits of professional over amateur). An Orlanthi weaponthane may have armor and experience equivalent to a Lunar Centurion, but his warband won't be as large, as well-equipped, or as well-trained as the Centurion's company. Having a large number of servants and other camp followers increases the logistics load, and an army in the field is rarely in any but temporary camps. It doesn't work on campaign, unless your campaign only takes you two or three day's travel from home, and you are engaged in a hit-and-run raid. That's why, at times, the Macedonians shed themselves of the servants, wives, children, etc. because they slow down an army, and have to be fed. By the time the army reached India, the number of the followers had increased again, and they suffered most in the disastrous march through (ahem) Carmania, when his logistical planning failed. The fleet was supposed to drop off supplies along the line of march along the coast, but the Macedonians didn't know about the effect of the monsoon (their Indian 'hosts' doubtless neglected to tell them) and so Nearchus' fleet couldn't sail, and only met up with the survivors of the army in Gedrosia, after tens of thousands had died during the march through the desert. It's the one example where Alexander's genius (or that of his generals) for logistics failed. Once in Persia, the Macedonians benefited from the infrastructure of the Persian Empire (roads, depots, postal system) much of which, in Mesopotamia, the Persians inherited from the Assyrians. Alexander made use of this infrastructure, and his campaigns were mostly based on the availability of supply. None of this infrastructure was in place in Carmania, because it was a virtually uninhabited wasteland. If you study a map of the Lunar Empire, as I have, the logistical infrastructure is very clearly in place, and strongly aided by the Oslir. Once the Lunar forces crossed the continental divide, their logistical problems became more difficult, which is why the failure of the political alliance with Nochet was a major factor in their defeat.

My speculations... Disease spirits are often invisible but when they manifest look like distorted gray figures with skeletal limbs and gaping empty orifices. Rarely useful in battle, they can infect troops in camp, weakening units with infection and disease. These spirits seem to be drawn to large concentrations of people embodying the Death Rune, making them a danger to temporary military encampments which rarely have the defenses of a permanent camp. ---------------- When armies of different cultures clash, enemy dead may be left to decay, especially in enemy territory, or mutilated or despoiled. Hands or heads might be taken to allow a counting of the dead, and then left to rot. Often piles of corpses attract disease spirits and ghouls, in addition to any unquiet ghosts.

Logistics: Foraging A well-farmed countryside can sustain a modestly sized army passing through. However, supplying an army by foraging requires organization and planning – to rely upon foraging for a significant period can lead to disaster as the army runs out of food. The season also affects the viability of foraging, as the primary campaigning season coincides with the growing season. If the enemy elects to ravage the territory through which an army must travel, then this deprives it of the opportunity for foraging and requisitioning supplies. The simplest method is the firing of fields and the burning of granaries, at the cost of starving the populace. In addition to gathering supplies, foragers can have an intelligence function as scouts, but if captured themselves can reveal information to the enemy. Foraging sometimes means seeking fodder for mounts and transport animals, but more broadly includes obtaining water, gathering wood for fires and the palisades of encampments, and foodstuffs such as animals and grain. In some instances, foraging parties must stop to harvest crops from the fields or mow fodder for their animals, which requires time and resources. Taking from civilian granaries and other storehouses after the harvest is far easier. Foraging can seriously reduce the rate of march for an army, even when mounted parties are sent ahead. It is impractical for an army on a forced march to rely upon obtaining supplies from the countryside it is traveling through. Most armies attempt to forage only one day in four, because of the inherent delays in finding and obtaining provisions. Cavalry scouts may be sent out to find a source of supplies well in advance of the main army. Even in friendly territory peasants and farmers may baulk at their crops and animals being requisitioned. Before harvest there is rarely a surplus to be commandeered or seized. Outside the large estates, many farms operate at or near a subsistence level, and hunger before harvest is not uncommon. In unfriendly territory, pillaging is more likely, with provisions being seized, and with a high likelihood of the destruction of property and young women and children being carried off as slaves. Plundering is usually an act of individual soldiers, but may also occur systematically at the level of regiments and armies, with the booty being redistributed by the quartermasters. For those suffering such foraging the distinction is unimportant. When news comes of approaching troops many communities and farms seek to hide their provisions and valuables. Foraging becomes increasingly difficult if an army is stationary in an encampment or conducting a siege. Food and fodder must be obtained from increasingly distant sources. Supply lines become stretched and increasingly vulnerable. Disease, thirst and starvation are often greater foes to an army than its enemy. An army spending too long in one place without adequate hygiene and supplies will crumble as its manpower succumb and die. Basic hygiene and healing magics will delay this. Logistics: Water Adequate supplies of potable water are essential. An army consumes massive quantities of water, which must be obtained from wells, springs, streams and rivers. Village and oasis wells take effort and time to lift sufficient water to the surface to supply even a small force. Similarly, springs provide only limited quantities. Water flowing in rivers is far more accessible as large numbers of men and animals can simultaneously quench their thirst. The Orlanthi can summon clouds and rain, but this is little more than a temporary solution. Rain can be caught in helmets and buckets but is rarely adequate for a large body of troops, especially if they include any cavalry. Crossing tracts of land with little or no water places major stresses upon an army.

Most civilized Gloranthan military technology (at least in central Genertela) is roughly equivalent to that of the 3rd or 4th Century BC. The Persian Empire, Alexander the Great, and his Successors all had relatively complex logistical systems, reliant upon roads, and depots. An army of that era of any size simply couldn't survive by foraging or relying upon independent sutlers turning up at convenient times (the problems encountered by the Ten Thousand during their long retreat provides ample illustration of the difficulties involved). Given that the Lunar Army has close parallels with the Persian and the Macedonian armies, it will require similar forms of supply. Without it, no major force can operate more than sixty miles or so from its home base. Central Genertela is 'Bronze Age' because bronze is more common than iron (once smelting techniques were developed, the opposite is true in our world) and because it closely mirrors the sort of world most Bronze Age cultures believed they inhabited. The apparent military technologies (hoplite phalanxes, cataphracti etc.) are all early to middle Iron Age, and the necessary logistic would be as well.

I have a great deal on logistics, ranging from what an infantryman requires, to speculations upon high level Lunar logistics. I'm not certain if I am at liberty to share the material...