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Bohemond last won the day on November 2

Bohemond had the most liked content!

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About Bohemond

  • Rank
    Advanced Member


  • RPG Biography
    I've been playing RPGs since I was 8, in 1975. My older brother discovered Glorantha in 1981, and I've been playing it ever since
  • Current games
    The Orlmarth Campaign
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  • Blurb
    My blog, An Historian Goes to the Movies, at aelarsen.wordpress.com, deals with film and movie from the perspective of an academic historian.

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  1. Bohemond

    Three New Stars, Three New Gods?

    Well, there is already a Light Earth deity for men with a woman's soul--Nandan. Presumably Nandani tend to the Earth/Harmony/Life combo that Ernalda has and thus are less likely to be warriors and more likely to pursue 'Another Way' solutions like Ernalda does. I like the idea of Barntar as the male parallel to Vinga (men with Earth souls) but there seems to be a sense that he's a Storm tribe member, not an Earth tribe member, and that his magic is Air not Earth.
  2. Bohemond


    If the defeat was substantial, I would suggest a Lingering Penalty to his ability to frenzy or something comparable--he's been 'tamed' and needs to recover the wild side of himself.
  3. Bohemond


    I finally had time to sit down and sketch out the rough outlines for a Minotauros hero quest. Minotauros "When he grew, he became strong and wild, so wild his mother could not control him. So he left her. At first, he went wherever he wanted and did whatever he wished. He trampled down buildings and knocked over fences. The he met the Stranger. The Stranger sought to kill Minotauros, but Minotauros was too powerful. He defeated the Stranger and continued his roaming. When Barntar heard about a young bull that roamed freely, he wanted Minotauros for his plow-team. So he confronted Minotauros and wrestled with him to tame him. They wrestled for a day and a night, knocking down trees and kicking over hills. Everything fled them. But finally, Minotauros exhausted Barntar and shook his head so violently that Barntar flew across a nearby mountain and never bothered him again. Then he saw Uralda, the Great Cow, who was lovelier than all other cows. She invited him to couple with her, and so they did. Then she said, “Follow me, my bull, and I will give you a good home.” But he saw that following her was just another way to be tamed, and he refused. The bulls he sired on her have always been rowdy and untamable. Finally, he met his father, the Storm Bull. His father looked at him and laughed. That enraged Minotauros, who charged his father. But the Storm Bull was stronger than Minotauros. Not matter how hard he tried, he could not defeat his father. Finally he lay on the ground, exhausted. The Storm Bull roared with laughter, shaking ground for miles around. “This is my son!” he bellowed. “He is fearsome and not to be tamed! He will do as he pleases!” And Minotauros realized that his father was not laughing at him, but laughing out of pride. His father picked him up and embraced him. “Go now, my son, and do what you wish. No one will ever be able to make you do anything.” The key idea here is that Minotauros needs to demonstrate that he is his father's son, so that the quest is about proving that the quester is a true son of Urox. The quest is short, having only four normal stations, but they can come in any order, and failure in any of the first three knocks the quester out of the myth (since he stays where he is and never meets Urox). That explains why Uroxi with living horns aren't common. The Stranger can be almost any enemy except Chaos. Sometimes Barntar wagers something to Minotauros in a contest where losing results in joining Barntar's plow team. Unlike the first two stations, Uralda cannot be defeated with strength or combat. As a result, this is the station where most Uroxi are defeated. The Urox station doesn't involve actually defeating Urox. Rather it involves enduring until the quester has impressed Urox. The quest is most commonly performed to gain magical bull's horns. These automatically grant a bonus to social interactions with other Uroxi and minotaurs. But it can also be done to force someone to acknowledge paternity or another relationship or to forcibly 'adopt yourself' into someone's family or to enter in an alliance with minotaurs. Any thoughts/suggestions?
  4. Bohemond

    Three New Stars, Three New Gods?

    I really like the idea of Baroshi as a cult for men with the Earth Rune, making him something like the Earth version of Vinga. Whereas Nandan is for men called to Ernalda, Baroshi is for men called to the Dark Earth. Perhaps if he's one of the Three Stars, more boys start being born with Earth rune souls.
  5. Bohemond

    Greg Stafford Condolence Thread

    I first discovered Glorantha around 1980, when I was about 12 or 13. I loved it and gave up D&D entirely on the spot. For me, Glorantha is hands down the best fantasy world ever created and no matter what other games I play, I always come back to it. I never met you, Mr Stafford, but you brought real light into my life. I have no doubt that at some future date, when gaming has true need of your creativity, someone will perform the Lightbringers’ Quest to return you to us.
  6. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    That's great if we're all Bronze Age people just living our lives. But we're not. We're 21st century people playing a game. The kind of stories we choose to tell when we game have impacts on us and how we think about our lives and our world. Telling misogynistic stories encourages misogyny.
  7. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    I don't see how this is an issue of Game Mechanics at all. I'm entirely concerned with the myth as it's written and how players are likely to respond to it. Yes, myths are questable and, as I say toward the end of that post, I'd like to see more myths that are questable from the feminine perspective, but I'm not really looking at how we translate the Wooing of Ernalda into the mechanics of a scenario. What I mean by 'framing' is that the story is not presented to the reader as an example of how Orlanth made a mistake and then later owned up to it (which is what I mean by 'screwing up'). There isn't an obvious moral here that 'Orlanth realized that he was abusing Ernalda and changed his ways'. Rather, the most obvious moral that I think one is likely to extract from this story is 'Yell at the woman you're interested in until she submits to you.' Even if we read it from the Ernaldan perspective, the moral seems to be 'Submit to a man's abuse until he marries you and then you'll have some control.'
  8. Bohemond

    About slavery

    One major component of slavery in most real world societies has to do with the degree to which slaves experience Social Death. Social Death means that the slave is no longer regarded as a human being in social terms--they do not receive the normal polite treatment people receive, they may be humiliated by not receiving proper clothing or food, they may lose their names, they may not be accorded the normal benefits of religion, and so on. In Graeco-Roman society, slaves were often referred to as if they were mere extensions of the owner's body. Republican Rome recognized two categories of slave, servi who experienced near complete social death and who, if freed, entered into a new social identity as a freedman/woman; and nexi (usually debt slaves) who did not experience full social death and who, when freed, returned to their previous social status. Nexum was abandoned after a scandal in which a nexus slave was forced to sexually service his owner---the idea that a man who was still in some sense a citizen could be used sexually was deemed unacceptable, so the entire practice of temporary debt slavery was legally abandoned. So I think to some extent the question this thread is looking at deals with the question of social death, but read through the magical lens of Glorantha. Does a slave suffer full social death in a particular Gloranthan culture? Sartarite thralls don't seem to--they seem to have at least some limited membership in the clan that owns them. They participate in at least some of the rituals of the clan and probably have some basic legal rights in terms of how they are treated--Babs Gor isn't going to allow female thralls to be raped, for example. But Lunar slaves probably do. The real world cultures that the Lunars are modeled on generally inflicted social death on most slaves, and plantation slavery generally seems to require a high degree of social death as a tool to keep the slaves in line. But in Glorantha, since ritual tends to pervade everything that happens, it's likely that the Lunars have ritual ways to reinforce Social Death. So perhaps there is a religious ritual that Lunar slaves are subjected to that essentially 'kills' them to their god. In other words, when Hengist is enslaved at a slave farm, he undergoes a ritual in which he is 'killed'. The effect of the ritual is that Orlanth is tricked into regarding Hengist as having died, meaning that Hengist can no longer contact Orlanth during the normal rituals, cannot access his runes for magical purposes, and so on. If asked through divination, Orlanth says that Hengist is dead. This is probably either Yanafali or Xaroni magic, a specialized form of Sever Spirit. Hengist can still be initiated into new cults, if he's permitted that option, so he's pushed into the cult of Danfive Xaron, a big part of whose function is to control problematic people like Sartarite slaves.
  9. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    That's a good point. I agree. Making that sort of detail more explicit would help address the issue, especially if it were included in the myth. (As a side note, I said I'm laying the groundwork for a Gloranthan LARP. Having an actual marriage ceremony that PCs could enact at some point is the sort of detail that I would love to see developed.)
  10. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    The longer I think about this particular myth, I think the issue is that it's not framed very clearly. Most Gloranthan myths establish a cultural norm or value for the people who tell it. Orlanth doing X mythically is a statement that what Orlanth did is proper. He is the lawgiver for the Heortling people, after all. But there's this unusual element to some of Orlanth's myths that involve him screwing up and fixing what he broke--the slaying of Yelm is the obvious example. That serves to establish a cultural norm that men who screw up correct their mistake. For players, the myths help set the cultural values that they're expected to model in the game (although Lord knows players are famous for doing the 'weird' thing that no one else in the game culture would actually do). But nothing in this myth as it's written frames Orlanth's actions as a mistake. At no point does he apologize to Ernalda for mistreating her. The last verse of the poem that he speaks continues to accuse her of "tricks" and "deceit". In fact, Ernalda's last words in the myth "I am weak. I need help. I am yours." continue the frame for their interactions that Orlanth establishes at the start. The myth is introduced as simply "an entertaining tale", not as a myth in which Orlanth screws up, learns a lesson, and makes right what he has broken. The only hint that the reader is actually supposed to read the myth from Ernalda's perspective is the line in the last paragraph that Orlanth "accepted his fate", (a frame that has a long history in the real world as signaling a misogynist notion that marriage is a bad thing--think of all those 50s jokes about wives as 'the ball and chain'). There's a statement that he learns his wife's "sweet secrets", but I don't think that that makes clear that he's seen the error of his ways. He doesn't, for example, beg Ernalda's forgiveness the way he apologizes to Yelm in the Underworld. The idea that Orlanth moves from a stormy, violent, misogynist view of love and marriage to an earthy, calm, feminist view of seeing his wife as his equal is great. And If Greg is trying to offer an alternative model for masculinity here, that's a wonderful thing. But the myth as it's framed for us doesn't give readers many sign-posts that you're supposed to see it as falling into the 'Orlanth screws up and fixes what he broke' category. If you don't already know that that's a key element of Orlanth's mythic arc, I don't think you're going to spot it here (and even if you do know that, I think you may miss it). If you're a teenage/early 20s guy (and let's be honest, a sizable chunk of all gamers fall into that category), I think this myth is going to do the exact opposite--it's going to affirm Orlanth's toxic masculinity as normative for PCs and players. The reason I think it's important to discuss this is that gaming (among many other facets of nerd culture) has always had a serious problem with toxic masculinity and undervaluing women's perspectives--think about the harsh pushback during the whole Gamergate incident and the death threats that Anita Sarkesian received for just pointing out the misogyny in video games. One of the things I love about Glorantha is that as it's evolved, it's done a much better job of trying to incorporate women's perspectives than most other gaming systems I know. But I think it still struggles to really present the feminine perspective as a truly viable alternative.To the best of my knowledge, there's never been a published scenario specifically written for an Ernaldan PC and built around the 'other way' of resolving the problem. (Even These Women Need Help is written from the male perspective.) The Ernalda and Uralda quests (and the CA quest, although it's not specifically for women) in KoDP are pretty much the only written-up heroquests that present the feminine perspective as a tool for problem-solving. The Peace-Weaving sequence in Eleven Lights does present the other way, but it's just one piece of a larger scenario. If Sartarites really see women as equal to men, there should be more scenarios to reflect that. (But here I'm getting into a whole different facet of the issue than the topic of this thread--I just wanted to show that I think the problem is wider than just one poorly-written myth.) So instead of offering a myth that only hints that the Ernaldan perspective is better, why not simply have the myth come right out and say that Orlanth's initial approach was wrong and Ernalda taught him a better way to think about love and sex? Why should the women's perspective be hidden away as a sly wink?
  11. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    I've had NUMEROUS conversations with gamer women about sexism and rape culture in gaming. It's not that women can't handle it. It's that they shouldn't have to handle it unless they explicitly say they want to. Given that rape is an ever-present real-world issue that most women live with (in the form of having to actually plan out how to stay safe at parties and bars and heading home from work, etc), most women I know don't want it to be an issue that comes up in their gaming.
  12. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    That is a really good suggestion. Ragnaglar is basically the god of uncontrollable sexual urges, so it would make sense that he was the one urging Orlanth to be aggressive. And it would offer an indication that Orlanth's behavior is problematic, not normative.
  13. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    "nobody is claiming that the storm gods are "good guys". " Given that most PCs (the males at least) gravitate toward Storm Gods--Orlanth in all his incarnations, Urox, Humakt, maybe Odayla and Yinkin, I'm pretty sure a large segment of the player base sees Orlanth and his kin as the good guys. And the game has generally taken an Anti-Lunar stance, which positions the Red Goddess' main opponent, Orlanth, as the hero in the meta-story.
  14. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    Yes. But we're 21st century people operating in a 21st century milieu. 21st century players, especially female players, may very well find this myth to be a real problem. Just because rape was a common occurrence in the ancient world doesn't mean it should get a pass in our fictional story-setting. There's nothing in this myth itself that identifies what Orlanth does to Ernalda to be a mistake that he grows past, which means that it's easy to read this myth as essentially championing Orlanth's behavior rather than undermining it. I'm very familiar with Glorantha (being playing in it since 1980 or so), including the whole 'Orlanth fixes his mistakes' thing and the idea that Ernalda has more control that it seems, and neither of those ideas emerged for me as I read through the myth a good dozen times. If I missed it, I'm pretty sure a whole lot of other people will miss it too. As I'm sure we're all aware, table-top gaming has a long history of not being very friendly to female players. Glorantha is, I think, a friendlier game world for women than a lot of the alternatives, but I know a couple of women who find the highly-gendered nature of Glorantha pretty uncomfortable, and a myth like this strikes me as likely to trigger female players who have experienced domestic violence or rape. I'm in the early stages of planning a large-scale Sartar LARP that will probably involve a fair number of female players, so I need to be thinking about how a myth like this is going to read to female players.
  15. Bohemond

    Orlanth the Abuser

    Am I the only one who finds the Wooing of Ernalda story (Glorantha Sourcebook, p. 115, but also in Heortling Mythology) incredibly creepy? Let's break this down. According to the myth, Orlanth goes to Ernalda and demands her earth from her. She agrees to a trade (earth for bullroarer), but when he goes back home, his brothers make fun of him. So he goes back to Ernalda and vehemently insults her for humiliating her (which she hasn't actually done). He threatens to attack her, so she calms him down by returning the bullroarer and having sex with him. He goes back to his brothers, who again mock him, so he goes back to Ernalda again "In a blind rage" and forces Ernalda to beg for mercy from him. Then he marries her. This looks an awful lot like domestic violence. The boyfriend gets mocked by his male friends for being gentle, so he demonstrates his physical power by attacking his girlfriend, who appeases him with sex and ultimately agrees to marry him because she's afraid to say no. His friends are taunting him into abusing his girlfriend, and he blames her for the fact that his friends are being dicks to him. This is literally exactly how toxic masculinity operates in the real world. I get that this is supposed to be a demonstration of how Earth calms Air. But it reads as a mythic justification for men engaging in violence against women.