Ufnal

I am always a bit dissatisfied with references to real-world religions and religious studies provided as an answer to a Glorantha-specific question, because an ontology and metaphysics presupposed by Eliade seems quite different from what we have in Glorantha (for example, Eliade does speak of one sole divinity and sacrum, while in Glorantha the Runes seem to be the building blocks of reality that can't be easily reduced and relativized). Also, this approach seems to make lots of mythical speculation and identification (who does a name in one mythology represent in the other? Who is on the Gods Wall? Etc.) totally unproductive and pointless. On the other hand, the idea that it's the telling that matters and makes the myth into objective reality is interesting, fun and with much gaming potential - but it seems to run contrary to what I thought is the official stance on how Glorantha works?

I know I tend to come to the forums once in a while to drop another nitpicky question and disappear, and I hope you will forgive me, but I wanted to clearly state a question that seems to have come up in some discussions I've read. What - in Greg's vision and in the current official canon of Glorantha [and perhaps in the older versions/visions of it] - is the "truth status" of God Time entities and events? Is it that there is a "correct" list of beings, names, properties and events (even if non-linear) that got distorted and changed in the mythologies of various peoples? That is, for example, there is a specific being that was the Sun and the Emperor in the Golden Age and a specific thing happened to it, and the differences between Dara Happan, Pentan, Orlanthi, Six Ages Riders etc. versions of the events are just due to (mis)interpretation, propaganda and loyalties? Is it that multiple versions of events are true at the same time, because Gods (and their stories) are the kind of beings who don't have to have one linear history but are composites of many different versions? That is, Yelm could both die and go to Hell, and never really die; both Pamalt, Arachne Solara, Yelm and Orlanth/Ernalda could have coordinated the work on the net that caught the Devil; the answer to the paradox of Many Suns is that the Sun can be many things at once, and a being can both be a Sun and not be a Sun? Is it that the basic runic interactions are true, but how they are interpreted into specific beings and stories depends on who watches them? So the same conflict can involve the Genertelan or Pamaltean pantheon depending on who the heroquester witnessing it is? And the Little Sun can be Yelmalio or Elmal or something else depending on who seeks for it? Perhaps this even changes the very events that exist in the God Time? Is it based on synchronicity, in that there are numerous independent versions of the gods world and the God Time that occured simultaneously and together changed the universe? As in, Pamalt and Arache Solara did their bindings independently at the same time, both Yelmalio and Elmal did similar things and their actions helped achieve the result they achieved etc.? I remember that the defeat of Chaos and the Sunstop were examples of effects brought forward by separate actions in different contexts and parts of the world Or is it just a mystery that a mortal mind cannot comprehend so I should stop trying?

Godbound is a wonderful game that combines modernised OSR mechanics with the spirit, genre and tone of Exalted (semi-divine heroes being [re]born into a diminished world and setting out to change it to their whim). While it's not something that sounds very Glorantha-y, I recently had an idea that this system could be quite useful for a game where PCs are heroes or superheroes, around the high-end of 13th Age Glorantha - for a few reasons: The "Words" system that governs supernatural powers combines a lot of freeform freedom of HQ2 with more constraining mechanics and clear examples of Runequest, and is well suited for mythical magical feats, while the Words themsleves should be easy to reskin into Runes Godbound has systems in place governing how great and permanent changes the hero inflicts on the world around him, which would be very cool to use for a Hero Wars level of setting recomposition The mechanics are quite simple and fast, and well-suited to epic battles, with special simple rules of destroying whole units of mooks with one blow There are rules for gradually becoming a deity, amassing followers and a cult, which could possibly work for an Arkat-type hero, albeit probably with heavy modifications Am I the only one who thinks it sounds interesting? Not sure if I'll be playing it, as I don't feel confident enough to come up with the necessary mechanics modifications, but perhaps someone will take it up for themselves.

I still don't understand the "Made of Everything" phrase. From what I do understand, you are suggesting that some perspectives have access to parts of the Otherworlds that are inaccessible for other perspectives? This makes a lot of sense. From my limited Gloranthan readings I was under the impression that all those perspectives are supposed to be different ways of making sense of the same fundamental Runic reality, and saying that you can see Orlanth as runic interactions but you can't enter a runic interaction's hall and drink its mead seems to make perfect sense under that paradigm. I believe so. There is a difference whether I get my Fiery Horse Spirit by travelling to the Sky to meet Kargazant and receiving a member of his court as an ally, or by finding a Fiery Horse Spirit somewhere "in the wild" and negotiating with it/winning it over. At least for me. How much of that is established "canon" and how much your invention? I don't mean that offensively, just wanted to understand that. Also, I've read very little of RQ and my ideas about Glorantha are mostly KoDP and HQ-based, so this may be why I am finding this a bit confusing.

Yeah, that seems about right for real-world animism, but I am not sure if the point of view of a Praxian or Pentan shaman is that the world is a sapient entity that we are all a part of. Although seeing all the individual things as powerful and sapient (or at least having powerful and sapient spirits within), maybe... But aren't shamans supposed to get their spirits from the abodes of the great spirits of their traditions, and not from the natural world around them? This is an interesting view, but it does seem to focus on the dead and not on the various elemental and conceptual spirits that spirit traditions most often use. I do not get some of the allusions and do not have enough knowlede to understand everything here, I'm afraid. From what I understood, the paradigm has shifted from separate Otherworlds to different Otherworlds being representations of the same reality (there's a picture in some of the books depicting the same view of the Otherworld from a Sorcerous, Theistic and Animistic perspective, isn't there). This is really quite cool, but again - I thought the animists in various Gloranthan media (at least Heroquest ones) were described as more receiving the spirits from their tradition (for example from among the spirits governed by the main spirit of that tradition) than as communing with the spirits of the nature around them and taking them into charms? Soooo the Spirit World is something separate from the Otherworld of Runic entities as seen by the Theists and Sorcerers?

Are beings like, say, Kolat or Oakfed beings of Gods World or of Spirit World?

I can't wrap my head around the Spirit World and magic. As far as I understand, contrary to HQ1 times, the Spirit World, Gods World and Sorcerous World/World of Forms/whatever are actually different perspectives or visions on the same Runic reality of the Otherworld. I get that the "Sorcerous" vision is of Runes as logical, measurable powers, building blocks of Cosmos, that have their properties and interactions and that can be harnessed for magic. I get that the Theist vision presents the confluences of Runic powers as persons and their interactions as mythical stories. But what about the Animistic vision? What kind of perspective on the Runes does it stem from? The idea that "a spirit is something you have" doesn't really help much. I am not even sure whether the spirits used in spirit magic and put into charms are beings of the Otherworld or of this world, and whether the Spirit World that a Shaman enters is the same "level" of reality as the one encountered in Heroquests [which, if I understand correctly, are mainly for theists, even if I'd probably change that in my Glorantha]. I was thinking that maybe the Spirit perspective is viewing the Runic powers as they interact and intermingle with the Middle World, seeing as the Spirits seem to be so much more connected to the mortal world than Gods/Heroes and Sorcerous abstracts. But I am not sure, so I am asking you kind sages for help.

Quick question from someone who's waiting for a non-iPhone version of the game and who has little idea about ancient Peloria - are the Hyalorings here in any way compatible with how Hyalorings are portrayed, say, in Pentmaniac's wondrous blog on Pent?

Question is, whether we ever change them, or just find new interpretations. (Although this way of thinking falls apart when heroes start acquiring their own presence in the world of Gods)

I am a Glorantha novice, but I feel like something in the first post and later posts by the OP doesn't mesh with my feeling of how Glorantha works. It seems too much like the real world - "there is a sun, and each culture interprets it as a different god, and then there's cultural exchange that leads to new entities ascribed to the same celestial phenomenon". I prefer to think that it's less about names and stories being ascribed to abstract phenomena and more about different facets, aspects and faces of entities so complex and vast and beyond understanding that each culture only sees a part of them, a 2D crossection of a 3D or even 4D being. So, it's not that Yelm is later identified with the Emperor - The Sun has always (in part, in one of its facets, seen from a perspective of one layer of its interaction with The Storm) been an Evil Emperor, just as it has always been the Good Emperor and a myriad other things. ...if that makes any sense.

This probably isn't an original thought, as in the decades of Gloranthan speculation someone probably thought of that, but as a semi-noob I wanted to ask you: It's quite obvious that there's a cycle through Ages of conflict between powerful empires (at least in Genertela). However, do you feel it could be pretty much summed up as "Unification vs individual growth"? First Age - Nysalor is a product of a Council wanting to birth a god that would unite them, a god that tries to illuminate and incorporate everyone around it. Arkat is an individual who went through multiple great changes and a private illumination in order to fulfill his private obsession with destroying what he perceived as ultimate evil. Second Age - God Learners wanted to provide a universal mythic framework that would incorporate and make obsolete all the others. EWF cared about personal illumination and/or personal draconic superpower for individual members. [I guess the idea of EWF making one huge dragon kinda screws that bit up?] Third Age - Lunar Empire wants to prove that we are all us. Opposing it are individual heroes who fight amongst each other but whose individual deeds grant them powers to overthrow the Empire. Does that make sense at all? Is it a common (or commonly discredited) theory I never heard of?

I feel I am starting to slip into nitpicking arguments, for which I apologise, so I felt I need to state clearly what my problem is. It might be due to the fact I am an on and off Glorantha enthusiast not a hardcore lore buff, but when thinking about various Gloranthan types of magic I always had it stuck in my head that - whether we treat them as separate supernatural realms [as in older games/older canon/God Learner classifications] or as different ways of looking at the same things, theistic magic is about being something, spiritual is about having something, sorcerous is about knowing something. AFAIR that's how it was portrayed around HQ2, too. Now for me that has always meant there's a great deal of difference in in-universe terms and in roleplaying terms between those worldviews. Sorcerous worldview would be that the world is full of powers that you can research, understand, and using the knowledge you aquire - control and exploit in very specific ways. Theistic worldview would be that the world is full of powerful beings that you can worship, emulate and through that take part in their identity and power. Spiritual worldview would be that the world is full of powerful beings that you can bargain with, contest against, win over and in the process aquire their help (or services of their subordinates, or of pieces of them) by taking them with you and having them help you in specific things. This is how I feel it was portrayed in the (various and fragmentary but mainly based on various HQ editions) things I read and skimmed over the years. This is also, I feel, reflected in HQ rules with the differences between spells, charms and affinities. Therefore when told that the division between theistic and spiritualistic cultures is no longer strong, my reaction was "Cool! So now Pentan chiefs are both striving to worship and emulate Kargzant to become reflections of his power in leading their tribe, AND they petition him for the gift of spirits from his fiery herds in the sky that help them perform their duties and lead/protect the tribe! That's quite cool, gives me great ideas about culture and roleplaying (as different kinds of magic seems to say different things about a person - some say what they are/strive to be, others what they have/managed to aquire - and how they are differentiated and valued within a culture and how they flesh out a character seem like interesting questions) and basically sounds fun. But now some people tell me that inside a particular culture it doesn't much matter whether the magic is spiritual or theistic, as long as it's aquired within that culture's traditions (although @metcalph did mention some interesting stuff such as the Doraddi valuing spirit magic more than rune magic - which is the kind of interesting detail I'm talking about: What does that say about Doraddi? Do they feel that magic you gain by relationships with various other beings is more worthy of respect than magic that you have to give up a piece of your identity for? Do they prefer more specialized magics? etc). Other people tell me that the differences in the acutal magic aquired are not important. And it kinda confuses me, not only by throwing away a distinction I relied on (and that I still find in Glorantha products), but also by doing away with what I consider an element that is enriching for the world of Glorantha, by showing how different ways of perceiving, aquiring and handling power can fit together in one religion and culture. I may be misreading things, misinterpreting things, or just be plain wrong. I think My Glorantha That Varies will be staying the way it was, but I am also interested in The Glorantha As Currently Depicted In The Books And General Fan Consensus, and I am still not 100% sure how it's supposed to look. As far as I understand from this thread, the current trend is that three worlds is more God Learner classification than something people think about in-universe, and that the three worlds as distinguishable ways of seeing and aquiring powers are being phased away and more culture-based view is encouraged? [if so, what is the reason of treating them separately in the mechanics and fluff and stuff? Is that God Learer-y division true in the objective sense but not acknowledged/experienced/cared about by people living in Glorantha?]

But don't the archers themselves care? One of them has to follow the teachings of his god, the other has a relationship with a spirit in his charm. Which makes for much different roleplaying (the theist is supposed to adhere to his god's example and tenent, the spiritist is supposed to take care of his spirit's needs), doesn't it? [otherwise, if there's no difference in the experience of the characters, in the in-world effects, in mechanics etc - why even mention that there are diferent kinds of magic if they are completely interchangeable?] EDIT: Also, why does nobody care whether they are fighting a heroformer (when they can exploit the knowledge of their god to throw them off and make them stop heroforming) or a person [somehow] embodying a spirit (when they can banish a spirit with anti-spirit magics, or negotiate with it, or whatever)?

May I ask why is it wrong? And how is making a horse run faster not a part of a core identity of Kargzant? And, for that matter, why is the core identity of Kargzant more tied to the image of Golden Bow than to his role as the solar leader of the herd, both horse and human? Is using the main names/representation in such a way an official guideline or more your intuition?

OK, fair enough, I'm not sure that's precisely how that works in HQG as-written (what with theistic powers having much wider applications than spells and spirits) but you have the benefit of experience. Still, there seems to be (for me) an in-world difference between having a fiery horse spirit in a charm and having an affinity with a deity that lets you do the stuff that spirit does, and I can't convince myself that people of Glorantha wouldn't see the difference or conceptualize it in any way.

OK, that's all quite well explained, but as far as I know it works better for Runequest (where - as far as I remember, I know very little about it) all the kinds of magic are basically spells. But in Heroquest there is clear difference between being able to use a single spell, being able to command a spirit bound to a charm and being able to emulate a god's powers over a rune - a difference that is visible in how those powers work. Do you think that the Pentans would not differentiate having spirits (which, as far as I understand, are separate beings and not just metaphors for spells) bound to you and releasing them from knowing the proper gestures and words or from performing mythical deeds while basked in godly light?

There's lots of really neat technical detail in the topic, but I still find it interesting how those different types of magic and worship interact. For instance, Tindalos says that it's still true that the types of magic are different and the types of worship, too. AFAIK it's still also true that a spell is something you know, a charm is something you have and a rune affiliation is something you are, if I recall the old phrase correctly. If that's the case then, in my very noobish opinion, there's some very interesting cultural stuff to be done. To show some examples, using Pentmaniac's exceptional Pent blog: A Hyaloring chieftain belonging to the Path of Fire tradition will probably worship Kargzant both in a theistic way and in a spiritual way. But if you think about what different types of magic represent, do you think it'd be proper to say that the power of his spirit magic reflects how much favour he has received from Kargzant the Imperial Sun and his Spirit Herd/how good he is at aquiring the favour of Kargzant's spirits, while his rune magic reflects how closely he imitates and reflects Kargzant's example and holy light? Therefore, a chieftain powerful in rune/theistic magic would be seen as valorous and virtuous, one powerful in spirit magic - as blessed or loved by the Imperial Sun? Would receiving theistic magic from beings in the Path of Hell Tradition be more frowned upon than receiving spirit magic? After all, the charms reflect who you pay homage to, bargain with, receive gifts from - but runic magic reflects your core self and who or what you emulate to receive your powers... Would a being that gives mainly runic and little to no spiritual magic be seen by Pentans as one that demands more personal connection to itself? As miserly or poor, seeing as it gives away little powers to its supplicants? As a loner, not surrounded by a host of lesser spirits?

Thanks for the explanation! However, that still leaves me wondering - I always thought that the division between three types of magic is very much a different way of looking at the world. Does that mean that in current Glorantha those worldviews are getting mixed and treated as complimentary? How does it look from the perspective of a member of the culture? Is it that the beings that give rune magic are more beings you are supposed to emulate, while those that give spirit magic only are the ones that teach about how to interact with the world/give powers (in form of spirits) but are not role models, so to say?

So we know that the Pentans worship both gods and great spirits. But I can't seem to find nor figure out how it works in practice. Is it that some beings are treated as spirits and other as gods? Is it that some people practice spiritual and other theistic magic? Or is spirit and theistic worship mixed freely?

Just to make sure - didn't you mean darkness came out of chaos? Also thanks for the answers! Now I am wondering whether Ernalda-worshipping leaders in Esrolia or women-led Heortling clans are getting their leadership magic from this Queenly aspect of Earth, or from Harmony.

This might be a question answered in a book I have not read, but: Is Ernalda connected in any way to the Mastery rune? There is the aspect of Ernalda the Queen, as far as I understand there are even clans ruled by her priestesses among Orlanthi, yet as far as I understand gods are only connected with three runes, and for Ernalda none of them is Mastery. Does she derive her queenship from a different rune (perhaps Harmony?) and therefore her rule is of different nature than, say, Orlanth's or Yelm's?

Then you are quite good at making things up, as this one tidbit got me hooked on Teshnos ever since. Somehow I didn't catch that Revealed Mythologies had stuff on Teshnos, thank you for pointing that out! I have read HQ Voices but managed to forget about the Homeland part. Still, it seems that there's not that much to find. Were there any fan publications/writeups/blog posts about Teshnos that are worth reading, or should I go and search through the digest/make stuff up for myself?

Hi, I came to those forums to try and find out where I can read more about Teshnos (beside the obvious place, that is Guide to Glorantha). The old "Glorantha. Introduction to the Hero Wars" has very little information, besides the thing that caught my attention the most - that before Sheng Seleris, there were multiple schools of Mysticism in Teshnos, but all other than Chal's way got destroyed in Sheng's invasion. Is there any publication where such things are elaborated upon?