Paid a bod yn dwp

7 hours ago, Jason Durall said:

That is indeed what the Quickstart said. 

I have qualified that prior with the statement that the QS represents a compressed version of the rules that both tried to hit the "normal" level of crunchiness for the system, but also was playable in a short session with new players. It also represents the state of the rules in (IIRC) early February when it was written. At that time, we were tweaking some existing rules. The feedback then was very pro- weapon/shield damage. People liked the inevitable wear and tear on weapons and their gear, and the playtests were very enthusiastic about things like shields being cloven, etc. 

Here's the text from the current iteration of the rules dealing with just these issues: 

Summary of Combat Actions

@Jason Durall Thanks thats really super helpful. These tweaks do appear to make sense, and streamline the combat a little more. interesting to see the most recent iteration of  critical attack damage being "special damage" that ignores armour - Its less to remember but still has a significant effect, and i'm guessing still potential for horrific injuries  I think the move to change damage to weapons to only occur when the dam is greater then the AP is sensible. The way damage is deflected, and also given by a parry weapon, feels right too. Having to make a choice between parry or attack on an SR with a single weapon makes for interesting tactical choices. It also makes shields more significant as a tactical choice as you can parry with the shield and attack with the weapon on the same strike rank. Glad to see multiple parries with a cumulative penalty still in the new rules...which leads me to a couple of questions which haven't quite yet been answered....

1. Is it possible to use parry at a cumulative -20% penalty against attacks from multiple opponents, or is it limited to defending against attacks from a single opponent?

2. Does dodge still follow the rule of rolling separately for each attack from a single source?

3. Can a character use both dodge and parry in a single melee round, as well as a standard attack providing they don’t occur on the same SR?

i) If you are faced with a single opponent with multiple attacks, can you use parry and dodge in the same melee round, alternating with each of the attacks?

ii) If you are faced with multiple attacking opponents, can you use both parry and dodge in the same melee round, alternating with each different attacker?

All that being said its great to see the direction the rules are heading in, thanks so much for the insight 

On 19 June 2017 at 11:08 AM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Delving back into the QS, I found on P7 under "Strike Ranks" that "a parry does not take any strike ranks".

1. If parry is outside of the Strike rank mechanism does this indicate that you can indeed parry and attack on the same strike rank if necessary? If so that is a new departure from RuneQuest classic. 

2. I'm still unclear on whether parries can be used against attacks from multiple sources? My guess is that they can, as the text doesn't mention specifically "from one source", as it does clearly in the case of the Dodge description.

3 . Does Dodge also sit outside the strike rank mechanism? Is it possible to dodge and attack on the same strike rank? or do you loose the attack if you dodge on the same SR? (edit: likewise is it possible to dodge and parry on the same strike rank?)

4. What are the limits to using dodge & parry in a Melee round? When attacks come from multiple sources, is it possible to chose parry against one opponent, and then chose dodge against a second opponent in the same round melee round? This also ties into question 2 in this post - Can parries be used against attacks from different sources in a melee round.

5. If a single attacker has more then 1 attack, is it possible for the defender to chose to alternate between parry and dodge for each different attack from the same attacker?

@Jason Durall is it possible to answer these questions, or is it now a matter of waiting till the launch of the core rules?

Also could you confirm whether the QS is correct in stating that a simple success with a parry against a simple attack success results in the parrying weapon/shield takeing 1hp of damage whether or not the damage exceeds the parrying weapons/shield AP?

Yes be good to open up discussion now that the QS has had a public outing 

The brittleness of weapons feels right for a Bronze Age game, with the use of softer metals. It also feels in keeping with the grittiness of RQ combat. I could see some interesting/unexpected situations in combat because of it.

Trying to parry a great trolls club attack could result in a dramatic scramble, as parrying shield and sword are both smashed as they try to repel the monstrous blows.

Having thought about it, taking a flat 1hp damage to a successful parrying weapon or shield regardless of rolled damage  could actually help speed up play, being less numbers to keep keep track of 

1 minute ago, styopa said:

QS RAW:  Parry Success (vs successful attack) [or special vs special, or crit vs crit]: The attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point.

So it doesn't appear to matter how much damage the attacking weapon would cause - 1 point or 40 points, a successful parry means the attack is parried and the parrying item takes 1ap.

Note that the text highlights the difference between a parrying WEAPON and a parrying SHIELD.  They are treated differently.  

A parrying weapon only blocks as many AP as it has, excess goes on to the defender.  A shield is different: "...When a shield successfully parries a successful attack, the shield loses 1 hit point and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely....".  

Yes, unless there is a crucial omission of text in the QS, that is how it reads - Weapon or shield, will take 1hp of damage regardless of rolled damage on a successful parry vs successful attack. 

I really like the extra dimension that the new Passions and Runes give the game. I've only had a briefish play of the quick start, but it really adds something new to RuneQuest.

I always liked the grittiness of combat in RQ, but the passions and runes combines nicely with that low level crunch feel, to bring a heroic aspect to that grittiness. 

It's also is very immersive, bedding the character into the world of Glorantha 

59 minutes ago, Psullie said:

 

Swords and such have 10 - 12 AP but will break automatically if the rolled damage exceeds the AP. So I imagine weapon smiths doing a fine trade in Sartar

 

Bear in mind that only specials and crits do full damage to parry weapons -  Crits full double damage, and Special is rolled double damage.

Standard hit does just 1 damage to a successful parry weapon ( which I believe it takes even if the damage is below the AP of the weapon)

10 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Paid a bod yn dwp you made me question myself - so I dug out my RQ2 book and check, perhaps this was a house rule after all, the original rules just state (for bows) S/MR which means as many attack as SR allowed. As it takes 5 SR to 'reload' with a DEX of 15+ you would fire on a 1, 6 & 11 at no penalty!

Thanks for checking! That along with the example in the Quack-Start does seem to indicate that the new rules have gone with RQ2 on this particular ruling.

Not sure if this is appropriate for an errata ....

There doesn't appear to be any indication of the range of the PC's ranged weapons. Despite this we have a section on "Range" and its effect on missile weapons effectiveness on p14

2 hours ago, Eric Christian Berg said:

It is explicitly mentioned that you can make multiple attacks with a ranged weapon if you can squeeze it in the 12 strike ranks and no mention is made of needing a high skill. I don't recall anywhere that it said you could make multiple attacks with a melee weapon with high skill.

Ah yes, I thought i had read a hint of that somewhere in the Quick-start. Its in the example on p7 "Multiple Activities outside of Melee". It certainly indicates that multiple Missile fire is possible without having over 100% skill. Sounds similar to RQ2. 

8 minutes ago, Psullie said:

The same counts for bow attacks except that you were allowed two missile attacks to start with at normal chance, if your missile skill was above 100% you would get 1 extra attack (assuming SR available) but all three attacks are at half value.

Thanks - thats interesting I hadn't remembered the specifics of RQ2 missile fire.

The change to parry in the new quick start rules seems a significant departure from the structure of RQ2/3. Being able to parry multiple attacks at a cumulative penalty could indicate that parry is no longer governed by the same split attack/parry rule of RQ2( attacks & parries over 100% could be split to allow for multiple attacks/parries). It all depends on whether parry works against multiple opponents, or is intended to only be effective against attacks from a single opponent. The Quick start rules aren't clear on this. 

It would make sense if parry and dodge were only effective against attacks from one source ( as we know dodge is). If that were the case, both parry & dodge could still be governed by the RQ2 rule of splitting attacks over 100% to defend against attacks from multiple opponents. 

15 minutes ago, styopa said:

The implication of the question is probably melee attacks, but I believe you CAN have multiple attacks a round with below 100% skill if you're using a missile weapon and have enough SR, yes?  

Good point - The QuickStart doesn't seem to mention whether you can fire a missile weapon more then once per round regardless of weapon skill %. Presumably you can if it follows the RQ2 structure?

5 hours ago, Jakob said:

Also, if there's no cumulative penalties for extra dodge rolls, does it mean you can theoretically dodge as many attacks as you like on every strike rank? That would seem excessive ...

Dodge only works against attacks from one source. Most humanoids have only one attack in a round, unless they have 2 weapons, or are over 100% in their attack skill in which case they can split their attack (50% min). So it doesn't seem excessive to me that all attacks from one source can have an attempted dodge roll. If it was multiple opponents attacking I would agree with you.

5 hours ago, Jakob said:

Regarding the choice between parry or dodge: Would you say that you can choose on each SR? Or do you make a choice for the whole round and stick to it?

In past editions you chose to use either parry or dodge, and that was your defensive action for the whole round. From reading the text that seems to be what is indicated,

P13 Resolution of melee, Missles, and Spells

"The defender may try to parry or dodge the attack"

Perhaps it could be clearer with respect to the defender making the choice between parry or dodge, for the whole round. There is some ambiguity which could indicate that the defender could parry one attack from one source, and dodge another attack from a different source. I'm not quite clear from the text on the limits of using dodge and parry against multiple sources. Though I do think the text is clear on one on one situations - You either use parry or dodge, not both. Hopefully the designers will read this and put us right.

18 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I like the new parry which makes it possible to parry multiple attacks but with culmulative 20% penalty on every parry after the first.

1.Does this mean that characters can parry multiple attackers, or is it restricted to attacks from one source?  In which case do parries follow the same rule as attacks requiring over 100% to split parries with multiple attackers? 

2. Can a character attack and parry on the same Strike rank, or must one be sacrificed for the other?

Delving back into the QS, I found on P7 under "Strike Ranks" that "a parry does not take any strike ranks".

1. If parry is outside of the Strike rank mechanism does this indicate that you can indeed parry and attack on the same strike rank if necessary? If so that is a new departure from RuneQuest classic. 

2. I'm still unclear on whether parries can be used against attacks from multiple sources? My guess is that they can, as the text doesn't mention specifically "from one source", as it does clearly in the case of the Dodge description.

3 . Does Dodge also sit outside the strike rank mechanism? Is it possible to dodge and attack on the same strike rank? or do you loose the attack if you dodge on the same SR?

4. What are the limits to using dodge & parry in a Melee round? When attacks come from multiple sources, is it possible to chose parry against one opponent, and then chose dodge against a second opponent in the same round melee round? This also ties into question 2 in this post - Can parries be used against attacks from different sources in a melee round.

5. If a single attacker has more then 1 attack, is it possible for the defender to chose to alternate between parry and dodge for each different attack from the same attacker?

Interesting that shield & weapons used to parry automatically take 1 dam on a successful parry, regardless attackers rolled damage. Specials and crits that are parried on a normal success are likely to break weapons/shields as the full special/critical damage is taken by the parring weapon/shield.  Weapons and shields have a real sense of vulnerability. I like that. Truly deadly combat.

1 hour ago, Jakob said:

I also have a few parry questions - in general, I feel that the whole attack-parry-sequence is explained in a slightly roundabout way in the QS, leaving a few things unclear.

On p. 14, under "The Parry", it says: "A parrying weapon can only block damage equal to the parrying weapon's current hit points. If more points of damage get through, those points go on to do damage to a hit location of the defender." This seems to be the general rule, with exceptions for for critical and special success at parrying, where it is explicitly stated that "the parrying weapon (and the defender) take no damage". However, in case of a success, it only says: "the attack is parried, but the parrying shield or weapon loses 1 hit point."

Taking all this together, I'm not quite sure how to resolve a succesful parry against a succesful attack, especially with regards to the question when a weapon would break.

Version 1: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon also loses 1 hp, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 2: The attacker rolls damage. if the damage is below or equal to the weapons current hp, the weapon loses one hp and nothing else happens. If it exceeds the weapon's hp, the weapon breaks, and all excess damage goes into the hit location.

Version 3: There's no need to roll damage. The parrying weapon slimpy loses one hp, and all damage is absorbed.

 

Version one seems most in line with the rules as written - it's simply a combination of the general rule for damage overflow and what is stated under the sucess at parrying. Version 2 seems to make sense, also, but on the other hand, breaking a weapon seems to be a special case that is only explicitly mentioned under parry success against failed attacks. However, I strongly suspect that a weapon is supposed to break once it loses all its hp (but also when its hp are overcome in one strike ...?). Then again, not even the critical and special successes at attack explicitly state something about weapons breaking; it is just said that the defending weapon "takes" the criticals damage with the rest going to the defender - which, going by what it says under "The Parry", would be the general rule anyway, so it's not quite clear why it is mentioned again here, but then left out when describing the results of a normal success at attacking. That makes it seem very much as if the damage overflow thing would be a special rule for critical and special successes at attacking, which it is clearly not.

Version 3 is what I actually thought first after reading through "The Parry", since I was focussing on the bullet points. However, this would conflict with what I quoted from the main text under "The Parry", so its probably the wrong answer ...

Going by all that, I would tend to go with Version 1, but I'm still not quite sure whether the weapon would be supposed to break if its hp are overcome or not. Both would make sense. I think all of this would probably be easier to understand if it came in a chart with the outcomes for each possible combination spelled out separately.

 

Another related thing: Dodging. It says "The Dodge skill may be used to avoid a melee attack instead of a parry". I suspect that this also means that the cumulative -20 for multiple parries includes dodges, meaning that if I have parried once in the same round, I dodge at -20, and if I then parry again, that's at -40 - right? Also, can I dodge and parry on the same SR? Can I make several dodges on the same SR?

 

And finally, shields. I didn't get it first, but shields are actually very cool, because you can use them to for a second parry at the same strike rank if you already used your main weapon to parry. However, one thing is also unclear to me: "When a shield succesfully parries a succesful attack, the shield uses one hip oint and the damage of the attack is absorbed entirely." This seems to state explicitly that even if the damage exceeds the shields hp, it is still entirely absorbed (as opposed to when I parry with a normal weapon) - is that right? (not talking about special and critical successes here, it's stated explicitly that shields are damaged by them.)

 

A bunch of nitpicky questions, I know - but these are the small things that keep nagging at me in sleepless nights ...

From my reading of the QS, a successful weapon parry against a successful attack will block damage equal to the weapons armor points, any remaining damage is passed onto the target. The parrying weapon will lose 1 armor point regardless of rolled attack damage.

In contrast a special and critical attack against a successful parry results in the full weapon damage being received by the parrying weapon.

Shields absorb all damage from a successful attack regardless of rolled weapon damage, taking 1 pt dam.  But again if the attack is a special or critical result then the shield will take that full damage with any remaining being passed onto the target.

Regarding dodge, I presume that as with RQ3, you have to make a choice between either using parry or dodge. I don't think you can use both. QS states that dodge is effective against all attacks from one source only, but you have to roll for each attack. There is no mention of culmulative penalties for extra dodge rolls so I presume that it's considered the same chance each time.

I'm not sure about dodging and attacking on the same strike rank, or dodging and parrying on the same SR. It's likely tied to the same question I had regarding attacking and parrying on the same SR.

edit: I imagine like with past editions, you can only perform one action on a single Strike rank. 

I like the new parry which makes it possible to parry multiple attacks but with culmulative 20% penalty on every parry after the first.

1.Does this mean that characters can parry multiple attackers, or is it restricted to attacks from one source?  In which case do parries follow the same rule as attacks requiring over 100% to split parries with multiple attackers? 

2. Can a character attack and parry on the same Strike rank, or must one be sacrificed for the other?

Great thanks Jason, same as RQ2 in this respect 

Just a quick question on the new RQG QuickStart rules. How do multiple attacks work in the new rules? Are they the same as RQ classic requiring over 100% to perform more then one attack? 

Yes, it's a great introduction. Really nice adventure that beds you deep into Glorantha very quickly. Mankam has covered the significant points and additions which give the game great depth.

Its very familar to anyone who has played RQ2/3. It's interesting to see how they've tweeked the rules, and what aspects of RQ2/3 made it to the new addiction. 

There is a lot in this small booklet, just right for introducing the game and playing though the adventure. Happy and surprised to see a wealth of spot rules for combat. Some areas are abbreviated and will surely be fleshed out more in the full rules. For instance special hits like "crush", "impale" are not specifically mentioned, though we do have special & crit results with damage. Also the fumble table has been abbreviated to a single fumble result. 

However all this works just fine for the QuickStart. It's a great intro full of Glorantha richness and depth....it's dripping with goodness!

Had a brilliant day. Surprisingly exhausted by the time I got home. We probably should have stopped for lunch, but we were all so engrossed in the game, time just flew by.

Fallen back in love with RuneQuest. Combat is how I remember it - visceral. I hobbled back home feeling like my characters significant wounds were my own. Took me a while before I realised I didn't need my wounds dressed. New RuneQuest felt very familiar, but with new dimensions and greater depth thanks to the rich character backgrounds and the new passions and runes. Combined with Andrews superb GMing the game really came alive.

The climatic encounter dealt a dramatic conclusion to one of our party, who was hit by a crit accidentally  by one of our own members and killed out right. We all laughed but none so long and hard as our younger members who were playing RuneQuest for the first time.

Brilliant work Andrew - thanks so much to you, the other players participation,  and Chaosium for bringing this exceptional game back. 

Excited by the thought that we're all going to be participating in the launch of the new edition of RuneQuest from Chaosium. Also quite cool that people across the globe will be playing in the same scenario on the same day. Probably need to be on a remote Pacific island to be amoung the very first players on FreeRPG day...which other countries have freeRpg day I wonder? 

13 hours ago, MOB said:

We just posted the full finished pic in the latest update over on the 13th Age in Glorantha Kickstarter, so here are the Monkey Ruins in all their glory:

Just brilliant!

This is Prax - dusty, sandy, hot sun/cool shade, hint of past monkey epic glories in the ruins. A real sense of Baboon culture & daily life,and atmospheric perspective. I'm there.  *wipes tear from eye*

Andrey Festov, has  exceptional skill, vision and adaptability, He's really getting Glorantha. Love the mundane details, brings the baboon culture to life. Reminds me of the River of Cradles cover a little which had the native newtling fishermen at work on the river.

I'm pleased to say that I'm signed up for Andrews game on Saturday. Really looking forward to the opportunity to play both the new ruleset and the rich Glorantha setting. It's been a long time. 

I'm an old fan of RuneQuest, last time I played it was in the RQ3 period. Having experienced RQ2 and RQ3, I think Chaosium had the right idea in falling back to RQ2 as a basis to build up from. Recently revisited the RQ 2 & 3 rules to refresh my memory. Really looking forward to seeing how the new game has developed. I'm sure there will be a good story to tell. 

Looks superb! RuneQuest is back