Paid a bod yn dwp
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Posts posted by Paid a bod yn dwp
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On 3/22/2021 at 7:08 PM, lordabdul said:
Yeah that's what I was thinking when I was checking the first half of the book. It would have been simpler to state special attack abilities in each creature. It doesn't seem to me like it would add much text to the book because the number of entries that fall under the general rule p8 seem pretty small.
Yep agree 100%
On a side note, I like how they’ve left a couple free strike ranks after the Crimson Bat has finished its attacks, gives a chance to teach that Mofo a lesson! 🤣-
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36 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:
We will sell the PDFs at $14.99 when we start selling the printed set for $29.99. Same day.
That’s a great entry price. Really looking forward to this. Sincerely hope it grows the game, I’m sure it will.
I like the design ethos of keeping as close to the core rules as possible, rather then an overly abbreviated version of the rules. Really hoping for a clean, clarified and accessible starter set that opens up RuneQuest to a new audience. I’m guessing that will be forefront in the design of the new starter? There’s been such a wealth of feedback here since the original release of RQG, guessing that’s helped steer the designers in presenting this boxed set a new?
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16 hours ago, lordabdul said:
Yeah the giant's special attack is really a special move -- and it's a single attack anyway so I don't know if it qualifies as an RQ3 holdout.
The Huan-To (and the couple other monsters I've found with this "3 SR apart" special rule) is kinda weird... If I understand this correctly, Biting by itself would be done on SR7 (as per the table), Biting after a sword attack would also be SR7 (sword's SR4 + 3), and Biting after a claw attack would be SR10 (claw's SR7 + 3) ? Another instance of "RQG has many special cases and special rules".
Have to give the designers the benefit of the doubt here. There are elements like the 3sr intervals that have crossed over from RQ3, but I’ve yet to find any example where RQ3 rule cross over is problematic. There’s no overt reference to parry restriction that could feel left over from RQ3. The borrowing of the 3sr must be intentional in RQG. Maybe alarm bells were ringing because of previous rules clash’s from older editions in the core book?
There are a few what I’d consider to be missing combat notes ( not too many) which I’ll add to the Q&A thread. Scotty rightly pointed out that I would be breaching copyright with my other thread on missing combat notes, and perhaps they may clash with the designers intensions.
That said presentation of the rules could be a bit clearer - for example why not have notes about simultaneous attacks included in the individual creatures combat notes? There’s a relatively small number of creatures that that rule refers to. It’d save a lot of confusion, and referencing back and forth. The less rules I need to remember the better. Have it all by the creature for easy reference.
Also the general rule about 2-weapon attacks that is the fallback rule in the book, should be emphasised better at the front of the book. It’s there but tagged on to the end of another rule. I’d make it more obvious, give it its own bullet point.
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12 minutes ago, lordabdul said:
Yes it might be late 🙂 As per my original comment: the "multiple attacks happen simultaneously" is only, I think, for creatures that are already specified as having multiple attacks per round. So the way I understand it:
- No combat notes: the creature follows the usual rules.
- Combat note about having multiple attacks per round: these multiple attacks are simultaneous (the "if so..." of the rule p8).
- Combat note about having multiple attacks per round but with a specific rule for how to play those attacks: just follow the combat note (the "unless specified otherwise" of the rule p8).
I’m going to bed 🤪
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24 minutes ago, lordabdul said:
The Huan-To (and the couple other monsters I've found with this "3 SR apart" special rule) is kinda weird... If I understand this correctly, Biting by itself would be done on SR7 (as per the table), Biting after a sword attack would also be SR7 (sword's SR4 + 3), and Biting after a claw attack would be SR10 (claw's SR7 + 3) ?
Yes it curiously seems to also fit with the RQ3 10 melee round
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5 minutes ago, lordabdul said:
I don't know what the problem is with the Minotaur? It can attack with a melee weapon (Great Axe) or with a natural weapon (Head Butt). Again, that's similar to baboons with their spear and bite, or humans with their sword and kick. I think you just go with the normal rules there, no?
I might well be befuddled as it’s late now, but I was thinking if there is no mention in the notes as to how to use the second attack, that they should therefore follow the rule on p8 and happen simultaneously?
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I’m also noticing a lot copy over from RQ3 in the RQG bestiary which reference parry, or the loss of parry due to making two attacks. Those bits aren’t relevant to how parry works in RQG now. Sure you can make exceptions, like the giant sweeping attack, but some of those like the Huan to are obviously referencing RQ3 rules, and are not relevant to RQG.
Also the reference to attacks being 3sr apart was a RQ3 convention. Doesn’t break the game, but I wonder if it was intentional using that, instead of the RQG approach for the second attack?
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9 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
look at the Minotaur, it has 2 attacks, and no mention of exceptions, so are we to presume they happen simultaneously? I still feel that as general rule it doesn’t sit well at all. Why is it there?
I’ve found the combat notes from RQ3, which shares the same 2 attacks as the Minotaur in RQG:
”A Minotaur can use either a head butt or a hand-held weapon in a given round. It could use both only as per normal two-weapon use, thereby depriving itself of the ability to parry that round” - RQ3
The note about the parry is really only relevant to how RQ3 worked. If you made two attacks you lost the ability to parry in that game, that’s not applicable in RQG.
But what’s described there is not simultaneous attacks, yet we have that general rule on p8. It’s too problematic IMO and doesn’t make sense. I couldn’t imagine a Minotaur simultaneously attacking with a hand held weapon and head butt on the same SR. Perhaps my first hunch was right, and it’s meant to refer to attacks that are listed as already sharing the same SR?
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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:
On the other hand, I don't know why some creature entries like the Wyrm feel the need to specify that "it can attack once per round".
That ones comes straight out of RQ3. RQ3. It’s mentioned in case you presume you can use both of its listed attacks in a melee round. I believe the general rule in RQG (RQ2, & RQ3) is that you can make two attacks, if you have two weapons or forms of attacks, and enough SR’s available.
3 hours ago, lordabdul said:Many creatures can attack more than once in a round: if so, unless specified otherwise, the creature uses both attacks at once, instead of working under the guidelines for two-weapon combat shown in the Combat chapter of the RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha rulebook
Hmm...that’s really odd. I completely miss interpreted that - I was looking for a solution to explain how to adjudicate attacks that share the same SR. To my mind, whilst searching for a solution, it was specifying attacks which are listed sharing the same SR, as those are the ones that to me need some guidance. For example some will occur simultaneously, whilst some will be a choice to choose between. But you’re right too point it out, it doesn’t say that at all - Very odd - note to self, stay away from RuneQuest rule books late at night!🤪
Regardless of my misinterpretation, there seem to be some creatures like the Maidstone Archer that have 2 forms of attack available, and no combat note guidance, so are we to presume that they attack simultaneously with their two swords? If so which SR do they use? Right hand sr 1, or left hand sr 6? Maybe this is another case of missing combat notes and their two attacks are supposed to happen on the respective SR’s? There was nothing in RQ3 (their first appearance I think) about simultaneous attacks.
look at the Minotaur, it has 2 attacks, and no mention of exceptions, so are we to presume they happen simultaneously? I still feel that as general rule it doesn’t sit well at all. Why is it there?
3 hours ago, lordabdul said:The "unless specified otherwise" refers to things like Sea Trolls, Huan To, and Jack'O Bears: they don't do simultaneous attacks as per the general rule, they specifically use 3SR intervals for at least some of their attacks.
That’s interesting - they’ve carried over the 3sr interval from RQ3, where by that was when you could make a second attack with a second weapon if you had one. In RQ2/RQG the method is to add the sr of the second attack to the first. I wonder whether that was deliberate or simply copied over and slipped through the editing process?
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16 hours ago, lordabdul said:
Combat notes are super helpful for newcomers, yes, so that would be awesome!
Have started a new thread on this topic here:
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12 hours ago, lordabdul said:
Personally I wouldn't, by default, allow attacking twice per round with both hands, for the same reason I wouldn't allow humans to roll for punch twice per round because they have two arms. You need a >100% skill in unarmed combat and then you can split the attack.
Yes agree. That’s a very good way to rationalise things like claw attacks in RQ. 100% with you there - Unless the special combat notes say other wise that will be my guidance in future.
The more I’ve thought about it the more problematic the ruling on p8 of the Gloranthan Bestiary is under “weapons”. Even with guidance of the individual creature combat notes (some of which are problematically missing), it still plays funny with the baboon. I’m pretty sure the baboon was never intended to have simultaneous bite and claw attacks as a “standard” mode of attack? At least in past editions that was not the case, and i see no reason in RQG to adjust that assumption.
Certainly a Gm can rule other wise in accordance with the narrative, but as standard mode I would think not. The base line needs to be clear and the rule on p8 of the bestiary muddies the water.@Scotty @Jason D I would advise removing that rule completely, and instead rely on the individual combat notes to explain simultaneous attacks. Take the Hydra for example, lots of heads, but a total blank with guidance on how to use them. Not everyone is coming to this game with the knowledge and experience of the game writers. Some people may not have even heard of a hydra before. It would make more sense to have included the original Hydra combat notes rather then relying on a general rule that doesn’t fit with all of the creatures in the bestiary.
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12 hours ago, lordabdul said:
Oh good investigating! So the average Baboon has SR (1+2+2)=5 (instead of 6) with a short spear? And unarmed attacks are (1+2+4)=7 (instead of 8 ) ?
Sorry missed the “?” there.
Yes, that’s it.
Your average Baboon wielding a 1-handed short spear should be calculated from the following:
- Dex SR 1
- Size SR 2
- 1-handed short spear SR2
- Claw/Bite SR4 (see unarmed attacks)
So short-handed spear attacks on SR 5. Claw/bite on SR 7.
That means in practice, short-handed Spear attack on SR7, followed by Claw/bite on SR12.
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Yes as mentioned SR’s in RQG are just a way to sort the order of actions, not a literal measurement of time.
It may help to consider the different system in RQ3:
In contrast RQ3 turned them into a more specific measurement of time, mostly because they introduced movement into and throughout the melee round engagement. RQG like RQ2 doesn’t do that. Movement is only calculated in RQG as a means to find out at what point you arrive at the fight, after which the melee round is a more abstract engagement, and there’s no further need to calculate movement by SR.
RQ3 continued to measure movement by SR throughout the melee engagement, therefore SR’s became a continual measure of time and distance. This is not what RQG does, SR’s are just to sort the order of the abstracted combat round, no need to measure time and distance. It’s simply sorting the initiative order. -
3 hours ago, lordabdul said:
I didn't understand this statement about "no parry or dodge" since, AFAICT, you always get parry and dodge (at -20% cumulative) in RQG? I don't know RQ3 but it looks like it might have been Scotty still playing with these old rules:
Yes. This confused me as well. That’s definitely out of the RQ3 rules, not RQG. Scotty made a comment elsewhere about giving the baboon a 2-handed spear so as to allow them a parry as well. Was scratching my head a bit & wondering what I was missing, but you’re right that’s 100% RQ3 rules.
Grateful for him pointing out the SR mistake of the baboon, hadn’t thought to check out the claw SR as well, now they play how they were supposed to. But yes, I wouldn’t allow 2 claw attacks. Spear followed by claw/bite, yes definitely as per the combat notes. Claw and bite probably not, unless “victim” is surprised.
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19 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
Heh heh yes! I think it was a combination of things that led us on a merry dance - the error with the baboon sr calculations, the dragon not having accompanying combat notes, and the interaction of those things with the rule under “weapons” on p8 of the bestiary.
Baboons were in a fluster! 🤪
Yes I can see now flicking through the RQG bestiary, the main design issue with the RQG Bestiary is that it’s missing quite a few of the combat notes for creatures, that were originally included with creatures in previous editions (mostly the RQ3 ones)
For example the Lesser Hydra is missing it’s combat notes, as is the Dream Dragon. I haven’t checked the whole book but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a few more missing. I feel that’s a shame as those kind of notes are really helpful for new comers to RuneQuest. We shouldn’t presume that new gamers know how a lesser hydra attacks with its many heads. Not everyone knows the story of the hydra, or has the previous knowledge of past RuneQuest editions.
Sometimes a prompt like the combat notes is the spur newcomers need to grasp the concept of the creature, particularly with a crunchy game like RuneQuest. Be good if Chaosium could print future editions with all the combat notes included, particularly with the spirit of opening up the game to new comers (think starter set). Feel the absence of some combat notes in the bestiary are a presumption which isn’t helpful to newcomers.
I may have to start a separate thread to note which creatures are missing combat notes, which could serve the basis of an errata.
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1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:
...and I thought that was exactly what I said what said way back when.... 🙂
Heh heh yes! I think it was a combination of things that led us on a merry dance - the error with the baboon sr calculations, the dragon not having accompanying combat notes, and the interaction of those things with the rule under “weapons” on p8 of the bestiary.
Baboons were in a fluster! 🤪
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Ok thanks to Scotty and persistence from myself ( I intend to make a baboon character) we have finally got to the bottom (excuse the pun) of the baboons attacks
So to pull together the research and answer the OP, if you look at Scott’s reply above you will see that the SR’s have been calculated incorrectly in the RQG bestiary. If you follow Scott’s recalculation you get an average baboon that can attack twice in a melee round as per the baboon combat notes.
- The spear attack will be SR5, followed by the bite or claw attack on SR12.
In RQG any number of parries /dodges are possible as they don’t require strike ranks like they used to in past editions. But each parry/dodge can only be directed at one attack. Further parries/dodges after the first are subject to a minus 20% cumulative penalty. Unless there is an exception noted in the creatures combat notes.
Oh and apparently baboons are super dextrous, following the RQ3 write up.
I think it’s safe to say as a general guidance that creatures have 1 or 2 attacks, unless specified otherwise in the their combat notes. This was the case with the Dream Dragon in RQ2 and RQ3, and I see no reason to change that presumption, unless you are going for all out dragon carnage 🙂
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8 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
This translates in RQ2 to two attacks in a melee round ( like RQ3). Spear on SR 4, then claw or bite on SR12.
In RQG which shares the same tactical notes for baboons, the SR of the spear attack is changed to 6 (it was 4 in RQ2) So any follow up claw/bite has to occur the following round, which I’m not sure was intentional? Those notes specifically called out two attacks in a melee round in RQ2, in RQG there isn’t much point to them, its arbitrary, as you can obviously choose any attack you wish at the start of the melee round. I suspect that’s an oversight@Scotty?
The original design intention of allowing two attacks in a melee round has been lost.Checking out the baboons statistic in RQG, it’s dex has shot up to 3d6+6! When did they get so dextrous!? Surely a mistake?
Also the SR of 6 with the spear attack is in line with a baboon with a dex of 2d6+6, and not reflective of the stated 3d6+6 dex, which I’m pretty sure is how it should be if as I imagine baboons aren’t super dextrous.
Interestingly if we say the baboons dex is supposed to be 2d6+6, then all the sr calculations including weapon are in line with how they are calculated in RQ2.
Critically in RQ2 they have actually brought the overall spear attack SR down to 4 for the baboon so both attacks fit into the melee round. This doesn’t fit if you follow the standard way to calculate SR’s. Seems that it was purposefully manipulated contrary to the rules, so the baboon could get those two attacks in the melee round.
Perhaps if generating a player baboon character this could be replicated ( along with correcting the baboons dex) by saying the baboon has some kind of cult or cultural affinity with the one-handed spear, letting the spear be a special case SR 0 weapon, instead of its listed SR 2? That would make sense of the RQ2 write up, and by extension also allow baboons in RQG get those 2 attacks in a melee round, as the combat notes allude to. Either that or break with convention and make the baboons second attack 3 strike ranks later (borrowed from RQ3, this same exception is made for the snow troll in the RQG bestiary).
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5 hours ago, Psullie said:
Personally though I wouldn't allow Baboon's multiple attacks, for the simple reason as why not apply it to humans? All the creatures that have multiple attacks have it stated in their descriptions. I think that the rule on Page 8 relates to those creatures that already have multiple attacks do so in the same SR unless noted otherwise, and not that it applies to all creatures.
Yes I actually agree with you. That’s how I would have interpreted it too. But the answer given by Scotty is more open ended.
This has got me thinking, I’ve delved back into RQ2 and RQ3 for answers.
Heres the issues with RQG attack entires as I see them:
• The rule on p8 under “weapons” is clumsily written. If you compare it to the Dream Dragon entry which has many attacks listed on the same SR, taken literally the rule would mean the Dragon has 3 different attacks that can happen simultaneously (Same SR). There is no exception noted in the dragon description as required by the rule on p8, so all those attacks can happen simultaneously. Obviously that number of attacks would be overkill, so the rule on p8 must be incorrect, or they forgot to add the exception to the dragon description.
• The dragons 4 attack forms are taken directly from the RQ3 version. In RQ2 there were only two attack methods, and both could potentially be made in melee round. Further In RQ3 there is clear direction on how to use the 4 dragons attack methods, this helpful advice is omitted from RQG:
“ A Dragon has two attacks each round: it may either bite or breath flame for one attack, and either use claw or tail for the other. The bite will come 3 strike ranks after any other attacks being performed. When flying, a dragon only has a breath attack.” - RQ3.
The only mechanical difference here with RQ3 is that a second attack occurs 3 SR’s later. In contrast in RQG you add on the second attack’s SR to the first, or attack simultaneously if sharing the same SR. RQ3 also only allowed a maximum of 2 attacks, but you would have to sacrifice parry/dodge to make a second attack. Regardless of the mechanical differences between editions, you can still have those two dragon attacks, and maybe even 3 in RQG. Though I suspect as with RQ2 and RQ3, two attacks are supposed to be the default.
The confusion with the dragon in RQG is that it has 3 attacks that can happen “simultaneously” if you are following the rules to the letter (see p8). I feel we’re definitely missing a little guidance in the dragons notes on how to use the attacks, particularly if you’re new to the game and unfamiliar with the rules.
This all goes back to the baboons in RQG as well. In RQ3 they had (like humans) a maximum of two attacks:
“A common technique is to stab with the javelin, then bite 3 SR’s later. As with humans, if a baboon attacks twice, it waives any parry or dodge” - RQ3, Gloranthan Bestiary.
In RQG you do have this two attack limit (but missing the defensive penalty) for humanoids, so it feels fitting to apply that limit to baboons, which can also be player characters.
In RQ2 (with which RQG shares the same combat notes)
“A common technique is to stab with a spear and close to use claw or bite”
This translates in RQ2 to two attacks in a melee round ( like RQ3). Spear on SR 4, then claw or bite on SR12.
In RQG which shares the same tactical notes for baboons, the SR of the spear attack is changed to 6 (it was 4 in RQ2) So any follow up claw/bite has to occur the following round, which I’m not sure was intentional? Those notes specifically called out two attacks in a melee round in RQ2, in RQG there isn’t much point to them, its arbitrary, as you can obviously choose any attack you wish at the start of the melee round. I suspect that’s an oversight@Scotty?
The original design intention of allowing two attacks in a melee round has been lost.
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So to return to the op question, following scotty answer in the Q&A thread - the only limitations on use of listed attacks are circumstantial, and Strike ranks. If the creature notes don’t say other wise, attacks on the same SR happen simultaneously (see p8 bestiary)
The Baboon could make a spear attack on SR 6, but there aren’t enough SR’s to also employ bite and claw attacks in the same melee round. However next round the baboon could drop the spear and choose to attack simultaneously with two claw attacks, and a bite (as there’s no rule to say otherwise. See p8 bestiary) - provided of course it meets with the narrative and makes sense. Of course that maybe a tall order, requiring a downed opponent etc.
Getting up personal, biting and clawing simultaneously, probably wouldn’t be possible in most combat circumstances, many gms would rule either one bite or one claw attack in a standard encounter, but there is potential for 2 claw attacks, and a bite in one melee round but it’s circumstantial.Its a funny beast RuneQuest. Lots of crunchy rules, but also lots of rulings not rules circumstances.
I had expected there to be a cap of two attacks as per standard pc’s, as it’s so specific in the rules, but that is apparently not the case. Have to admit to feeling that it’s an odd juxtaposition compared to how tight the rules are on standard PC attacks.
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Hey if you need any manic fans to give it the once over before going to print you know where to find us. Happily buy now, if it’s of help.
That’s looks AMAZING!-
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17 minutes ago, Scotty said:
Overall, with creatures with multiple weapons, look at how they work when fighting, rather than focussing on the weapons and numbers.
Yes agree with playing what’s in front of you, but surely there’s a hard and fast limit to any combination? Guidance within which you improvise as you said?
Seems likely to me that unless stated otherwise, that limit is two attacks (sr permitting) following the two-weapon ruling?
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1 hour ago, Scotty said:
The baboon tactics I use are: spear, then knockback, hoping for a knockdown then bite.
How does that play out?
• Melee Round 1 - spear attack,
• Melee round 2 - knockback attack
• Melee Round 3 - bite
Or following two weapon attack rule:
• melee round 1 - spear attack, and knockback attack
• melee round 2 - bite, and claw attack.
@Scotty Presumably unless we’re splitting attacks, or the creature description says otherwise, there’s a hard limit of two attacks per round (if two or more forms of attacks listed) following the two-weapon rule? So baboons would be able to use any 2 combinations of those attacks listed in a melee round?
Would this be sensible general guidance? - Of course circumstantial practicalities, and Gm fiat always a consideration.
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6 minutes ago, Scotty said:
Not asked there.
All of the Q&A have been transferred to the appropriate Q&A on the Well of Daliath, where not still in thread. Locked threads are still searchable if the content is there. The WoD is fully searchable:
Ah ok so regarding the OP’s original question, and with Scotty’s direction above, the answer is just one attack, unless it’s specifically called out in the creature description.
Of course if you have a super skilful baboon that meets all the requirements then they can split their attacks, but they would have to designate which form of attack they’re using.
But if you’re following the Two weapon attacks rule ( seems harsh to penalise baboons for having claws and teeth) then perhaps we should be allowing them one of those attacks as well providing there’s enough SR’s at their full %? After all a human warrior can make a weapon attack and a shield attack at full shield % ( though they loose the shield parry). What say you @Scotty?
While We're Talking About Passions, Passion Awards in Smoking Ruin
in RuneQuest
Posted · Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
Yes lordAbdul on the money here. This is how I see it. Passions take you above and beyond what you’d normally be capable of doing - Not necessarily whether you will or will not be loyal. More a case of whether you’ll be loyal with real passion, and fire in your belly!...or feel hesitant, & slightly unsure due to your personal doubts, other commitments etc (represented by failure -10%). Passions are emotive and can distort working either way.
But failure on a passion roll doesn’t mean you’re going to become the opposite of loyal and turn into an enemy.
As lordAbdul said fumbles are the ones to watch out for, but even then it could be emotionally crippling, but not necessarily twist you into an enemy of your clan etc.