kaydet

I think this is just an editing error. It should definitely be more generalized to avoid confusion.

I'm aware of that. My point is that allied or guardian spirits -- as well as a shaman's fetch -- are examples of the kind of interaction I'm looking for: a personal relationship with a spirit that provides magical benefit. Because "spirit magic" / "battle magic" lacks that personal interaction with a spirit being, something I think should be reflected in the rules more explicitly. When it happened is quite frankly immaterial to my point. And as for my "complaint", see above.

Page 60-61 talks of Allied Spirits -- which is what I was referring to. If we're really drawing a distinction between "Allied" and "Guardian" then I guess you're right. So then my question to you would be why the mechanics of the game don't reflect that. I'm well aware, believe me. It's been pointed out numerous times. I'm not attacking the Quickstart, nor faulting it in any way other than asking why the rules are set up as they are. I don't think it's a large jump in logic to assume that the mechanics will be similar if they are using Battle Magic spells and re-branding them as Spirit Magic.

This has never been about wondering whether it would be acceptable for me to modify the rules. I know and understand that Glorantha is not something set in stone. Instead it's been a question of how spirits interact with the people living in the Middle World, and how that is replicated in the rules. Having read the Quickstart now, I am less against the direct port of Battle Magic to Spirit Magic, but I still think that it could be made to be more interesting. I guess my answer to your question would be to say that spirit defenses would protect against all spirit magic unless they were overcome by a POW resistance roll between the two spirits? Perhaps a spirit scouting for the player might be caught and killed by a defensive spirit protecting an enemy camp. Ultimately, though, my instinct would be to not use the Battle/Spirit Magic spells at all, and to substitute various types of spirits (à la elementals) as NPC followers that would augment their owner's abilities and provide magical services.

@flynnkd I'm not playing Heroquest... I'm picturing how Glorantha functions. If Glorantha "works" a certain way, I don't see why Runequest shouldn't replicate that through its mechanics.

I don't think it's "my" concept; I'm pretty sure Guardian Spirits have been around since RQ2. What I am picturing involves a regular adventurer having charms that contain spirits. He cannot create these charms, nor trap spirits into them -- that is the realm of a shaman. By touching these charms and speaking the name of the spirit, he can release them into the world in order to aid him. These spirits allow him certain abilities when they are released; one might guide his blade in combat, or make him fleet of foot; another might hide the tracks he makes in snow or sand. He is limited in the number of charms he can carry, and the strength of the spirits housed within them. A shaman can carry more and stronger spirits, and can travel the spirit world to find and create such charms as he might wish.

27 cubic meters is a lot of anything. I think I will definitely be downsizing them in any game I run.

I think that variability is covered by the broadness of the rune descriptors, as well as the GM's judgement of what qualifies as acting like your god. But it's your game. Run it how you like.

My point, again, has never been to argue about how past Runequest editions have worked. I've simply been attempting to explain how I would like to see spirits and spirit magic handled in RQG. Perhaps I'll just use the shaman rules for all PCs if the battle magic paradigm is still maintained.

This statement is more than a little ridiculous to me. Why change its name to Spirit Magic if it has nothing to do with spirits? Do they just teach you the spell and then leave? Anyway, my point, as always since this conversation started, has been that Spirit Magic should have more of that animistic flavor which you insist only shamans can interact with. I think a more involved approach would be much more interesting and engaging than the way it is currently presented.

I don't think that the intention behind the Runes/Passions is to give the GM authorial control over the characters, nor do I think that a good GM would run it that way. Firstly, the compulsion only occurs when an adventurer has a high runic affinity (over 80%), which indicates that a player has spent significant time and effort to increase his level of runic affinity -- a dedicated choice on the part of the player, with in-game rewards for that behavior. The runic compulsion is the counterpoint to that, providing a risk-reward calculation. Choosing to boost your runic affinity should have some kind of risk-reward benefit: you enjoy some serious bonuses, but you carry with you the consequences of embodying (a piece of) a god. This is a pretty constant and integral part of Glorantha. Secondly, I do not think that the compulsion takes the form of the GM telling the player what his character does. After all, the runic descriptions are very vague; a smart player and a good GM should be able to come up with a way to satisfy his runic affinity while still allowing plenty of player agency. Sometimes restraints and restrictions can bring out the best creativity. Lastly, there is also a factual statement: if you have a high runic affinity, you have obviously been acting like your god -- if you do not act like your god, you do not have a high runic affinity.

I'm describing how I believe spirit magic functions in Glorantha. Why would the mechanics of spirit magic differ between a shaman and a regular character? I know that -- which is why I made the statement I did. I'd like to see more of a mechanical difference between the two.

GURPS solves this problem by making Dodge an expensive and difficult ability to increase, but as a skill in RQG, I'm not sure the same restrictions can be applied -- though we haven't yet seen what the character development rules will look like. My instinct is that Dodge should only be a viable option when parrying would not block enough damage to prevent grievous injury or possible death -- an act of desperation to avoid the kick of a giant's foot or the blow of Jar-Eel's blade, rather than an option regularly exercised.

When I was writing the above I hadn't yet had the opportunity to look through the quickstart rules. I have as of July 1, and I'm actually quite pleased with what I found. That being said, my objection up-thread was mainly that Battle Magic from RQ2 was being relabeled as Spirit Magic, which struck me as being without much of the flavor that I associate with animistic spirit magic (even though, I suppose, it was always "spirit magic" back in RQ2). The accumulation of charms and the personal relationship with the various spirits is what makes that type of magic different and interesting to me, and it seems like those things are implicit in the rules rather than something that the players have to track and involve themselves with. It would be much more interesting for me to have to choose which charms I wish to have with me on an adventure based on what I expect to confront. If the number of spirits an adventurer can have on his person at one time is limited, and if there is variability in the power and influence of different spirits, it would give players an incentive to hunt down different and more powerful spirits, and would make the possession of a guardian spirit (which might not take up one of your spirit "slots") all the more important and useful. My other objection is that, as it stands, Rune Magic seems to be (mechanically speaking) simply a rarer and more powerful version of Spirit Magic, which I find less than ideal. Again, these are just my thoughts on what I've seen and heard up to now, and it's quite possible that there are additional twists that are to be added in the final release.

Not speaking specifically about the Quickstart at all, and I understand that there is limited space. I'm just stating my hopes for the actual rules when they arrive. To your point, though, I think that it is a false statement to say that explaining how a culture uses spirit magic is equivalent to revealing the "one truth" of Glorantha.

The correct answer to all such questions (and inevitable arguments) is to ask "whose comic book is the fight taking place in?"

I think that speaks to @Jon Hunter's point, right? That the healers are concerned with the moral and spiritual interpretation of their rule, rather than a dogmatic adherence to one doctrine or another.

Such as the divide between the eastern and western branches of Christianity, or between Sunni and Shia Islam. I feel that the adherents of Chalana Arroy would not be particularly prone to quibble about the "wording" of their cult taboos.

My point exactly.

I always thought that that write-up was intended to be facetious... There are a lot of assumptions and hand-waves involved in that battle plan.

The Crimson Bat is a tac-nuke that can turn strategic if it's fed enough souls. I don't think ten or even a hundred arrows are going to stop it, no matter how hard they hit. I also doubt that it would be deployed alone without support, so your archers and Humakti are going to have plenty of other things to worry about before the Bat's sight bursts the eyes inside their heads.

I apologize for being brusk in my reply. I shouldn't have been so short. In the end I think that HQ and RQ represent two different approaches to the world, one narrative and the other simulationist. I really hope that Chaosium makes full use of the detailed style they have access to, because they have a real chance to explore and explain Glorantha through a concrete system of rules and mechanics.

I think it's perfectly fair to ask questions and make comments about the way a game is being developed. This is a public forum isn't it? I thought that was the purpose. That's why I asked my initial question -- to gather some more information about the new system. But everything I've heard makes it sound like it's exactly the same as RQ2 battle magic, and I think that any distinct changes would be shown in the Quickstart. If they're not being tested now, I doubt they're going to be in a book released by this Christmas. The flavor comes from the way you apply the mechanic (e.g., d100 or d20 rolls) to the game world. I won't repeat my arguments that I gave in my previous post, since this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I had hoped that Runequest will represent Gloranthan magic with a structured approach rather than leaving it simply to the GM to narrate as you suggest. I'll be interested to read the Quickstart pdf on July 1st.

I disagree, for several reasons. First, while Gloranthan fuzziness about myth and religion might be endlessly satisfying to enthusiasts (I count myself among them) who enjoy debating and pondering such weighty questions, I think that new players need to have some structure to help them get to grips with how the world works -- even if it isn't entirely "accurate" or "true". Second, there are definitely known "modalities" for different cultures. Having different game mechanics for different understandings of spirit (or any) magic seems like an easy (and exciting!) way to differentiate cultures and explore Glorantha's celebrated diversity. Thirdly, my point about Heroquest still stands: spirit magic in HQG is pretty detailed and flavorful, with different societies, charms, taboos, and so forth. "Battle magic" in RQ2 has none of that, and if RQG is essentially relabeling "battle magic" to "spirit magic" then I'm left wondering where all that flavor is being provided. Is it up to the GM to do, as you suggest in the second half of your post? If so then again I must say that I am disappointed. I would suggest that how you roll the dice and for what reason have a great deal of importance. The mechanics behind a game process replicate and reinforce the action in the roleplaying world. This, to me, sounds like a statement about Heroquest. In fact, why am I using a set of rules at all? I could run a game by this method using coin flips.

And that would be great for a game like Heroquest, where the whole point is to be vague and narrative-minded. But this is Runequest, which to my mind should be mechanically simulating the workings of Glorantha as accurately and precisely as it can. When Heroquest has more detailed and complex rules covering the handling and interaction of spirits, I think there's something wrong.