creativehum

Yes. I've re-read the thread yesterday. It was helpful! And thank you for the reminder.

The thing to keep in mind, for me, is that KAP's adventures suggest Traits work one way, and the rules suggest Traits working in an almost completely different way.

In particular, the KAP adventures are written in a way that suggests the PCs need to make Trait rolls left and right to find out what happens. These texts also often suggest that a PC only rolls one of the two paired Traits to determine what happens. (So, in The Adventure of the White Horse, the text says, "This is a test of the Chaste trait: roll to avoid.")  But none of this is how the rules are written.

In the KAP rules if you don't have a Famous Trait, you don't have to make a roll. You can make a roll. But you don't have to. Instead, you can simply make a choice and get a check for the Trait you chose. (I'm fine with this. It means we're still honoring the player's choice for the PC with a mechanic (the check) and over time these choice will make the PC Famous in the Trait if he keeps behaving that way.)

Secondly, per the rules, even if one has a Famous Trait you roll on the first Trait. If you succeed, you behave in that way. However, if you fail...

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Failure: Failure at a single die roll is not enough to force a character to act entirely opposite to his usual patterns of behavior; the player must also roll against the opposite Trait to see if chance and statistics force his character to break pattern. Thus, only a successful roll within the range of a Trait forces the player’s hand.

If the PC doesn't succeed at the second roll, he can choose to behave however he wishes.

Finally, PCs can always "Prepare for Trait Rolls"

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Players will often sense impending Trait rolls and should take action as needed to keep the game moving along without arguments. They can have their characters avoid conflicts or gain modifiers against forthcoming ones, but only if they pave the way before the Gamemaster initiates the challenge process.

All in all, while the PCs might be tempted by the fertility festival, the odds are slim.

If it should happen, I'll sort something you. I really liked your idea of letting the PC work to catch up, treating it as one of the failed horsemanship rolls and setting him an hour behind the others.

Thank you so much for the reply! 

After reviewing the Grey Knight a little bit more and considering your response, I've decided to go with The Adventure of the White Horse. I'll have an introduction where the PCs are Squires frustrated that they aren't out with Uther battling Saxons, the Knight of the Old Way arrives at Castle Vagon on his way to the celebration, and Sire Elad gives them permission to tag along.

I have two additional scenes toward the end to extend if needed -- a fight with some Saxons, a knighting ceremony when they go to Sarum to tell their tale. Either can be cut, but they're there if I want them.

I think it will go well. 

I'm thinking about running something for an online game convention, and would love to run King Arthur Pendragon.

This would be a four hour block, with 2-3 players. The Grey Knight looks great, but I'm wondering if those who have played through it could weigh in on how long it takes to run.

If that might run too long, any recommendations for a 4-hour convention game scenario? Something the not only shows off the rules, but brings the dream-like quality of Mallory into play?

Thanks!

The real meat of Traits is "After the Trait roll, what does the character do?" 

So accuracy of information is not what a Trusting/Suspicious roll is about. (As @Darius West points out accuracy of information is what Intrigue or Awareness are for.)

If a Test is required for the Trait, what is at stake is how the Player Knight behaves toward his host, a lady, a monk, his lord, what have you. This behavior in turn provokes a direction for the situation at hand, which drives play forward in that direction.

Yes, that makes sense.

For my game I would house rule it much as BoS does. The Hate Saxons 3d6 is something I consider Cultural, not personal. The 3d6+6 is the personal-family value.

Buy I see what he was saying now.

First, @piersb, I want you to run your game exactly as you want, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Secondly, I'm looking at a PDF of KAP 5.2, and maybe the print text and the PDF text are different in some ways, or perhaps there are several revisions of the PDF. I don't know.

But I do know I'm looking at the year 463 on p. 63 of the KAP 5.2 PDF and it says:

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Events Table: 463*

“Night of Long Knives” treachery: Grandfather murdered. Your family gains Hate (Saxons) Passion 3d6+6.

 

[emphasis added]

Now, again, maybe I have a text of this edition different than others, but in the text I have the Player Knights are definitely going to have a Hate (Saxons) -- and most likely be very passionate about it. Every member that the player rolls up for his PK in at least the Uther Phase is going to have this roll because the roll is imposed on the family... not grandfather or the father.

So, yes... the PKs all end up with a Hate (Saxons) if you use the Family History. At least in the text I'm looking at right now.

15 hours ago, TrippyHippy said:

Might be the best Authurian adaptation since Excalibur.

Certainly that's my take on the film.

The Green Knight (the movie) is definitely different than Sir Gawain and The Green Knight (the poem). The basic situation of the challenge in Arthur's court remains the same and the game forms the spine of the movie as the poem.

David Lowery (the writer/director) takes these lines found in the poem:

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Many cliffs he over-clambered in countries strange,

far flying from his friends forsaken he rides.

at every twist of the water where the way passed

he found a foe before him, or freakish it were,

and so foul and fell he was beholden to fight.

So many marvels by mountain there the man finds,

it would be tortuous to tell a tenth of the tale.

Sometimes with dragons he wars, and wolves also,

sometimes with wild woodsmen haunting the crags,

with bulls and bears both, and boar other times,

and giants that chased after him on the high fells.

had he not been doughty, enduring, and Duty served,

doubtless he had been dropped and left for dead,

for war worried him not so much but winter was worse,

when the cold clear water from the clouds shed,

and froze ere it fall might to the fallow earth.

Near slain by the sleet he slept in his steel

more nights than enough in the naked rocks,

where clattering from the crest the cold burn runs,

and hung high over his head in hard icicles.

Thus in peril and pain, and plights full hard

covers the country this knight till Christmas Eve

alone.

The knight that eventide

to Mary made his moan,

to show him where to ride,

and guide him to some home.

 

And draws inspiration from them, illustrating some of the events mentioned as only a few words above, or adding his own to expand on "many marvels" Gawain encounters. This is all cricket as far as I'm concerned, since the poem says quite plainly "so many marvels by mountain there the man finds, it would be tortuous to tell a tenth of the tale." It's an open invitation for invention for the next storyteller and Lowery accepts it happily.

There are many tests of Gawain, so much so that the whole thing would fit comfortably in a game of King Arthur Pendragon as well Le Morte D'Arthur and the original poem. So all in all, its inspiration by the poem comes honestly.

The biggest differences are in the structure of the story and the nature of Gawain's arc as a character. I won't spoil much except to say that in the poem the social structure of Gawain's world plays a much more prominent part, while the film is more of a personal journey. Further, the poem (like many other romances) depends on the cycle of repeated events with contrasting challenges and results to make its point, while the film guts most of that to keep the story moving forward. I think trying to recreate the experience of the poem in the manner would be a disaster for most films. We could all have a talk about that if people want to dig into it deeper.

A note on the above however. Gawain's first words in the poem are:

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I am the weakest, the most wanting in wisdom, I know, And my life, if lost, would be least missed, truly. Only through your being my uncle, am I to be valued; No bounty but your blood in my body do I know. And since this affair is too foolish to fall to you, And I first asked it of you, make it over to me; And if I fail to speak fittingly, let this full court judge Without blame.

In the poem these words are Gawain being humble, as the poet and the characters around him shower him with praise and recognition for his knightly virtues. Lowery, on the other hand, takes these words at face value for his Gawain. This is the part that caught his imagination, as far as I can tell, and which formed the spine of his adaptation. Either one is annoyed at Lowery for doing this, or not. For me this is where he decided to start from, keeping so much of the feel and quality of the poem. Clearly it is not the poem. But it creates something unique and lovely and haunting from that inspiration... so I happily accept that is not a recreation of the poem, but another telling of the story.

7 hours ago, jmberry1s said:

It is really, REALLY, surreal, with a common theme from all but the initial act being the film almost demanding the audience ask "Okay, how real is this scene? How much should I take at face value?" From what I understand, this is common with the director

I think this goes beyond the director's own work (which I like). 

Whenever I read Le Morte D'Arthur or Sir Gawain and the Green Knight I always feel like I'm part-way into a dream state. Both tales have a dream-like quality in their telling that I find kine of trippy. That Lowery and his team captured that quality in the film is one of its many successes in my view.

The Green Knight is in theaters... but theaters might be weird in your area.

Thank you for all the replies!

I'm lucky that I have a wonderful gaming group, with many players. Too many! 

I'll be running a game better suited for a few number of players for the time being. I'm sure one day we'll have a stretch where lots of folks are not available. And when that day comes, we'll journey to mythic Britain...

What number of players have people found as the "sweet spot" for Pendragon?

I'm asking because I was planning on getting a game going, but some folks have moved back and my gaming group has swelled to six players plus GM, and I think that is going to hinder the game. So I'm polling on thoughts/experience people have.

Thanks!

10 hours ago, AndrewTBP said:

My FLGS, Games Paradise in Sydney Australia, has both The Coming Storm and The Eleven Lights on the shelf in hardback. One of each as of this morning 2021-06-15 Sydney time. 

Thank you for that. 

I'm in the US... and the US warehouses ran out of the books well before everyone else.

The website doesn't have full stock online, so I can't see if it is still there and what shipping would be, so I'm not sure shipping from Australia will be worth it.

But thank you sincerely for the tip!

Thanks for the replies!

When I look at the Virtues for British Christianity, honestly I see a more masculine version of Christianity compared to what becomes Roman Christianity. (Was simply "Christianity" in 3rd.) If Grail Christianity is supposed to acknowledge the divinely feminine in religion and life, I think I'll work from Roman Christianity and tweak it somehow. (I'll deal with it if it comes up!

All in all, I find myself looking back more to 3rd edition and Knights Adventurous. Everything is so much simpler. So, having a single Christianity with tweaks as needed for the Grail Christianity is the way I'll probably go.

As for the Grail/Christian/Pagan concerns:

The text of KAP from 1st edition on has made it clear that religious strife and struggle is not what the game is about, and tends to derail the game. The text is explicit about this. I'm in agreement with this. So the sidebar on p. 168 of the GPC is something I'm hoping I don't have to deal with. What I see in Le Morte is that the brotherhood of knighthood transcends differences of upbringing and religion. The bond of knighthood is the glue that binds the players knights and the game together. 

(I understand some people want to delve into matters of theology and religious friction! Go for it! I'm only talking about the game I want to run, as supported by the core rules as presented for 35 years.)

The sidebar is about "belligerent Pagan players. I think Greg was covering his ass, in case some players in someone's campaign threatened to tip things over. If I have this problem in my game I'll have canceled the campaign by then. The world of Arthurian Britain is full of magic -- Pagan, Christian, Pictish and so on.The knights in my game, like Malory's knights, will be open to most experiences and take from them what they will.

As for the differences of faith, I see it as a point of view for the Players through their knights. How to the players experience the events the witness and participate in? Each religion offers a different point of view. The sidebar information in the GPC is also covered in greater length in Knights Adventurous and KAP 4th.* It describes how the Pagans have their own view of the Grail, and I'm happy to have each faith have a "way in" to appreciating the Grail, even if one faith or another happens to have control of it at one time. "What does the Grail/Cauldron/Seder Plate mean to you?" is the question I'll put to any knight, no matter wha the faith.

(*As a side note: Fourth edition is simply 3rd and Knights Adventurous stapled awkwardly together + the magic system. As far as I can tell, apart from the magic system, the text in KAP 4th is identical to KAP 3rd and Knights Adventurous.)

I wanted to thank everyone for this conversation.

I came to ask about this very question, did a search, found this thread, and sorted out how I wanted to handle Lot, his age, and his advancement. 

Lovely notes, everyone!

We're winding down one game in my Monday Night Group, and I'm prepping notes to finally bring King Arthur Pendragon to the table. (For variety of reasons I wanted to make sure this was a game we played in person. And last year... not so much.)

After consideration I've decided to use The Adventure of the White Horse as my first adventure. As @Morienpoints out, it is a terrific example of using Traits and Skills, and has a lovely bit of magic in it. I think it will teach the "feel" I want for the campaign, both in terms of rules and setting. (The adventure is found in both the 3rd and 4th editions of the game.)

In the adventure as Greg wrote it up, there is a "Knight of the Old Way" who guides the characters (somewhat haphazardly!) on their adventure into a pagan ritual. The knight is a self-professed Grail Christian, and he is given in a little speech where he lays out how he became a Grail Christian and his thoughts on the philosophy. 

I'm guessing that a few of my players might be interested in pursuing this faith when they hear about it. (Because players often want something the moment it is introduced into a game!)

I've been poking around (the Internet, Knights Adventurous (3rd Ed), Book of Knights & Ladies (5th)) and can't find any mechanical support for Grail Christians. 

I know I can work up my own religious Virtues for Grail Christianity. But before I do that I was wondering if anyone knows if any of this was worked out anywhere.

Thanks!

Thank you. 

I just found this in the GPC on p. 152, A Wife for Earl Robert: 

Knights are needed to take gifts and to negotiate with her liege lord, who might be either the Earl of Rydychan or of Marlboro.

I will make the liege lord the Earl of Rydychan to introduce Rydychan to the players early on. This will pay off later in the Anarchy Period.

Thanks so much!

Got it. So once Earl Robert is married to Katherine, then White Horse Vale is part of Salisbury. But not util then. 

The confusion stands in 5.x because "The White Horse" in all three editions is listed as being in Salisbury in the description of White Horse. But I know now that is not the case yet and all is fine.

Moving on: Would you happen to know in what county White Horse Vale is a part of before Salisbury gains it through marriage? It looks like it might be in Silchester?

Super nerdy question: 

In the text of the KAP books, White Horse Vale and Uffington (and thus the White Chalk Horse itself) are always listed as being in Salisbury.

But when I look at maps in the books, White Horse Vale and Uffington (or Uffingham) seem to be clearly outside the bounds of Salisbury. 

Does anyone have any information or thoughts about this?

Thanks!

(I'm planning on using @Morien's suggestion of The Adventure of the White Horse for my group's first adventure, and I think I know how to get them into it easily. But I also want to make sure my geography is correct.

Thanks!

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Will they be "slightly corrected" to fit into the RQG canon?

I only care about canon to the degree that “Is this idea interesting to me?” — but out of curiosity what might some of these corrections be?

Thanks so much!

I think we are talking past each other.

But I am happy to wait from official word from Chaosium.

Reprinting Eleven Light will either happen or it won’t.

I think we can assume that any "reprinting" of the books assumes the trademarked name and branding will be changed.

The only question I had was whether the material would be in a printed book again.

By the time I had money set aside for these two books, only Coming Storm was still available in the US. I'd love to get a copy of Eleven Lights -- but not at eBay prices?

Will these books be available again in print some time in the future?

I want to add: The structure of Six Seasons is, I think, its core brilliance. For people who want to get into the tribal/anthro/cultural stuff I can't think of a better story spine than young members of a society transitioning from childhood to adulthood. The player characters are finding their way in their culture and among their gods just as the players are learning about the Orlanthi and their religion. It is a perfect opportunity for the GM and the players to find their way into the setting as bits of information are doled out as the characters learn more.

It is also a terrific way for the folks at the table to discover how their Glorantha will vary. "Well, this is how Orlanth's aid worked in this situation..." or "This is how this spell works here..." as the characters interact with magic for the first time.

I know that lots of folks have no interest in playing deep into the culture of Glorantha, and so this module might not be for them. (And since Glorantha supports many styles of story and play, that's great!) But for those who want exactly this, I think the story spine Montgomery built is really, really smart.

5 hours ago, klecser said:

Would Six Seasons in Sartar be a good read for new players to understand cultural interactions in Glorantha and the basic logic/execution of Heroquesting?

I am planning on using Six Seasons in Sartar to introduce my Monday Night Group to Glorantha precisely because I think it's fantastic "for new players to understand cultural interactions in Glorantha and the basic logic/execution of Heroquesting?"

It is a fantastic piece of work and can't wait to share it with my players.